Either it's time to blow the D up... or the Chief has lost the room

[jammer2]

  I have the funny feeling that as Trouba gets better and better, the Jets will be looking to deal Enstrom. He may not be the #1 star d-man we have been seeking, but an upgrade over the crap we have now, and don't think he would be overly expensive...something to ponder anyways.

[OccamsRazor]

He may not be the #1 star d-man we have been seeking

 

Dude at this point looking at this pettiful Dunit...i'll be happy if they were to finally just get a legit #3....#1 and #2 they have to find later and we already know teams ain't going to be giving up no #1 Dman without selling the ranch.... so lets start small....lets target a well rounded #3 it would be a plus on this squad.

[ruxpin]

Agree FC...

Prospects are prospects and you never now what is going to happen. cough cough: Fluke Schenn. The Flyers need that true #1 dman and I am not sure one exists via trade. I guess any trade is possible but I think it would take another blow up to acquire that #1 guy.

All I'm saying is that only five years ago or so we traded for a #1 defenseman. Look very closely at what that took in terms of draft picks, prospects and players.

Some--not all--of our dearth of prospects results from that trade (and others).

Now, apparently that was made because the front office thought we were close then so they made a conscious decision to sacrifice the seasons we're suffering through now.

So, while we are all talking about trading for a #1 defenseman, keep in mind that the #1 we got for that price was comparatively old. Also keep in mind that we are NOT otherwise close.

I'm not sure I want to trade 2 first round picks, Laughlin (or B. Schenn) , and Ghost for, say, Subban.

Not to play on a team where he would be the ONLY defenseman.

I think we may be stuck with the patience route with picks and prospects and meanwhile try to upgrade the defense incrementally by replacing mediocre defensemen with mediocre defensemen and just hope the new ones fit a little better.

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

 

At least we'd (likely) get more than a year and a half out of Subban. Though he wouldn't help our defensive woes a whole lot.

[The Quigster]

 Whats needed here is solid "D" talent. Tough enough to do the job,(clear the crease) fundamentally sound skills,North American (right attitude)player. Leadership skills would be a plus. That could be a "D" man or forward,somebody not afraid of his shadow. Lauridsen could be an improvement? How about McGinn? Couldn't hurt.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

At least we'd (likely) get more than a year and a half out of Subban. Though he wouldn't help our defensive woes a whole lot.

Exactly.

So the point remains: to what purpose, ultimately? So we have a #1 defenseman on a really bad team at that point and no draft picks to improve.

Then

Think in terms of what we gave up for Pronger and maybe add something to it. Leaving cap issues or the other team's willingness aside, how many (if any) names jump to your mind as worth that?

Once we put together that base list we can play the salary cap and other team's willingness game

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

 

I've been saying since 2007 that I'd be quite happy with letting the team develop through youth without going after the big FA signing every year. A few years of sucking and reaping the benefits through the draft. 

 

This team could very well have Stamkos/Doughty/Pietrangelo instead of the Briere buyout and Tavares/Duchene/OEL instead of the Pronger caphit. Of course that would take patience though. And people will say look at Edmonton. For one they've had the misfortune of getting similiar players every year, with no impact defencemen or goalies. And I'll still take Taylor Hall or RNH over Danny Briere. If only Philly management could look past now.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

I've been saying since 2007 that I'd be quite happy with letting the team develop through youth without going after the big FA signing every year. A few years of sucking and reaping the benefits through the draft.

This team could very well have Stamkos/Doughty/Pietrangelo instead of the Briere buyout and Tavares/Duchene/OEL instead of the Pronger caphit. Of course that would take patience though. And people will say look at Edmonton. For one they've had the misfortune of getting similiar players every year, with no impact defencemen or goalies. And I'll still take Taylor Hall or RNH over Danny Briere. If only Philly management could look past now.

Oh, agree. And my point wasn't aimed at you. If anything, I knew you'd help drive home the point.

In any case, as painful as it will be in the short term, it may be even more important now than usual to have patience.

We're not on any threshold and there really is nothing in particular to rush to.

[ruxpin]

But for the fun of it, can anyone name a handful of defensemen for whom you'd want to trade what we gave up for Pronger. I don't think I can.

After that we can play, "for what legitimate purpose?"

[JackStraw]

But for the fun of it, can anyone name a handful of defensemen for whom you'd want to trade what we gave up for Pronger. I don't think I can.

 

I don't know that I'd really want to, but a few that I'd at least consider:

 

OEL

Pietrangelo

Doughty

Seth Jones

 

Thing is, I'm not sure that what we gave up for Pronger would get you any of those guys anyway.

[ruxpin]

Thing is, I'm not sure that what we gave up for Pronger would get you any of those guys anyway.

 

Yeah, see that's what I'm thinking, too.  

 

I realize on the one hand we were trading for a bonafide future Hall of Famer.  (maybe some would disagree there, but at the very least "in the conversation).

 

On the other hand,  he was what, 34 at the time?  So compared to the guys you list, he was much much older.  

 

So I'm thinking the price would go up because potentially you could be getting any of them for a very long time.   Your list is fairly good.  Even YOU put the caveat, though, that you don't know that you'd really want to.

 

And that's just for the Pronger package.  I suspect it would be more than that.  And I, too, am not sure I want to gut the current team AND future picks, etc. for something that gets us no closer.  IMO, we'd be getting one of these really great players just to waste them for years on a really bad team.

[radoran]

I would comment on the Pronger trade, but our friend @davies and I got into such an impassioned discussion about it back when it happened that the bartender was getting ready to separate us

 

My point then: Cup - good trade, No Cup - bad trade.

 

At least they got 54 games for the Phantoms out of Ryan Dingle, so there's that, too.

 

He's a serviceable winger in the Italian Super League now.

[doom88]

But for the fun of it, can anyone name a handful of defensemen for whom you'd want to trade what we gave up for Pronger. I don't think I can.

After that we can play, "for what legitimate purpose?"

Weber, maybe Duncan Keith. That's it.

[ruxpin]

Weber, maybe Duncan Keith. That's it.

That's interesting. I actually had Keith in my head when discussing this. Clearly, that's but going to happen. Weber may actually be a possibility. Not sure if actually do it, but at least we're legitimately in that ballpark

[doom88]

That's interesting. I actually had Keith in my head when discussing this. Clearly, that's but going to happen. Weber may actually be a possibility. Not sure if actually do it, but at least we're legitimately in that ballpark

I would, those guys just don't become available. Without going into the firestorm again, I still agree with trading for Pronger.

[murraycraven]

I would take OEL over most of what has been listed honestly but that is not happening.

[OccamsRazor]

I would take OEL over most of what has been listed honestly but that is not happening.

 

Totally agree...this is the kid to break the bank for he had 2 goals last night in over 26 minutes played stats for the season (51 gp 8 gls 20 ast 28 pts +3)...good news is i read comparisons of Hagg to OEL....let's pray he turns into this type.

Edited January 30, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[ruxpin]

I would, those guys just don't become available. Without going into the firestorm again, I still agree with trading for Pronger.

My phone does crazy things when I type and it hides my meaning.

I would do Keith. I meant the Hawks are not going to trade him.

As for Weber I just think it would be a waste of him (Keith too).

You start with a lousy team. You trade two years of number ones and some prospects /players.

Now you have a lousy team, a great defenceman and no picks or prospects to build around him in his prime.

That's why I said I'm not sure if do it. It wasn't about the player. The "I'm not sure" was because I know I'd be tempted

[doom88]

My phone does crazy things when I type and it hides my meaning.

I would do Keith. I meant the Hawks are not going to trade him.

As for Weber I just think it would be a waste of him (Keith too).

You start with a lousy team. You trade two years of number ones and some prospects /players.

Now you have a lousy team, a great defenceman and no picks or prospects to build around him in his prime.

That's why I said I'm not sure if do it. It wasn't about the player. The "I'm not sure" was because I know I'd be tempted

Draft picks are usually crap shots in the NHL anyway, but you hold on to the rest when moving first rounders. Homer and the scouts have a proven ability to find useful UFA guys like Read, Bobrovsky, and Gus. Picks also take a long time to matter, so the core growing with the new defenseman would have been drafted three years prior, or so. Definitely risky, but no more so than drafting where slotted IMO.

Again, for that truly elite #1 defenseman. Accept no substitutions.

[JackStraw]

good news is i read comparisons of Hagg to OEL....let's pray he turns into this type.

 

From what I've seen, Hagg is a similar type of player as OEL. Plays a similar style. But the odds of him being as good as OEL... well, that's a long shot to say the least.

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

I may not make it through the whole game tonight but will try.  

 

The trade versus patient development theme is "old hat" for this board but like the Plague it comes back after every losing streak.  I think Snider-Homer are an impatient duo. Moreover, I worry about this organization's ability to draft/develop outside of forward. You put those things together and what do you get--lot's of frustration.

 

The Vinny deal may be a real nail in Homer's coffin. I concur with Pinnacio's assessment--this is bad in terms of current productivity and it is even worse in terms of denying playing time to up-and-comers. 

 

Our franchise's performance since the first strike has been a roller coaster. And I don't think it is a coaching issue. It is a management problem. 

 

Best,

 

Howie

[AndyS]

I dont get it... I understand the frustration but when is it good enough to just realize the Team in not good enough?   The defense is barely a NHL quality defense and they are simply terrible.   Terrible...

 

If this group is already tuning out the Coach they should all be sent packing.   I do not think it is the Coach, I do not think it is the Captain but I do think they simply are not a good Team.  That is on the GM... he is the one that created the revolving door of players.

 

This team is biding its time until the kids (the D-men they drafted last year, plus Ghost) are ready.

 

In a couple years our D will look much different, Lord willing.

[OccamsRazor]

From what I've seen, Hagg is a similar type of player as OEL. Plays a similar style. But the odds of him being as good as OEL... well, that's a long shot to say the least.

 

 

Hey just to see his name in the same sentence with the Flyers history of Dmen it's a positive....not a lot but i'll take it so stop raining on mu parade it's all i got!!!! 

 

And realistically the chances of his translating i know are slim to none cause rinks styles can change a lot.

 

I would however like to see the Flyers bring him over and start his adaptation period sooner than later it worked well for Lindholm and the Ducks i think it can pay dividends for Hagg.

 

I do know that OEL and Lindholm were higher picks but still i'm crossing my fingers. Hagg at one time was a 1st rounder projection and like Coots was they both fell...maybe it will be the Flyers fortune if....IF they hold on to and actually develop the guys you know Homer ain't patient. I pray he has learned from past mistakes.

 

Who knows Flyers could use some good luck.

Edited January 30, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[ruxpin]

Greetings:

 

I may not make it through the whole game tonight but will try.  

 

The trade versus patient development theme is "old hat" for this board but like the Plague it comes back after every losing streak.  I think Snider-Homer are an impatient duo. Moreover, I worry about this organization's ability to draft/develop outside of forward. You put those things together and what do you get--lot's of frustration.

 

The Vinny deal may be a real nail in Homer's coffin. I concur with Pinnacio's assessment--this is bad in terms of current productivity and it is even worse in terms of denying playing time to up-and-comers. 

 

Our franchise's performance since the first strike has been a roller coaster. And I don't think it is a coaching issue. It is a management problem. 

 

Best,

 

Howie

 

I just posted this on the other thread to jammer, but I'll repeat it here.  They'll make a trade just to give the appearance of trying.   The last thing they want is to look like there's no hope and they certainly don't want to be honest about "it may take a couple years."  It's about ticket and merchandise sales.  Nothing boosts both more than bringing in some big name whether he fits or doesn't.  The Facebook and HFBoards crowd will keep hitting the feeder bar and eat it up.

[Ladyneat]

I am definitely in the blow up the D crowd and I am also in the its ok if we suck for 3 years if it means we grow our own players.  I am truly tired of other team sloppy 2nd's I understand taking a chance on a low price guy to get whatever is left out of hi but when almost your entire D is made up of those guys it is just not going to work.  I took my Dad to the game on Tuesday watching away from the camera view is highly enlightening.