G not on Olympic Team Canada...wow

[jammer2]

The Olympics are next month, not the last three seasons... And where is his play right now?? Yeah... Thought so...

 

 You mean the guy who has been the best player on his team....the guy who just lead his team to 10 straight home wins for the first time since 84-85 and Bob Frose graced our nets. The guy who has lead his team to a 9-2 record in their last 11 games. The Flyers are the hottest team in hockey and G is the main reason.

[jammer2]

@King Knut  You might be the only person in North America who thinks Stamkos is a bad pick. He is so much better at burying the puck than everyone else, you pick him and hope he's healthy, it's as simple as that. That wicked one timer can turn any game into a joke, even a gold medal game, you don't turn your back on that unless he's not even close to being ready, which is not the case, he is skating, probably as I type.

[mojo1917]

The Olympics are next month, not the last three seasons... And where is his play right now?? Yeah... Thought so...

I think you ( the rhetorical you) would be hard pressed to find a guy playing better much than Giroux has been the last 30 games. He's put up 32 points, while playing in all situations. The slow start and skipped TC activities hurt his Olympic chances no question.

holy smokes I didn't know Kunitz had 23 goals....

I won't have any problem rooting against him if they play team USA.

[JackStraw]

The Olympics are next month, not the last three seasons... And where is his play right now?? Yeah... Thought so...

I believe you- if you thought that over the last 27 games Giroux is putting up points at a rate that works out to 97 pts over a full season. Over the last month and then some, he has been playing as well as he ever has, and without Jagr.

Edit: Even with his slow start Giroux has 12 more points and only 2 fewer goals than Jeff Carter, who is on the Olympic team.

Edited January 9, 2014 by JackStraw

[Polaris922]

@jammer2

 

I'll play your game..  LOL   Yes, the guy who has two points in his last five games compared to Kunitz's nine.  I'll repeat what I've been saying once more...  Giroux is a really good player and I am not taking that away from him.  Kunitz has just been better right now.  You don't have to like it.  It just IS.  

 

@JackStraw

 

Actually he has 28 points his last 27 games which works out to an 85 point season.  You can stretch that to 88 if you add a 28th game back.  In the same frame though, you can total that up to 32 points for Kunitz in the last 27 games which works out to 97 points for the season.  So tell me again how that makes him the better player right now?  Or better yet, how about Neal with his 35 points in only 25 games, which equates to a 115 point season...  

 

 

Gents I'm GLAD Giroux has found his form again, even if he is a rival.  I'm glad you guys are getting to watch fun hockey and there's a contention in the air again.  There's something to look forward to for us all I'm sure.  But anybody who says Kunitz is only going because he's Crosby's BFF is either joking or refusing to look at the facts.  That's just ignorance.  The man plays hockey the way we all like to see it played.  And he's earned his way here.  Does Crosby's talent on the ice with him help him?   Sure it does.  But no man is a one man goal scoring machine now...  NOBODY.   Do you think Stamkos is only as good as he is because of MSL?  Or is it vice versa?  Everyone needs a team to play with, and the more skilled the players around you the better you have the potential to perform.  But you still have to perform.  It doesn't get handed to you.  

 

Robby Brown was a guy who I felt NEEDED a Lemieux to thrive in the league.  Kunitz is not a Robby Brown.  Not even close. 

[JackStraw]

Actually he has 28 points his last 27 games which works out to an 85 point season

 

Well, I got that 97 points projection from Seravalli's article which was based on the 27 games prior to last night's (Devils) game (31 pts in 27 games). Based on his last 27 games (counting tonight's) he would be on pace for 88 points (29 in 27). So we're splitting hairs here, depending on the exact time frame. The larger point is that he is playing at an elite level now and has been for some time. And he's not playing with the best player in the world.

 

But anybody who says Kunitz is only going because he's Crosby's BFF is either joking or refusing to look at the facts.  That's just ignorance.

 

Well, there are a lot of people saying that. And most of them are not Flyers fans. I guess there are a lot of ignorant people outside of Pittsburgh.

[Polaris922]

Well, I got that 97 points projection from Seravalli's article which was based on the 27 games prior to last night's (Devils) game (31 pts in 27 games). Based on his last 27 games (counting tonight's) he would be on pace for 88 points (29 in 27). So we're splitting hairs here, depending on the exact time frame. The larger point is that he is playing at an elite level now and has been for some time. And he's not playing with the best player in the world.

Well, there are a lot of people saying that. And most of them are not Flyers fans. I guess there are a lot of ignorant people outside of Pittsburgh.

There are plenty if ignorant people here too . Reality is, if anyone just had to be on the ice when Sid is to score the way Kunitz is scoring, you'd be out there making Kunitz's money. Kunitz isn't popular, so he gets the shaft. Whomever has him in fantasy hockey please send him to me, your bag of pucks is waiting in trade...

As for splitting hairs... The stats are the stats. Neal and Kunitz have better numbers than the greatest player in the world. till you add MSL to the conversation Giroux doesn't belong. I get it that he's the best Flyers player so it's hard to hear.

[JackStraw]

There are plenty if ignorant people here too . Reality is, if anyone just had to be on the ice when Sid is to score the way Kunitz is scoring, you'd be out there making Kunitz's money. Kunitz isn't popular, so he gets the shaft. Whomever has him in fantasy hockey please send him to me, your bag of pucks is waiting in trade...

As for splitting hairs... The stats are the stats. Neal and Kunitz have better numbers than the greatest player in the world. till you add MSL to the conversation Giroux doesn't belong. I get it that he's the best Flyers player so it's hard to hear.

 

How does Neal have better stats than Giroux when Giroux has more points than Neal? 

 

Let me put it this way. There are players who get selected because they are who (and what) they are. Crosby being one obvious example. Toews another. These guys are automatic. Tavares is on the team because they want Tavares, not a guy who plays well with another guy. Then there are guys who get selected for some other reason. Maybe they fill a role and/or are having great seasons. Kunitz is one of those guys. And the reason he is having a great season is because he is playing (very well) with Crosby. If Kunitz is on the Flyers, and has been playing on Giroux's wing this year, he's still Kunitz, still the same player, but he's not on Canada's Olympic team. He's not that good, on his own, to be selected.

 

And it's not at all hard for me to hear that Giroux is not on Canada's team. I'm not rooting for Canada. I would rather he he wasn't on the team, since my interest in Giroux is pretty much limited to how he performs for the Flyers. Let him use the fact of being passed for motivation the rest of the season. On the other hand, I could care less what Bobby Ryan does for Ottawa but I would want him on the US Olympic team.

 

And finally, even if I was rooting for Canada, I would have no real problem with Kunitz being selected- precisely for the reason that I (and others) are saying that he was selected. You know he has chemistry with Crosby. And whoever Crosby plays with figures to get plenty of ice time and plenty of scoring opportunities. If it was my call I wouldn't have picked him, but I totally see the logic in his selection.

 

By the way, if you think Crosby doesn't have a big impact on Kunitz' performance check these stats from last season:

 

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=3&withagainst=true&season=2012-13&sit=5v5

 

Kunitz with Crosby is on the ice for 1.833 GF per 20 minutes. Without Crosby he's on the ice for 0.803 GF per 20 minutes. So with Crosby, Kunitz is on the ice for a little more than one GF per 20 minutes. That's a pretty significant difference.

Edited January 9, 2014 by JackStraw

[aziz]

You can stretch that to 88 if you add a 28th game back.  In the same frame though, you can total that up to 32 points for Kunitz in the last 27 games which works out to 97 points for the season.  So tell me again how that makes him the better player right now?

 

that's easy.  one of them has a generational talent feeding him impossible passes and the other doesn't.

 

seriously?  are you really playing this willfully blind game?  i dealt with this in highschool.  "john cullen, kevin stevens, and rob brown are awesome, just look at their stats."  yeah, because mario freaking lemieux was putting pucks on their sticks.  if chris kunitz were traded this offseason, 60 points would be a stand out year for him for the rest of his career.  60 points WAS his standout season before pittsburgh.  actually, worse, 61 points was his standout season, including pittsburgh, outside of the seasons where crosby was healthy.  the dude is a 55 point 6/7 forward when he doesn't skate with the best player in the world.  

[aziz]

Reality is, if anyone just had to be on the ice when Sid is to score the way Kunitz is scoring, you'd be out there making Kunitz's money.

 

no, not just anyone.  no one is saying that kunitz is complete garbage.  we're saying he is one of those almost-anonymous 50-60 point players that can be elevated to all-star production by the presense of a generational hockey player on his line.  he is of a class with franzen, weiss, erat, desharnais, justin williams.  very good hockey players all, but by no means on the "OMG he's awesome" list.  the only thing that elevates him beyond that crowd is 87.  trade kunitz to boston and you could have brad marchand scoring 85 points.

[brelic]

well, right.  a 60 point player.  you don't send 60 point guys to the olympics (rick nash notwithstanding).

 

crosby made him into a P/G+ player.  that's the only way he gets the nod over anyone.  

 

Yeah, that bothers me (Nash). ONCE in his career did he get more than 69 points. Other than that, he's a 60-point player. Granted, half of those points are goals, and most of his career was spent in the blackhole of hockey, but to me he's an overrated one-dimensional player.

 

But if he scores 6 goals and 0 assists and helps lead Canada to gold, it's all good

 

I was thinking about this yesterday that this is the first Team Canada that I can remember not having a Flyer. There were the Richards/Carter years, Gagne was there once (wasn't he?), then prior to that, there were the Lindros years. Maybe I'm mixing up Olympic squads with international squads... 

 

But can anyone else remember the last time there was not a Flyer on Team Canada?

[Polaris922]

@JackStraw

The stats you were focused on at that point were points per game. So Neal was well ahead of Giroux.

@aziz

I think there's a large gap between what you guys think it takes to be on Crosby's wing and what I think it takes. You guys keep pointing out that his stats drop without Crosby as your argument, and that's something I've never argued.

I think you provide a pretty good example for me actually. Rob Brown was a guy who was nothing without Lemieux. Kevin Stevens was still quite a good power forward without Lemieux. Sure his numbers would have been lower, but until his face was broken, Stevens produced well with anyone he was on the ice with. Because of Stevens' abilities, he excelled even more with Lemieux there.

That's how I see Kunitz. No point in discussing further really. I think Kunitz has to bust his tail to be on the ice with Crosby, and some of you think he just figure skates decently and Crosby bounces pucks off him into the net. Exaggeration I know

So is Getzlaf there because if Perry or is it Perry because of Getzlaf?

And is it Kane because if Toews or Toews because of Kane?

So next time we have a Lindros-Leclair discussion, I'll need you to remind me which one was the good player made great by the presence of the other. Because nobody is allowed to take credit for their stats if they're skating with a "generational talent".

[King Knut]

Why are you ignoring what I'm saying?

That's just being difficult.

He's obviously a great pick. No one is suggesting Stamkos isn't a great player.

BUT, Can he play yet?

No one knows. That's the point.

That's all I'm saying.

@King Knut You might be the only person in North America who thinks Stamkos is a bad pick. He is so much better at burying the puck than everyone else, you pick him and hope he's healthy, it's as simple as that. That wicked one timer can turn any game into a joke, even a gold medal game, you don't turn your back on that unless he's not even close to being ready, which is not the case, he is skating, probably as I type.

[brelic]

He's obviously a great pick. No one is suggesting Stamkos isn't a great player.
BUT, Can he play yet?
No one knows. That's the point.
That's all I'm saying.

 

You're right. NObody knows that.

 

But he will have a spot reserved for him until the very last minute. He's *that* good.

[King Knut]

Here's my POV on the whole chemistry pairing thing:

Perry/Getz, Crosby/Kunitz, Kane/Toews... These guys have great chemistry and should be paired together... Against Diluted NHL talent on a smaller ice surface.

Against condensed all star level talent from around the world on an international rink, are they still the best choices or should you take the risk of putting together potentially better pairings on that kind of a stage suited to a more wide open game?

I don't know the answer to that. I do know that scoring a bunch of goals in the NHL is not necessarily as difficult as scoring a bunch of goals in the Olympics well maybe against Slovakia and Getmany (with all due respect to flyers and former flyers from those countries). But against Finland, Sweden, team USA, team Russia, and the Czechs?

It's actually a bit of a bold move to assume NHL pairings will be as effective on the world stage.

Pretty confident actually, but still banking on chemistry is a risk when you change this much about the game and opponents.

@JackStraw

The stats you were focused on at that point were points per game. So Neal was well ahead of Giroux.

@aziz

I think there's a large gap between what you guys think it takes to be on Crosby's wing and what I think it takes. You guys keep pointing out that his stats drop without Crosby as your argument, and that's something I've never argued.

I think you provide a pretty good example for me actually. Rob Brown was a guy who was nothing without Lemieux. Kevin Stevens was still quite a good power forward without Lemieux. Sure his numbers would have been lower, but until his face was broken, Stevens produced well with anyone he was on the ice with. Because of Stevens' abilities, he excelled even more with Lemieux there.

That's how I see Kunitz. No point in discussing further really. I think Kunitz has to bust his tail to be on the ice with Crosby, and some of you think he just figure skates decently and Crosby bounces pucks off him into the net. Exaggeration I know

So is Getzlaf there because if Perry or is it Perry because of Getzlaf?

And is it Kane because if Toews or Toews because of Kane?

So next time we have a Lindros-Leclair discussion, I'll need you to remind me which one was the good player made great by the presence of the other. Because nobody is allowed to take credit for their stats if they're skating with a "generational talent".

[King Knut]

Fine and good. Jeff Carter that good too?

There are a lot of magic beans on yzerman's team as I see it. A lot of "I hope this works!" Honestly, I'm a yank. I hope it doesn't work.

I'd prefer an injured Stamkos who can't skate and a slumping carter who is yet to wake up yet this year playing for Canada.

You're right. NObody knows that.

But he will have a spot reserved for him until the very last minute. He's *that* good.

[aziz]

@Polaris922

Actually, I think leclair was a very good player made great by lindros. And have had some pretty tough confrontations here about that. Still, it's a very analogous situation for me.

[brelic]

Fine and good. Jeff Carter that good too?

There are a lot of magic beans on yzerman's team as I see it. A lot of "I hope this works!" Honestly, I'm a yank. I hope it doesn't work.

I'd prefer an injured Stamkos who can't skate and a slumping carter who is yet to wake up yet this year playing for Canada.

 

 

But that's just it. If Stamkos isn't ready, they'll find someone to replace him. Probably MSL. Could be Giroux.

 

I'm also puzzled by Carter and Nash, but both of those guys are pure goal scorers, moreso than MSL and Giroux. That's the direction they chose, and we'll find out soon enough if it was the right call.

 

I don't know if Canada is a favourite to win Gold, though as defending Gold medallists, it's not their tournament to lose... they will have a tough fight to win because there are some very good squads.

[mojo1917]

And is it Kane because if Toews or Toews because of Kane?

 

They aren't playing on the same line this year.

It's Toews Sharp and Hossa.

Kane is on Team USA

Kane has been playing with Zeus and Versteeg and sometimes stays out on his off wing with Saad and Shaw. 

 

And seriously if Chris Kunitz played for Toronto would he be in the discussion for playing wing for team Canada ?

I think the answer there is an unequivocal no.  It does speak well for him that he can scale his game up to a level where he's successful with elite talent,  and while he is a legitimate NHL player, his talent is not elite.  Would he be an all star selection ? or a guy that you just want on your team because he plays well ?  He falls into the second category for me and most people outside of Pgh.  

 

I also have no problem with Giroux being stung by his omission from the team.  Having been the last player cut for a Mason-Dixon all-star team I can tell you ( 30 years later ) that feeling sucks.  And it wasn't  maybe my last chance to play on the best team in the world...

Edited January 9, 2014 by mojo1917

[Clarke2Leach]

Just my 2 cents.  Kunitz is on because he's a linemate of Sid's and is exceedingly good at that.  If Malkin was Canadian, Neal would probably be on the team too.  With no training camp, and Sid being such a dud last Olympics (save for one lucky gold-medal winning goal), they're going the chemistry route because Canada hasn't faired well on International ice in recent Olympics.  Having said all that, if you are on the ice with Sid, where do you think the defensive focus is?  How much easier is it to find time and space when everyone is looking at 87?  Same goes for Neal with Malkin.  Plus Neal is a meathead and Canada doesn't need his sociopathic behavior in one-game-takes-all situations.  Special teams are huge in these tournaments.

 

Carter is on because the guy is way better than anyone seems to want to give him credit for.  He skates so well and has become very responsible defensively.  Having said that, since Giroux is a natural RW and Carter is a natural C, I would have gone with Giroux or MSL.  It all depends how they're going to use Carter before this makes total sense.  Also consider Carter doesn't take stupid penalties based on emotion - either because he has none, or is really good at keeping them in check.  Or he's high.

 

Nash is a nice player, but he certainly doesn't deserve to be on a National team this year unless he was Latvian.  Not sure what he brings this year that MSL can't and don't say size, because that hasn't been an issue for at least 10 years.  Canada does reward players who have taken a lot of turns at the World Championships, so Nash may have benefitted from that.

 

If you look at the Globe and Mail's All Snub team, you see how deep Canada is at forward.  Defense and Goal - not so much (I would have had Fleury and/or Mason on the B team ahead of Reimer and/or Bernier).

 

Canada’s All-Snub Team

Forward lines

Hall-Thornton-Giroux

Neal-Couture-St. Louis

E. Staal-Seguin-Eberle

Ladd-M. Richards-Marchand

Skinner J. Williams

Defence

Giordano-Seabrook

M. Staal-Boyle

Beauchemin-Letang

Campbell-Phaneuf

Goal

Bernier

Crawford

Reimer

[B21]

Lots of statistical cherry picking going on. To set the record straight, for this season....

 

Giroux: 44 GP / 13G / 26A / 39 PTS / .89 PPG / 73 Point Season (Projected)

 

Kunitz: 45 GP / 23G / 25A / 48 PTS / 1.07 PPG / 88 Point Season (Projected)

 

Neal: 25 GP / 16G / 19A / 35 PTS / 1.4 PPG / 115 Point Season (Projected)

 

Since the last 10-11 games have been tossed around as examples of one's greatness...

 

Giroux: 6G / 7A / 13 PTS

 

Kunitz: 6G / 9A / 15 PTS

 

Neal: 7G / 9A / 16 PTS

 

Neal missed most of October and early November.  Didn't seem to hamper his production they way Giroux missing pre-season has been the most tossed around excuse for a fifteen game goalless drought (1 goal in 18 games).  That can't simply be "discarded".  What's to keep one from taking away Neal's first 5 games back when he had only 3 points in 5 games. We can play that game, too. Want to base Giroux's point projection on his last 10 games? Still loses out to Neal and Kunitz in the numbers game.

 

Last 3 seasons Giroux is 1.07 PPG.  Neal is 1.05.  So it is debateable on those two...especially since Giroux's PPG has regressed each of the last two seasons since his 93 point campaign and Neal's has increased since his first point-per-game season that same year.

 

As for "hottest team in hockey"....Flyers and Pens are both 8-2 in their last 10.  We are 9-2 in our last 11 as well.  Actually 12-2 in our last 14. 

 

Since the Flyers 1-7 start they are 22-10-4.  That's an impressive 36 game record.  So is 25-10-1. Guess who's last 36 game record that is?    And with a team that was often playing 7-8 AHLers.  22-10-4...and lost 3 points in the standings to the injury-riddled division leaders.

 

What? You guys didn't think Pens fans did their homework?

[mojo1917]

It all depends how they're going to use Carter before this makes total sense.  Also consider Carter doesn't take stupid penalties based on emotion - either because he has none, or is really good at keeping them in check.  Or he's high.

 

Laughin my ass off at this . i have to clean my keyboard (coffee spray ) thanks ! 

+1

[B21]

It's only debateable if you're a Pens fan. Giroux has the 3rd most points in the last 3 seasons of all players...ahead of Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Kane etc...and especially way ahead of Neal.

 

A two and half season sample of 1.05 and climbing versus 1.07 and falling certainly is debateable.  It's only not debateble if one is a Flyer's fan.

[B21]

  If Malkin was Canadian, Neal would probably be on the team too. 

 

Or if Neal were Russian.

 

Or if they were both Swiss...or German.

 

Good point though I think Neal has a way way way better case than Kunitz on his own merits.

[Clarke2Leach]

A two and half season sample of 1.05 and climbing versus 1.07 and falling certainly is debateable.  It's only not debateble if one is a Flyer's fan.

Again, when Giroux is on the ice, the other team is focusing on Giroux.  When Neal and Malkin are on the ice, the first check isn't Neal.  Stats are stats and reality is reality.

 

If Neal wasn't such an asshole, I'd be happy to have him as a Flyer, though.