Giroux? And What to do next?

phlfly · January 25, 2014

So I would like to put out his thread for our long argue about Giroux. Keep or Trade? Is he that Guy or just complementary player ( funny to say while writing this Giroux just score against Boston ).

Lets face it (Boston just score 5th one :angry: ) Giroux had only one good year when Jagr was played for Flyers, and he will make 10 mil next and 9 mil cap hit.

Let see his performance if he is worth this money:

2009-2010 FLYERS 82 16 31 47 -9 23 8 0 2 145 11.0

2010-2011 FLYERS 82 25 51 76 20 47 8 3 5 169 14.8

2011-2012 FLYEers 77 28 65 93 6 29 6 0 5 242 11.6

2012-2013 FLYERS 48 13 35 48 -7 22 6 1 2 137 9.5

2012-2013 EISBAREN BERLIN-GERMANY 9 4 15 19 6

2012-2013 CANADA-WC-A 8 3 5 8 4 12 2 0 0

2013-2014 FLYERS 52 14 32 46

So from this table we can see he did almost 100 point, what he should do as 9 mil player, only when Jagr players for Flyers. All rest of season he is 70 points guy, so that is leading to be 6-7 mil per year player. I'm seeing him only complementary player. I can't see him suddenly become that Guy like we had Lindros, Brian Propp, Clarky. So we, well Flyers spent top buck on complementary player and what to do now? Flyers slow is dropping down in the standings and their probability to make a playoff small as me suddenly win million $ lottery.

Giroux is going to make more than Stamkov, Gezlaf, Kessel, E. Staal this just few names.

Take look this website http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/players

Last year numbers, well season was short but it put teams in the position to fight for playoff spot from day one.

1 Martin St. Louis TBL R 48 17 43 60 +0 14 3 0 2 0 112 15.2 21:59 23.9 42.8

2 Steven Stamkos TBL C 48 29 28 57 -4 32 10 0 2 0 157 18.5 22:01 24.3 49.6

3 Alex Ovechkin WSH R 48 32 24 56 +2 36 16 0 4 0 220 14.5 20:53 21.4 0.0

4 Sidney Crosby PIT C 36 15 41 56 +26 16 3 0 1 0 124 12.1 21:06 22.8 54.3

5 Patrick Kane CHI R 47 23 32 55 +11 8 8 0 3 0 138 16.7 20:03 23.1 20.0

6 Eric Staal CAR C 48 18 35 53 +5 54 3 1 4 0 152 11.8 20:59 26.3 52.0

7 Chris Kunitz PIT L 48 22 30 52 +30 39 9 0 5 0 113 19.5 18:01 20.4 44.4

8 Phil Kessel TOR C 48 20 32 52 -3 18 6 0 4 0 161 12.4 19:48 23.9 62.5

9 Taylor Hall EDM L 45 16 34 50 +5 33 4 0 4 0 154 10.4 18:37 22.6 54.7

10 Pavel Datsyuk DET C 47 15 34 49 +21 14 8 0 6 2 107 14.0 20:10 25.3 55.0

11 Ryan Getzlaf ANA C 44 15 34 49 +14 41 4 3 3 0 99 15.2 20:11 24.2 48.0

12 Mike Ribeiro WSH C 48 13 36 49 -4 53 6 0 1 0 63 20.6 17:50 20.3 44.8

13 Jonathan Toews CHI C 47 23 25 48 +28 27 2 2 5 0 143 16.1 19:20 25.0 59.9

14 Claude Giroux PHI C 48 13 35 48 -7 22 6 1 2 0 137 9.5 21:10 26.1 54.5

15 Henrik Zetterberg DET L 46 11 37 48 +2 18 4 2 5 0 173 6.4 20:31 24.3 48.3

16 Nicklas Backstrom WSH C 48 8 40 48 +8 20 3 0 1 0 82 9.8 19:54 23.3 51.4

17 John Tavares NYI C 48 28 19 47 -2 18 9 0 5 0 162 17.3 20:46 22.3 49.4

18 Jakub Voracek PHI R 48 22 24 46 -7 35 8 0 3 0 129 17.1 17:14 21.1 40.0

19 Andrew Ladd WPG L 48 18 28 46 +10 22 3 0 4 0 121 14.9 19:40 24.2 53.7

20 Henrik Sedin VAN C 48 11 34 45 +19

You can see he is in the top 20 but I would take Zetterberg before him. But Pavel would be even better. So I don't see him to be 9 mil player and this is my problem with him. I'm fine if he had 6-7 mil salary so Flyers might be able get better defense or talent winger for Giroux.

So I think Flyers should split the road with Giroux before summer time or his salary kick. The good thing to do is trade him for Nashville for Weber and suck for year, preparing for good draft or GOOD trade for talent scorer. Flyers have to say goodbye to Timmo, and keep Coburn, Grossman, Gastaffson and say goodbye to Luke Shenn and Mazarous. Defense lines would be good looking Weber/Coburn, Gross/Gast, and .....I'm not sure. Up front would be not bad as well. Flyers can add even Vanek (UFA after this season).

So Flyers have a lot options but to make team better in the future that need say goodbye to Giroux. Giroux is like a baby with running nose all the time, there is nothing in him to be and show Flyers hockey. Some would argue with me about Richie and Giroux, but at least Richie as captain would fight or run over the goalie in game like today vs Boston, but this little puke did absolutely nothing expect score a meaningless goal.

Ok Let's fun begin!

Edited January 25, 2014 by phlfly

pilldoc · January 25, 2014

the cut and paste did not work...can you clean it up a bit.....very jumbled...sorry

Howie58 · January 25, 2014

Greetings:

Giroux is what he is...an upper-middle class but not necessarily elite player. Did we overpay him? Probably. We never accept losing here for long, so there is no accumulation of first rate players. We have to hope and pray that mid-first rounders and behind picks will morph into game changers. Or that we have the patience to let those folks gel. Does that happen?

Best,

Howie

murraycraven · January 25, 2014

As Howie stated he is a very good player. IMO he is not an elite player and certainly overpaid at 8M.

Again, I am a big G fan but he is not worth the contract... There are some very good players but we have no bona fide star. But then again Homer signed him to it so it makes sense that he is going to be overpaid.

phlfly · January 25, 2014

Actually both JVR and Carter with 20 goals where is Giroux is 14 goals. Just saying about trades Flyers did. Flyers trade 2nd overall for some puke defenseman.

brelic · January 26, 2014

As Howie stated he is a very good player. IMO he is not an elite player and certainly overpaid at 8M.
Again, I am a big G fan but he is not worth the contract... There are some very good players but we have no bona fide star. But then again Homer signed him to it so it makes sense that he is going to be overpaid.

I agree with you, mc.

Personally, I would consider Giroux a star. He's just a notch below the true elite of the league, but he's definitely still a star.

That being said, he's the only one on this team. The rest of the forwards are meh. The defense is pretty porous and very unbalanced. And our goaltending is mediocre to bad (21st in the league in goals against). We are the most penalized team in the league.

In 3-5 years our forward core could be very strong (Giroux, Jake, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, and I might add Read in there even though he'll be 31 in 5 years). They'll all be in or close to their prime years. So that's good. Add to that guys like Laughton, other draft picks that may surprise us, and veteran acquisitions (yup, Vinny will still be under contract though I highly doubt he'll be in Philly), and our forwards should look pretty good.

On defense, it's a crap shoot. You hope guys like Morin, Hagg, and Ghost pan out, but there's no guarantee. Even less chance that there's a true #1 in there.

And in goal, Mason might be long gone by then... Emery certainly will be. So maybe Mason turns out to be the answer. Or maybe Heeter or Stolarz. Seriously, Heeter should be the backup next year. If they don't ever give their homegrown guys a freakin' chance to get their feet wet in the big leagues, what the hell is the point in drafting them? I really don't understand this organization.

But back to the OP's question, you don't move Giroux. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. How many times do we have to keep doing that to our captains and top players before people realize that just ain't the way to build a club???

jammer2 · January 26, 2014

The problem is, if you trade G...the Flyers will suck even more on offense. They are struggling with him in the line-up, take him out and we are horrid!

I agree, he has only had one great year, but on the bright side...the 8 mill a year he will be making will look like a better deal as the cap goes up...up and up. 8 mill in a few years will be like 6 mill this year....so the overpayment will be a fair deal in a few short years. Plus, if you deal him, what do you get back, legit NHL scoring, or pie in the sky draft picks that may or may not pan out. The return has to be outstanding to even consider this. Will anyone ever play out a long term deal in Philly....ya gotta wonder. Once a long term deal is signed with Homer, the clock seems to start ticking.....

Hard to imagine G making 8 mill while a proven consistent guy like Patrick Marleau just signed for a very reasonable 6.6 for 3 years.

pilldoc · January 26, 2014

So I would like to put out his thread for our long argue about Giroux. Keep or Trade? Is he that Guy or just complementary player ( funny to say while writing this Giroux just score against Boston ).

Lets face it (Boston just score 5th one ) Giroux had only one good year when Jagr was played for Flyers, and he will make 10 mil next and 9 mil cap hit.
Let see his performance if he is worth this money:
2009-2010 FLYERS 82 16 31 47 -9 23 8 0 2 145 11.0
2010-2011 FLYERS 82 25 51 76 20 47 8 3 5 169 14.8
2011-2012 FLYEers 77 28 65 93 6 29 6 0 5 242 11.6
2012-2013 FLYERS 48 13 35 48 -7 22 6 1 2 137 9.5
2012-2013 EISBAREN BERLIN-GERMANY 9 4 15 19 6
2012-2013 CANADA-WC-A 8 3 5 8 4 12 2 0 0
2013-2014 FLYERS 52 14 32 46

So from this table we can see he did almost 100 point, what he should do as 9 mil player, only when Jagr players for Flyers. All rest of season he is 70 points guy, so that is leading to be 6-7 mil per year player. I'm seeing him only complementary player. I can't see him suddenly become that Guy like we had Lindros, Brian Propp, Clarky. So we, well Flyers spent top buck on complementary player and what to do now? Flyers slow is dropping down in the standings and their probability to make a playoff small as me suddenly win million $ lottery.

Giroux is going to make more than Stamkov, Gezlaf, Kessel, E. Staal this just few names.

Take look this website http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/players

Last year numbers, well season was short but it put teams in the position to fight for playoff spot from day one.

1 Martin St. Louis TBL R 48 17 43 60 +0 14 3 0 2 0 112 15.2 21:59 23.9 42.8
2 Steven Stamkos TBL C 48 29 28 57 -4 32 10 0 2 0 157 18.5 22:01 24.3 49.6
3 Alex Ovechkin WSH R 48 32 24 56 +2 36 16 0 4 0 220 14.5 20:53 21.4 0.0
4 Sidney Crosby PIT C 36 15 41 56 +26 16 3 0 1 0 124 12.1 21:06 22.8 54.3
5 Patrick Kane CHI R 47 23 32 55 +11 8 8 0 3 0 138 16.7 20:03 23.1 20.0
6 Eric Staal CAR C 48 18 35 53 +5 54 3 1 4 0 152 11.8 20:59 26.3 52.0
7 Chris Kunitz PIT L 48 22 30 52 +30 39 9 0 5 0 113 19.5 18:01 20.4 44.4
8 Phil Kessel TOR C 48 20 32 52 -3 18 6 0 4 0 161 12.4 19:48 23.9 62.5
9 Taylor Hall EDM L 45 16 34 50 +5 33 4 0 4 0 154 10.4 18:37 22.6 54.7
10 Pavel Datsyuk DET C 47 15 34 49 +21 14 8 0 6 2 107 14.0 20:10 25.3 55.0
11 Ryan Getzlaf ANA C 44 15 34 49 +14 41 4 3 3 0 99 15.2 20:11 24.2 48.0
12 Mike Ribeiro WSH C 48 13 36 49 -4 53 6 0 1 0 63 20.6 17:50 20.3 44.8
13 Jonathan Toews CHI C 47 23 25 48 +28 27 2 2 5 0 143 16.1 19:20 25.0 59.9
14 Claude Giroux PHI C 48 13 35 48 -7 22 6 1 2 0 137 9.5 21:10 26.1 54.5
15 Henrik Zetterberg DET L 46 11 37 48 +2 18 4 2 5 0 173 6.4 20:31 24.3 48.3
16 Nicklas Backstrom WSH C 48 8 40 48 +8 20 3 0 1 0 82 9.8 19:54 23.3 51.4
17 John Tavares NYI C 48 28 19 47 -2 18 9 0 5 0 162 17.3 20:46 22.3 49.4
18 Jakub Voracek PHI R 48 22 24 46 -7 35 8 0 3 0 129 17.1 17:14 21.1 40.0
19 Andrew Ladd WPG L 48 18 28 46 +10 22 3 0 4 0 121 14.9 19:40 24.2 53.7
20 Henrik Sedin VAN C 48 11 34 45 +19
You can see he is in the top 20 but I would take Zetterberg before him. But Pavel would be even better. So I don't see him to be 9 mil player and this is my problem with him. I'm fine if he had 6-7 mil salary so Flyers might be able get better defense or talent winger for Giroux.
So I think Flyers should split the road with Giroux before summer time or his salary kick. The good thing to do is trade him for Nashville for Weber and suck for year, preparing for good draft or GOOD trade for talent scorer. Flyers have to say goodbye to Timmo, and keep Coburn, Grossman, Gastaffson and say goodbye to Luke Shenn and Mazarous. Defense lines would be good looking Weber/Coburn, Gross/Gast, and .....I'm not sure. Up front would be not bad as well. Flyers can add even Vanek (UFA after this season).
So Flyers have a lot options but to make team better in the future that need say goodbye to Giroux. Giroux is like a baby with running nose all the time, there is nothing in him to be and show Flyers hockey. Some would argue with me about Richie and Giroux, but at least Richie as captain would fight or run over the goalie in game like today vs Boston, but this little puke did absolutely nothing expect score a meaningless goal.

Ok Let's fun begin!

ahh...much better..thanks.....

you bring some very valid points to the table....I am tending to agree with many on this forum. Giroux is a very good upper level player, HOWEVER, he is NOT an elite player. Elite players make other players around them better. Case in point Jagr is/was an elite player. That year Giroux had Jagr, Jagr MADE Giroux a better player. The stats don't lie. Yes he "Had THE Shift" to begin that playoff game vs the Pens, but outside of the that shift, he really has not put the team on his back. Does the presence of Giroux on any line make those players better? Look i am not bashing the kid. I really really like him, but with hindsight being 20/20, he simply is not worth the money he is being paid.

With that being said, there is no way you move him unless the return is so lopsided in our favor. As other have mentioned, this offense has a hard time during stretch so as it is, with G gone it could be a disaster. Besides, hasn't this team learned from past mistakes about trading away good young players. It the ridiculous contracts and signing mediocre d-man that has gotten the Flyers in this mess.

It is time for this organization to change its philosophy and start letting the kids/rookies play.

Edited January 26, 2014 by pilldoc

jammer2 · January 26, 2014

@pilldoc

"It is time for this organization to change its philosophy and start letting the kids/rookies play. "

This will never happen while Snider is alive. This idiot always thinks we are 2-3 players away from winning it all. It will always be the case. What it really does is not allow us to suck badly enough to get the true superstar d-man we have always needed. You have to be top 5 in the draft to get one of those, which means letting kids learn on the fly and not signing vets to outrageous contracts. It means letting things roll naturally, not putting square pegs in the round holes ie vet additions like Vinny and Striet. It means playing it tight to the vest and having a boatload of patience. Qualities the Flyers will never have while Snider is alive.

caluso · January 26, 2014

@pilldoc

"It is time for this organization to change its philosophy and start letting the kids/rookies play. "

This will never happen while Snider is alive. This idiot always thinks we are 2-3 players away from winning it all. It will always be the case. What it really does is not allow us to suck badly enough to get the true superstar d-man we have always needed. You have to be top 5 in the draft to get one of those, which means letting kids learn on the fly and not signing vets to outrageous contracts. It means letting things roll naturally, not putting square pegs in the round holes ie vet additions like Vinny and Striet. It means playing it tight to the vest and having a boatload of patience. Qualities the Flyers will never have while Snider is alive.

everybody not named simmonds should be available for the right price.

the real question is do you trust Gomer to get fair value or the right pieces in return?

i was not against trading JVR, for example, but i was dead set against acquiring schenn for him. and, now that i hear we could have had yandle instead of schenn.....yikes.

pilldoc · January 26, 2014

@pilldoc
"It is time for this organization to change its philosophy and start letting the kids/rookies play. "
This will never happen while Snider is alive. This idiot always thinks we are 2-3 players away from winning it all. It will always be the case. What it really does is not allow us to suck badly enough to get the true superstar d-man we have always needed. You have to be top 5 in the draft to get one of those, which means letting kids learn on the fly and not signing vets to outrageous contracts. It means letting things roll naturally, not putting square pegs in the round holes ie vet additions like Vinny and Striet. It means playing it tight to the vest and having a boatload of patience. Qualities the Flyers will never have while Snider is alive.

Jammer,

Totally agree with everything you said. Why is Snider so stubborn ? I get he he is older and wants to win one more time, but clearly what he is doing is NOT working.

I , for the life of me still don't get the Vinny and Steit signings. Let one of the young pups learn under Kimmo them if you insist on resigning him.

I believe the next several games will put us in a death spiral. This team simply is not good enough to play with the big boys. If that happens and we are way out of it, then we should be sellers come trade deadline. Sadly a vast majority of this fan base won't accept that. In reality there really is no other recourse,

murraycraven · January 26, 2014

I agree with you, mc.
Personally, I would consider Giroux a star. He's just a notch below the true elite of the league, but he's definitely still a star.
That being said, he's the only one on this team. The rest of the forwards are meh. The defense is pretty porous and very unbalanced. And our goaltending is mediocre to bad (21st in the league in goals against). We are the most penalized team in the league.
In 3-5 years our forward core could be very strong (Giroux, Jake, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, and I might add Read in there even though he'll be 31 in 5 years). They'll all be in or close to their prime years. So that's good. Add to that guys like Laughton, other draft picks that may surprise us, and veteran acquisitions (yup, Vinny will still be under contract though I highly doubt he'll be in Philly), and our forwards should look pretty good.
On defense, it's a crap shoot. You hope guys like Morin, Hagg, and Ghost pan out, but there's no guarantee. Even less chance that there's a true #1 in there.
And in goal, Mason might be long gone by then... Emery certainly will be. So maybe Mason turns out to be the answer. Or maybe Heeter or Stolarz. Seriously, Heeter should be the backup next year. If they don't ever give their homegrown guys a freakin' chance to get their feet wet in the big leagues, what the hell is the point in drafting them? I really don't understand this organization.
But back to the OP's question, you don't move Giroux. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. How many times do we have to keep doing that to our captains and top players before people realize that just ain't the way to build a club???

Agree w everything you say Brel. I am not suggesting they move G. Just that I think his contract is too high. I don't see him as an 8M per year elite star.

jackhole · January 26, 2014

Pill,

Streit is understandable, I mean, he is basically Matt Carle... Not the greatest answer for the d-corps, but with what was available at the time, and for only giving up a 4th, OK.

Vinnie was much more of a surprise. I think Homer saw the buyout and just couldn't resist, a la 'kid/candy store syndrome.'

I'm with you - sell sell sell at the deadline. Really, no matter what, because, even if we squeak into the playoffs, does anyone see 2010 happening again? I don't. This team doesn't have enough character to win 7 game series (was anyone listening to the Bruins' feed yesterday? The game long pity-party for the flyers, led by none other than Jack-conspiracy-Edwards was frikkin embarassing.)

Take stock and plan for the future.

brelic · January 26, 2014

@pilldoc

"It is time for this organization to change its philosophy and start letting the kids/rookies play. "

This will never happen while Snider is alive. This idiot always thinks we are 2-3 players away from winning it all. It will always be the case. What it really does is not allow us to suck badly enough to get the true superstar d-man we have always needed. You have to be top 5 in the draft to get one of those, which means letting kids learn on the fly and not signing vets to outrageous contracts. It means letting things roll naturally, not putting square pegs in the round holes ie vet additions like Vinny and Striet. It means playing it tight to the vest and having a boatload of patience. Qualities the Flyers will never have while Snider is alive.

I agree with your overall point, but with respect to needing to be top 5 to get a true superstar d-man, it seems there are a lot of true #1/top pairing guys to be had outside of that top 5, even outside of the 1st round.

The perfect case in point is Luke Schenn. Number 5 overall... ok, ok, he was the 4th defenseman picked, behind Doughty (#2), Bogosian (#3), and Pietrangelo (#4). In fact, looking at that 2008 1st round, Schenn is probably the worst of the 12 defensemen picked. Ouch.

But back to the point, we can find a true top guy without needing to be top 5. Keith, Subban, Karlsson, OEL, Weber, Suter, Seabrook. A few of those guys are close to top 5, but a few are 2nd rounders too.

All that to say that Morin could very well be that guy. So could Hagg. I mean, it's not likely, but there are lots of precedents.

Of course, that requires the Flyers to actually *play* those guys and give them a chance instead of plugging holes with expensive and mediocre stop gaps.

phlfly · January 26, 2014

I want to bring one more point about Giroux, in the table below he has the worst +- (-7), it's telling me he is not really good in defense as well, so as said before he is not making better players around him. Just look Pavel has +21 !!!!