G not on Olympic Team Canada...wow

[aziz]

Crosby connection or not, those are his statistics this year, right now, in the NHL. So who cares how much of that comes with playing on Crosby's wing? That's where he plays. That's where he will play in Sochi. They've found a chemistry that works.

 

the only thing that goes through my head when reading that, though, is you are giving the coaching staff an unmovable object.  kunitz is not a LW that the coach can decide where he goes, he is crosby's LW, and that's the only place he can be used.  he is comparatively out of his depth when looking at the rest of the roster.  there can be no mixing and matching of lines, because you have this one piece that only fits in one place.

 

from reading that article on the assembling of the american team, they were trying to avoid specialists, guys who were only strong in a particular area but didn't have the flexibility to do other things.  here, you have a hyper-specialist who is only usable on one very specific line.

 

like i said, i understand why they went with kunitz.  it could bite them in the tookas, though.  could've bit them if they *hadn't* taken him, too, so........

[radoran]

the only thing that goes through my head when reading that, though, is you are giving the coaching staff an unmovable object.  kunitz is not a LW that the coach can decide where he goes, he is crosby's LW, and that's the only place he can be used.  he is comparatively out of his depth when looking at the rest of the roster.  there can be no mixing and matching of lines, because you have this one piece that only fits in one place.

 

from reading that article on the assembling of the american team, they were trying to avoid specialists, guys who were only strong in a particular area but didn't have the flexibility to do other things.  here, you have a hyper-specialist who is only usable on one very specific line.

 

like i said, i understand why they went with kunitz.  it could bite them in the tookas, though.  could've bit them if they *hadn't* taken him, too, so........

 

I will say that previous to coming to Pittsburgh, he was in Anaheim with Perry and Getzlaf. That's where his 60-point season came from.

 

Your point that he is a serviceable winger able to step up his game with more talented linemates is valid. But he will have two guys who played center with him and found success on the squad. He's not necessarily tethered to Sid's diaper strings. They could easily go with Kunitz-Getzaf-Perry.

 

And I - like virtually everyone - will concede that Giroux is the "better player." The question then becomes the "better fit".

 

If G was still playing wing, IMO he'd be on this squad. Likely ahead of Crater, possibly Nash (although Nash has "history" with Team Canada which makes it hard for them to ignore - rightly or wrongly (wrongly IMO)).

 

Kunitz - especially since he can play with two different centers he has history with - was the "better fit" from Team Canada's perspective.

 

We'll find out whether they were right in Sochi.

[aziz]

I will say that previous to coming to Pittsburgh, he was in Anaheim with Perry and Getzlaf. That's where his 60-point season came from.

 

well, right.  a 60 point player.  you don't send 60 point guys to the olympics (rick nash notwithstanding).

 

crosby made him into a P/G+ player.  that's the only way he gets the nod over anyone.  

[Polaris922]

Very nice. One problem. There is not one GM in the league, not one (even Shero) who would give you Giroux for Kunitz (or Neal) straight up.

PS: and that's not bashing either Kunitz or Neal.

I'd agree on Kunitz because Giroux has a dynamic side we've seen before. If it were just for this season though, you would. Giroux hasn't been himself, and you don't take a guy who's not playing up to par into the Olympics. So guess what? A "general manager" just took Kunitz over Giroux.

As for Neal.. The way Giroux has been since Jagr's departure, I'm not so sure. I suppose that would come down to your roster. If I need a finisher I take Neal. If I need a playmaking center I take Giroux. And in that circumstance I'd absolutely make that trade straight up. Especially with Giroux's play last season and this season so far.

[Polaris922]

@flyercanuck

Yes, I do.

@aziz

Actually last season he led the majority if the year and ended up second despite Crosby missing 1/4 of the short season.

I don't argue that Giroux is the better player overall, but right now he's not performing like one. So that weighs in.

[aziz]

Actually last season he led the majority if the year and ended up second despite Crosby missing 1/4 of the short season.

 

crosby played in 36 of the 48 games, and put up 56 points in those 36 games.  think his linemate's +/- might've been helped out by that kind of offensive push?  and who was crosby's other winger?  was it dupius?  the guy who actually did end up with the league best +/-?  think that's a coincidence?  go back a year earlier where crosby missed a seriously significant amount of time and kunitz's +/- drops by 14 points in almost twice the number of games, and completely out of the top-whatever +/- in the league conversation.  tied for 47th in the league, if my quick counting is right.  coincidence? 

 

I don't argue that Giroux is the better player overall, but right now he's not performing like one. So that weighs in.

 

really don't think it does.  well, obviously the points he is putting up on crosby's line does, but that is "crosby puts up points with kunitz," not "kunitz puts up points."  put it this way:  if crosby were hurt and not playing in the olympics, chris kunitz would not even  be mentioned as being on the bubble of the bubble to make that team.

[JackStraw]

@Polaris922 - Giroux has been fine since Jagr's departure. He started slow last season and this but in both cases rebounded to be a PPG (or better, depending on the time frame) player.

And to be clear, I think Kunitz and Neal are both good players. I'd take either on the Flyers (although I'd have to swallow hard with Neal owing to his general peckerheadness). And I understand and even agree to an extent with the Kunitz selection. Personally I would have gone a different direction but there are always going to be these kinds of disagreements when it comes to picking an Olympic team.

[mojo1917]

Except right now Giroux is playing as well as anyone in the league.

 

@Polaris922 i don't know if I see many people here saying Giroux should be on the team in place of Kunitz.  If Claude Giroux goes down to injury i don't call up Rejean and ask him if Chris Kunitz is available for a trade to replace him... see.

 

I think the argument that's relevant is does Chris Kunitz deserve to be on the Olympic squad period ?

I think he's having a nice year and based on his play this is his shot baby , so good for him.  

You cannot, without being intellectually dishonest , say that Kunitz's presence on team Canada is irrespective of Sidney Crosby.  

If he were playing elsewhere he wouldn't have the numbers, he'd still be a good NHL player and maybe invited to a TC camp , maybe. Depending on who he played with.  

He would not be on this team if he played for Columbus or Phoenix ... see what people are saying here ? 

[B21]

Ah - finally. So we can all agree now that.....

 

...Kunitz is on the team - deservingly - because he puts up Olympic-worthy numbers when paired with Crosby...clearly in the eyes of Team Canada one of the two best center/winger pairings at their disposal along with Perry/Getzlaf.  To be clear, this does not mean Crosby wanted him on the team, lobbied for him to be on the team and/or demanded he be on the team (biggest crock of shite posted in a long time).

 

..Claudia Limp Wrists is better than Kunitz (sorry @Polaris922) although I would say Kunitz is a better fit for Crosby's wing (on any team) as Claudia and Sid play the same style.

 

...Claudia vs. Jackhole Neal is much more debateable. As another poster pointed out, different skills set but both bring a lot to the table and it's hard to argue with Neal's production over the last 3 seasons. 

 

...Claudia's snub more likely has to do with the inclusion of Nash and/or Carter than Kunitz and/or Team Canada's depth at center...err centre.

 

Now we can all be enemies again.

[mojo1917]

@B21 to be fair we don't know what was said to whom about what.

so this

o be clear, this does not mean Crosby wanted him on the team, lobbied for him to be on the team and/or demanded he be on the team (biggest crock of shite posted in a long time).

 

is as pure as pure speculation can get. Unless somehow you're on the team Canada selection committee.

 

i think Logan Couture has beef with the committee over Kunitz's presence but he was hurt for a little while this season, i watched him play the other night vs the Hawks and he looked great.

 

I would also say that MSL got shafted pretty hard with no foreplay. Whether or not Kuntz's selection precluded theirs is also not knowable by the masses.

 

I don't think the Giroux who was injured to start the year, skipped team Canada functions to attend to the team he is being paid to play for, played poorly for the first month of the season should have much to gripe about.  he did play very well for Team Canada last year in the worlds , maybe he thought that would be enough... there are too many good players available for TC for some very good players to be left off the team.

[JackStraw]

Ah - finally. So we can all agree now that.....

 

...Kunitz is on the team - deservingly - because he puts up Olympic-worthy numbers when paired with Crosby...clearly in the eyes of Team Canada one of the two best center/winger pairings at their disposal along with Perry/Getzlaf.  To be clear, this does not mean Crosby wanted him on the team, lobbied for him to be on the team and/or demanded he be on the team (biggest crock of shite posted in a long time).

 

..Claudia Limp Wrists is better than Kunitz (sorry @Polaris922) although I would say Kunitz is a better fit for Crosby's wing (on any team) as Claudia and Sid play the same style.

 

...Claudia vs. Jackhole Neal is much more debateable. As another poster pointed out, different skills set but both bring a lot to the table and it's hard to argue with Neal's production over the last 3 seasons. 

 

...Claudia's snub more likely has to do with the inclusion of Nash and/or Carter than Kunitz and/or Team Canada's depth at center...err centre.

 

Now we can all be enemies again.

In the interest of promoting peaceful co-existence on this board I will mention that someone on hfboards said that McKenzie and Dreger said (not sure where, haven't been able to find it) that the powers that be decided it came down to Duchene, MSL and Giroux. The three being similar players they felt they could only take one. So that would take Crosby's BFF off the hook for the Giroux "snub".

[nossagog]

@B21 to be fair we don't know what was said to whom about what.

so this

B21, on 08 Jan 2014 - 7:01 PM, said:

o be clear, this does not mean Crosby wanted him on the team, lobbied for him to be on the team and/or demanded he be on the team (biggest crock of shite posted in a long time).

 

is as pure as pure speculation can get. Unless somehow you're on the team Canada selection committee.

 

 

Actually, you've got this completely backwards.  Its not Pens fans that when out of their way to make a point up front that Crosby had nothing to do with Giroux not making the team.  Why would they, because no one in the media or team Canada eluded that any such thing happened. 

 

It was some people who felt that Giroux was snubbed, which could be correct, and hate Crosby, who have come up with this theory that the only reason on God's green earth that Giroux didn't make the team is because Crosby did his crybaby thing with team Canada and made it happen.  Now THAT is pure speculation, or as some would say, just blowing smoke out of their A$$E$. 

 

Some Pens fans just have a need to point out the obvious to people.

 

Watch, I can do the same thing.   Hey, did you hear that Claude Giroux said he wasn't going to play in the olympics if Crosby was on the team so he turned down his spot, what a baby.  Since you weren't in the selection committee room, I guess you can't prove it wrong.  Strawman lives.

Edited January 9, 2014 by nossagog

[Polaris922]

@aziz

I never said Crosby doesn't HELP Kunitz's numbers. I said Crosby is not responsible for them as in Kunitz still has to play hard, get to the right spots, and both feed to puck to Crosby and feed off him. His efforts are his own. His skill level has to be good to skate with Crosby. Many others have tried and failed. Many good players.

In my eyes Kunitz has been a more productive player than Giroux this season and last. The stats bear that out. Would Giroux be able to play on Sid's wing? I don't know. I doubt we ever will.

@B21

I've said Giroux is the better player, just not right now. He's struggled this season. As I said defending him many times that will change, but right now I take Kunitz over Giroux... On my fantasy team AND on Canada's.

[aziz]

In my eyes Kunitz has been a more productive player than Giroux this season and last. The stats bear that out.

 

yes.  in the same way --and for essentially the same reason-- that kevin stevens was a more productive player than steve yzerman and brett hull for a few seasons.

Edited January 9, 2014 by aziz

[B21]

@B21 to be fair we don't know what was said to whom about what.

so this

 

is as pure as pure speculation can get. Unless somehow you're on the team Canada selection committee.

 

 

One can speculate about a lot of things. I can speculate that Giroux was left off because Yzerman is getting back at the Flyers for their flirtation with Stamkos when he was an RFA.  Highly unlikely though.

 

We both know why some of the speculation is that Crosby somehow influenced Kunitz's selection beyond the fact that they have great chemistry on the ice.  Dead Horse Beating Warning...that reason is that since Crosby barked at the officials too much his first few seasons in the league and was made the "face" of the league without playing a game that it all must mean that he is some kind of spolied brat/arrogant prick off the ice who always has to get his way blah blah blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

 

Of course the reality is that he's about as humble as they come and you'd be hard pressed to find another player as dedicated to their craft.

 

So I'd bet both my nuts that no such "influence" took place.  But that sure makes for a convenient conspiracy theory for the haters.  Not enough real reasons to hate (rival, diving, best player in the world, Cup, etc.).  Nope.  We gotta make some things up.

[B21]

 

Watch, I can do the same thing.   Hey, did you hear that Claude Giroux said he wasn't going to play in the olympics if Crosby was on the team so he turned down his spot, what a baby.  Since you weren't in the selection committee room, I guess you can't prove it wrong.  Strawman lives.

 

I knew it! 

 

Well played.

[B21]

@B21

I've said Giroux is the better player, just not right now. He's struggled this season. As I said defending him many times that will change, but right now I take Kunitz over Giroux... On my fantasy team AND on Canada's.

 

Well put.  But I'd only take him on my fantasy team if I had Crosby, too.  For the chemistry.

[flyercanuck]

Ah - finally. So we can all agree now that.....

 

...Kunitz is on the team - deservingly - because he puts up Olympic-worthy numbers when paired with Crosby...clearly in the eyes of Team Canada one of the two best center/winger pairings at their disposal along with Perry/Getzlaf.  To be clear, this does not mean Crosby wanted him on the team, lobbied for him to be on the team and/or demanded he be on the team (biggest crock of shite posted in a long time).

 

..Claudia Limp Wrists is better than Kunitz (sorry @Polaris922) although I would say Kunitz is a better fit for Crosby's wing (on any team) as Claudia and Sid play the same style.

 

...Claudia vs. Jackhole Neal is much more debateable. As another poster pointed out, different skills set but both bring a lot to the table and it's hard to argue with Neal's production over the last 3 seasons. 

 

...Claudia's snub more likely has to do with the inclusion of Nash and/or Carter than Kunitz and/or Team Canada's depth at center...err centre.

 

Now we can all be enemies again.

 

It's only debateable if you're a Pens fan. Giroux has the 3rd most points in the last 3 seasons of all players...ahead of Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Kane etc...and especially way ahead of Neal.

[Polaris922]

yes. in the same way --and for essentially the same reason-- that kevin stevens was a more productive player than steve yzerman and brett hull for a few seasons.

When they find a way to make players perform right now as well as they did two years ago with the flip of a switch I'll agree Giroux should be there before Kunitz. And I'll also enjoy watching retired greats play like they're young again. But till then, the players selected have to be judged on their current play, not two years ago. And currently Kunitz is playing better.

[Polaris922]

It's only debateable if you're a Pens fan. Giroux has the 3rd most points in the last 3 seasons of all players...ahead of Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Kane etc...and especially way ahead of Neal.

The Olympics are next month, not the last three seasons... And where is his play right now?? Yeah... Thought so...

[King Knut]

They'll riot when he can't skate and when he has to bow out because his leg hasn't knitted yet.

Huh? Don't agree with that at all, a rusty Stamkos is still better than anyone not named Sidney. Stammer is so gifted there would have been riots in Canada had he been left off. We are talking about a generational star, a top 5 hockey player in the world....most deadly shot since Mike Bossy graced the ice....he makes it no questions asked.

[King Knut]

Room for both in 2010.

Bergeron.

[King Knut]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, after all its not like there are any future hall of fame players he could play between on this team Canada!

There are plenty of guys that are on team Canada because yzerman expects them to perform better with superior line mates. Kunitz and Carter come to mind. Bergeron too probably.

It is what it is. Hopefully G scores a hat trick every time we face the bolts from now on. In the mean time, I just hope for round robin exits for Timmo and Streit who are both too old to be screwing around with this many extra games in a year and who can both probably make their respective teams again in 4 years when they've retire from the NHL and have nothing better to do.

I am reading reporters talking about how Crater is a "natural wing" as a reason for his selection. Drafted as a centre, playing centre his entire life and playing primarily centre for the Flyers, he started playing wing more often only in the past few years. Hardly a "natural wing."

And many say Giroux is, of course, a "natural centre" - drafted as a wing, playing wing his entire life and playing primarily wing until he was put between Jagr and Hartnell two years ago. Hardly a "natural centre."

I don't at all mind guys trying to find reasons that Giroux was "snubbed" (a ridiculous line, given the talent present on the Canadian squad), but making **** up out of whole cloth is no way to do it. Hard to believe the revisionist history which is being played out by people who simply have to know better.

I do think that his injury over the summer - and failure to attend some Team Canada functions - may have played a role. That's to Giroux's credit, actually. He was more focused on the team that is paying him and of which he is the captain. That's his job.

I also think his "breakout" season with Jagr and then PPG regression without the Hall of Fame forward may have played a role. As it stands his 93-point season is an outlier more than an indication of his consistent play. Those numbers also skew the "past three seasons" numbers which many are also citing. His slow starts the past two years obviously didn't help either.

Again, Giroux is an "Olympic-worthy" player. It's just that Canada has a surfeit of "Olympic-worthy" players. In that situation there are going to be "Olympic-worthy" players who simply can't make the cut.

Has nothing to do with being "snubbed."

[jammer2]

   The one big thing Giroux brings to the table over Kunitz is creativity. Of course, he would not be a better fit on Crosby's line, and there is plenty of creativity to go around on Team Canada, but that ability to turn something out of nothing by following your hockey sense, that can come in handy in these types of tourny's. For instance, no way on God's green earth does Kunitz score the type of goal G scored last week, that no look back handed lazer beam into the upper corner...only a small handful of players in the league could think of scoring that type of goal, much less no look.

[King Knut]

My question would be what rank would Giroux have if he were playing on a line with Crosby? Or Getz? Or Carter?

Were talking about outing great players with great players. Putting good players with great players makes them better players. No duh.

Yzerman thinks that will work out better than putting great players with great players or that crozsby and g will beat each other up and hate being on the same team.

Either way I hope they lose. I'm sick of yzerman and I'm damn sim of Crosby whining his way through life.

It would be. But I do think a valid question is whether he's be 5th and 7th if he wasn't playing with Crosby.