Giroux? And What to do next?

[jammer2]

chara - 56th pick

weber - 49th pick

lidstrom - 53rd pick

keith - 54th pick

desjardins - 38th pick

 

 

the flashier offensive defensemen, yeah, really high draft picks, but i don't think an erik karlsson or pk subban help the flyers really at all.  solid, foundational dmen don't tend to come from the top of the draft class.

 

 

 Valid points. I will say though, those picks were made over a decade or so ago. The GM's realized the true value/potential of large 2 way d-men and how they can impact your franchise. They have shifted their drafting tendencies to go for size early....which is why you see guys like Hedman, Jones and to a lesser extent Morin going fairly early in drafts. Even big stiffs like Dylan McGrath go early, in hopes they will evolve into franchise type guys....include Luke Schenn on that list also, even though we know how that turned out. 

[phlfly]

Patrick Shap is also among he leaders. Clarkie said we have too many centers and that is why he was traded?

I forgot about Sharp. Well we trade Peter Forsberg as well. 

I know where you are coming, and it's good question do Flyers have to trade Giroux or just keep him and sucking his salary with 70 or less point production ? Well I would  like to keep him, but with him on team Flyers can't afford top defenseman, so either Giroux or top defenseman. I don't know where to start the building the team from defense or offense. In my view defenseman prime time is coming way later than offense. 

So let look at most successful organization in last 5 years, it's Blackhawks. All their top defenseman are early years picks and all top forwards are later years picks, the difference  between them around 3-4 years. So may be occurring top defensman is a priority, so we can wait top offense guys. 

[JackStraw]

the flashier offensive defensemen, yeah, really high draft picks, but i don't think an erik karlsson or pk subban help the flyers really at all

 

Actually neither of those guys was a top 10 pick either. Subban was a 2nd rounder, Karlsson mid-first. Believe it or not the Flyers actually drafted Kevin Marshall in the 2nd round when Subban was still available.

[radoran]

To be fair to Giroux, he's 10 years younger than Jumbo Joe and Marleau. G still has some growing room.

 

Not only is it a glaring failure of this GM to put the right players around this core, but he doesn't even recognize it when he does (Jagr).

 

I don't think I'm being "unfair" to Giroux. Can he still grow? Sure. Is he the foundation of a franchise? No.

 

Simon Gagne had 79 points and 47 goals in 72 games one season.

 

Sure, it was the one he played with Forsberg, but... well... he never got there again. 41/68 in 76 and 34/74 in 79 then drop.

[phlfly]

I don't think I'm being "unfair" to Giroux. Can he still grow? Sure. Is he the foundation of a franchise? No.

Simon Gagne had 79 points and 47 goals in 72 games one season.

Sure, it was the one he played with Forsberg, but... well... he never got there again. 41/68 in 76 and 34/74 in 79 then drop.

That's exactly my point. Would it be good flyers stack with him for next 7 years? Or we got lucky to have Sid or Datsyk with him on same team?

Edited January 27, 2014 by phlfly

[Lindbergh31]

  The problem is, if you trade G...the Flyers will suck even more on offense. They are struggling with him in the line-up, take him out and we are horrid!

 

  I agree, he has only had one great year, but on the bright side...the 8 mill a year he will be making will look like a better deal as the cap goes up...up and up. 8 mill in a few years will be like 6 mill this year....so the overpayment will be a fair deal in a few short years. Plus, if you deal him, what do you get back, legit NHL scoring, or pie in the sky draft picks that may or may not pan out. The return has to be outstanding to even consider this. Will anyone ever play out a long term deal in Philly....ya gotta wonder. Once a long term deal is signed with Homer, the clock seems to start ticking.....

 

 Hard to imagine G making 8 mill while a proven consistent guy like Patrick Marleau just signed for a very reasonable 6.6 for 3 years.

Jammer, Marleau is what 34 years old and making $6.6 million where as Giroux is 25. If the Flyers trade Giroux then who will they build around. Flyers fans have to realize that it's going to be like the early 90's where there is a good possibility of the Flyers missing the playoffs for multiple years. Get rid of Holmgren and let Hextall take over and build thru the draft.

[PhilsFanDrew]

For the most part I agree with you. Your estimation of one of the glaring failures of the general manager is likewise well taken.

 

But I think many might feel differently if he was making $6.5-$7M (Joe Thornton) for the next five years instead of $8+M for the next eight.

 

And there is the point that Joe Thornton has yet to win a Conference Championship, much less a Cup.

 

Giroux is a talented player, but he's more on the Simon Gagne side of talented player (needing a catalyst (Forsberg/Jagr) to be a top producer) than a Sidney Crosby (makes Pascal Dupuis an actual threat).

 

Actually I think if Giroux had a winger like Gagne in his prime he puts up over 100 pts a season.   Heck I don't even think Giroux needs a 40+ goal scorer on his line to break 100 pts.   He needs wingers than can pot 25-30 goals.   I agree that he is not in the class of a Crosby who can make average players around him that much better but I do believe with the right pieces around him he would consistently meet or exceed his 93 pts career high. 

[radoran]

Actually I think if Giroux had a winger like Gagne in his prime he puts up over 100 pts a season.   Heck I don't even think Giroux needs a 40+ goal scorer on his line to break 100 pts.   He needs wingers than can pot 25-30 goals.   I agree that he is not in the class of a Crosby who can make average players around him that much better but I do believe with the right pieces around him he would consistently meet or exceed his 93 pts career high. 

 

Well, exactly. He didn't even need a Jagr "in his prime" to get to 93 points.

 

Now, do they go after a Vanek or would a Moulson - for example - be the "right guy"?

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

Or we could suck and just draft a Dal Colle or a Perlini.

[PhilsFanDrew]

@radoran

 

Moulson is an intriguing name.   He has been a consistent 30 goal scorer.  His contract expires at $3.9 million.  He's going to expect a pay bump so I'd try to sign him for $5.25, 4 years.   I wouldn't go much higher than that.    

[phlfly]

Actually I think if Giroux had a winger like Gagne in his prime he puts up over 100 pts a season.   Heck I don't even think Giroux needs a 40+ goal scorer on his line to break 100 pts.   He needs wingers than can pot 25-30 goals.   I agree that he is not in the class of a Crosby who can make average players around him that much better but I do believe with the right pieces around him he would consistently meet or exceed his 93 pts career high. 

 

 

Well, exactly. He didn't even need a Jagr "in his prime" to get to 93 points.

 

Now, do they go after a Vanek or would a Moulson - for example - be the "right guy"?

Both you guys have a point. So players like Sid are making 9 mil + but not players like Giroux.

 

I like an idea to Vanek and pair him with Giroux, that can be a very good offensive line.

But the question will open about defense, looking at Flyers now,  Grossman, Coburn and Mezarous (a very stretch may be) can keep in Flyers, all reast of these guys are not good at all.

Looking at list of defense UFA I can see Flyers can go ahead and sign with either Phillips, Chris, Hainsey, Ron, Zidlicky, Marek, Scuderi, Rob, Pietrangelo, Alex  (RFA), Bogosian, Zach (RFA), Babchuk, Anton,

Not a lot options. I might don't know some new names who has a talent.

[B21]

Both you guys have a point. So players like Sid are making 9 mil + but not players like Giroux.

 

I like an idea to Vanek and pair him with Giroux, that can be a very good offensive line.

But the question will open about defense, looking at Flyers now,  Grossman, Coburn and Mezarous (a very stretch may be) can keep in Flyers, all reast of these guys are not good at all.

Looking at list of defense UFA I can see Flyers can go ahead and sign with either Phillips, Chris, Hainsey, Ron, Zidlicky, Marek, Scuderi, Rob, Pietrangelo, Alex  (RFA), Bogosian, Zach (RFA), Babchuk, Anton,

Not a lot options. I might don't know some new names who has a talent.

 

You might be looking at an older list.  Not sure about the others bu Scuderi is signed for 3 more years after this one.

[brelic]

radoran, on 26 Jan 2014 - 8:59 PM, said:

I don't think I'm being "unfair" to Giroux. Can he still grow? Sure. Is he the foundation of a franchise? No.

I didn't mean to imply you weren't being fair to him. Just pointing out that the comparison for Giroux would be better against players his age and production level. Thornton and Marleau are getting "end of career" contracts, so length will be shorter and AAV lower even though they are both still producing at a high clip... for now.

[B21]

As scary as this sounds, if you are looking for help on the blue line the ideal trading partner for the Flyers could be (gasp!)....Pittsburgh.

 

No other NHL team has the depth there that the Pens do...NHL, AHL, etc.

 

The Pens could use insurance in net for the post-season in case Fleury falters.  I'd trust Emery more than Zatkoff in that role.

 

I'd love Wayne Simmonds on the Pens, too.

 

So the question is - what would it take to get those two?

[radoran]

I didn't mean to imply you weren't being fair to him. Just pointing out that the comparison for Giroux would be better against players his age and production level. Thornton and Marleau are getting "end of career" contracts, so length will be shorter and AAV lower even though they are both still producing at a high clip... for now.

 

True, but they've never made $8+M a year. Or even a comparable number given the other top salaries in the league.

 

Both you guys have a point. So players like Sid are making 9 mil + but not players like Giroux.

 

Giroux is making $10M next year. And $9M per the four years after that.

[Polaris922]

As scary as this sounds, if you are looking for help on the blue line the ideal trading partner for the Flyers could be (gasp!)....Pittsburgh.

No other NHL team has the depth there that the Pens do...NHL, AHL, etc.

The Pens could use insurance in net for the post-season in case Fleury falters. I'd trust Emery more than Zatkoff in that role.

I'd love Wayne Simmonds on the Pens, too.

So the question is - what would it take to get those two?

Emery? That's it! I'm ordering you a psych eval! .

Emery sucks. I'd trust my 13 year old in there before Ray Emery!

[brelic]

True, but they've never made $8+M a year. Or even a comparable number given the other top salaries in the league.

That's true, but they don't play for Homer. That's on them

In Philly, Thornton would have gotten a Richards type deal in length but double the salary. Guaranteed.

[JackStraw]

So the question is - what would it take to get those two?

 

I think it would be really tough to pry Simmonds away from the Flyers. But I would love to take Maata off your hands... 

[B21]

Emery? That's it! I'm ordering you a psych eval! .

Emery sucks. I'd trust my 13 year old in there before Ray Emery!

 

As far as back-up/insurance policy goes - why not?  If a guy is that good, he's likely a starter and will want to remain a starter.   Emery's numbers are not great this year but look at the D in front of him. Pylons, pylons and more pylons.    

 

I think it would be real hard to find a Vokoun-like option for the post-season. Veteran. Post-season success on the resume. Willing to wait to see if...err when...Fleury implodes.

[B21]

I think it would be really tough to pry Simmonds away from the Flyers. But I would love to take Maata off your hands... 

 

Then you should have drafted him.  

 

In all seriousness, it would be tough to get Simmonds from Philly but it's fun to speculate.  Would Maatta straight up do it?  Personally, I value young, cheap, defensively responsible but offensively talented d-men (if you buy into the upside which I think most do) more than I value established power wingers if only because there are fewer d-men that fit those criteria than there are power wingers.

 

That alone makes Maatta more of a commodity than Simmonds i/m/h/o.

 

But man would I love to see Simmonds on a wing with Crosby or Malkin.  One of my favorite non-Pens.

[JackStraw]

Then you should have drafted him.  

 

I would have but I didn't get the job 

 

Would Maatta straight up do it?

 

My guess would be "no". Simmonds is one of those guys of whom people will say "he was born to be a Flyer". I suspect Flyers management values him very highly, both for on and off ice reasons.

[fanaticV3.0]

It blows my mind that people will harp on the organization for not giving youth a chance, but threads like this pop up fairly regularly (maybe not weekly, but every season for sure).

 

The old man will never say it, but this team is rebuilding. The core players of the team (Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Simmons, and Mason) are an average age of like 24-25. Now is not the time to be trading one of them. The only way you do is if you get something they really need in return, but I don't see that happening, so stand pat. They should be building around these players, not trading them away. They should look to acquire a scoring winger to go along with Giroux and a defenseman. A good one, not some Streit level guy who is worthless in his own end.

Edited January 27, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[radoran]

My guess would be "no". Simmonds is one of those guys of whom people will say "he was born to be a Flyer". I suspect Flyers management values him very highly, both for on and off ice reasons

 

Not to mention his contract - $3.975M cap hit through 2019. Probably the best "long term" deal Homer has ever made. I am still stunned that Simmonds signed it.

 

Simmonds is about the only guy on the roster my doors would have to be completely blown off to trade.

[JackStraw]

@radoran - yeah, didn't even think of that. His contract is a very nice bargain.

[radoran]

@radoran - yeah, didn't even think of that. His contract is a very nice bargain.

 

It's positively LeClairian (the first contract) in nature. Just like agents used JLC's first contract as a "don't sign this" example, they should be using Simmonds' today.