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Giroux? And What to do next?


phlfly

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It blows my mind that people will harp on the organization for not giving youth a chance, but threads like this pop up fairly regularly (maybe not weekly, but every season for sure).

 

The old man will never say it, but this team is rebuilding. The core players of the team (Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Simmons, and Mason) are an average age of like 24-25. Now is not the time to be trading one of them. The only way you do is if you get something they really need in return, but I don't see that happening, so stand pat. They should be building around these players, not trading them away. They should look to acquire a scoring winger to go along with Giroux and a defenseman. A good one, not some Streit level guy who is worthless in his own end.

 

The signings of Mark Streit and VLC (among others) aren't the kind of signings that a "rebuilding" team makes.  If those were 1-2 year deals (which almost certainly would not have gotten you either player) then yeah - I'd buy the rebuilding bit.  Sure - someone has to play - but those are awfully long committments to two players who are in the declining stages of their careers. Spending money for the sake of spending money. 

 

What the Flyers are doing is more "retooling on the fly" than a true "rebuilding" process.  Usually doesn't work and leaves you with nothing of trade value on the roster other than that core...which you (rightfully) would not want to touch.  No one is taking Hartnell, VLC or Streit off your hands with the years and cap hits left on their deals.  Timmonen has some value but not much.  Maybe a mid-level prospect or mid-round pick from a contender needing help on the blue line. Maybe.

 

Another problem is that it leaves the team just barely good enough to justify not trading away at the deadline what little they have that should be traded if the team were in a true rebuilding mode.

 

If another GM suffered a mental breakdown and called Holmgren at the deadline wanting to take Streit or VLC or Hartnell off your hands for a decent but not great prospect in return - and the Flyers were the 7th seed at the time - does he pull the trigger? No. 

 

To borrow from radoran...rinse, lather and repeat.

 

Better yet - to borrow a quote from Mr. Miyagi...

 

Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later...get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do "yes", or karate do "no". You karate do "guess so", squish just like grape.

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The signings of Mark Streit and VLC (among others) aren't the kind of signings that a "rebuilding" team makes.  If those were 1-2 year deals (which almost certainly would not have gotten you either player) then yeah - I'd buy the rebuilding bit.  Sure - someone has to play - but those are awfully long committments to two players who are in the declining stages of their careers. Spending money for the sake of spending money. 

 

What the Flyers are doing is more "retooling on the fly" than a true "rebuilding" process.  Usually doesn't work and leaves you with nothing of trade value on the roster other than that core...which you (rightfully) would not want to touch.  No one is taking Hartnell, VLC or Streit off your hands with the years and cap hits left on their deals.  Timmonen has some value but not much.  Maybe a mid-level prospect or mid-round pick from a contender needing help on the blue line. Maybe.

 

Another problem is that it leaves the team just barely good enough to justify not trading away at the deadline what little they have that should be traded if the team were in a true rebuilding mode.

 

If another GM suffered a mental breakdown and called Holmgren at the deadline wanting to take Streit or VLC or Hartnell off your hands for a decent but not great prospect in return - and the Flyers were the 7th seed at the time - does he pull the trigger? No. 

 

To borrow from radoran...rinse, lather and repeat.

 

Better yet - to borrow a quote from Mr. Miyagi...

 

Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later...get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do "yes", or karate do "no". You karate do "guess so", squish just like grape.

 

Just like with the whole "reboot" vs "remake" debate with movies/tv, it's semantics. "Retooling" is something some clown (probably Snider) came up with somewhere because he was too afraid to admit his team was rebuilding, even though it really is.Signing veterans doesn't disregard the fact the core of your team is 24/25.

Edited by fanaticV3.0
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Just like with the whole "reboot" vs "remake" debate with movies/tv, it's semantics. "Retooling" is something some clown (probably Snider) came up with somewhere because he was too afraid to admit his team was rebuilding, even though it really is.Signing veterans doesn't disregard the fact the core of your team is 24/25.

 

It's more than just semantics though.  A team can be rebuilding and still sign veterans.  Like I said - someone has to play.  However, signing older veterans whose primes are long gone to 4 and 5 year deals with $4.5 - $5 million cap hits are not moves a "rebuilding" team usually makes.

 

The Richards and Carter deals were "rebuilding" moves. Buying out Briere and Bryz were rebuilding moves. Trading for the rights and signing Bryz in the first place was a "making a run for it" move. So was the Hartnell extension...and the VLC deal...and the Streit deal.

 

The Flyers should have committed to the rebuilding beginning with the Richards deal.  The Carter deal was also a move in the right direction. But then....squish.

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It blows my mind that people will harp on the organization for not giving youth a chance, but threads like this pop up fairly regularly (maybe not weekly, but every season for sure).

The old man will never say it, but this team is rebuilding. The core players of the team (Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Simmons, and Mason) are an average age of like 24-25. Now is not the time to be trading one of them. The only way you do is if you get something they really need in return, but I don't see that happening, so stand pat. They should be building around these players, not trading them away. They should look to acquire a scoring winger to go along with Giroux and a defenseman. A good one, not some Streit level guy who is worthless in his own end.

I think you should start to build around defense core where is Flyers has zero, zilch. Locking and over paying to Giroux about 3 mil that could be cost Flyers a top 10 defenseman. So what is better to have good and reliable defense or guy who ca score around 25/30 goals? It will not make a difference as my view.

Edited by phlfly
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It's more than just semantics though.  A team can be rebuilding and still sign veterans.  Like I said - someone has to play.  However, signing older veterans whose primes are long gone to 4 and 5 year deals with $4.5 - $5 million cap hits are not moves a "rebuilding" team usually makes.

 

The Richards and Carter deals were "rebuilding" moves. Buying out Briere and Bryz were rebuilding moves. Trading for the rights and signing Bryz in the first place was a "making a run for it" move. So was the Hartnell extension...and the VLC deal...and the Streit deal.

 

The Flyers should have committed to the rebuilding beginning with the Richards deal.  The Carter deal was also a move in the right direction. But then....squish.

 

No it isn't. It's different words for the same thing.

 

Streit and VLC are two people on the roster. Regardless of how ill advised their deals are - and I agree they are - two people do not prevent you from rebuilding.

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I think you should start to build around defense core where is Flyers has zero, zilch. Locking and over paying to Giroux about 3 mil that could be cost Flyers a top 10 defenseman. So what is better to have good and reliable defense or guy who ca score around 25/30 goals? It will not make a difference as my view.

 

They need defense and a 25-30 goal guy, so if one were to become available I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to get the other. It's not an either/or situation. They need both and should be trying to get both. I actually think a #1 defenseman is a bigger need too, but if a winger became available I'm not going to ignore that just because they still need a defenseman.

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As far as back-up/insurance policy goes - why not? If a guy is that good, he's likely a starter and will want to remain a starter. Emery's numbers are not great this year but look at the D in front of him. Pylons, pylons and more pylons. ;)

I think it would be real hard to find a Vokoun-like option for the post-season. Veteran. Post-season success on the resume. Willing to wait to see if...err when...Fleury implodes.

Zatkoff's stat line is better than Emery's this season without the obvious weakness in lateral movement. He's young and learning, and short if two horrid performances, one of which was as much defense as his own, he's played pretty well. I'll stick with him. Emery isn't even a decent backup right now. He really should retire.

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Zatkoff's stat line is better than Emery's this season without the obvious weakness in lateral movement. He's young and learning, and short if two horrid performances, one of which was as much defense as his own, he's played pretty well. I'll stick with him. Emery isn't even a decent backup right now. He really should retire.

 

I know but I'd still trust a veteran like Emery in the post-season over a rookie back-up like Zatkoff.

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No it isn't. It's different words for the same thing.

 

Streit and VLC are two people on the roster. Regardless of how ill advised their deals are - and I agree they are - two people do not prevent you from rebuilding.

 

Not really.

 

Rebuilding is blowing it all up and starting from scratch...like trading Richards and Carter for young, still developing players and draft picks.  Like the Sabres are doing.

 

Retooling is buying out some veterans, bringing in some new veterans, maybe adding some youth and trading one underperforming player for another. Sound familiar?

 

Rebuilding is not signing guys like Bryz, Hartnell, VLC and Streit to deals that take them into their late 30's.  When you rebuild these are the types of players you trade for picks and prospects....if you haven't already signed them to untradable contracts that is.

 

Rebuilding is not making an offer to a prized F/A for which you would lose four 1st round picks if he signed.

 

Rebuilding is not putting all your eggs in the Parise/Suter basket with no real back-up plan.

 

Rebuilding is not trading away a future Vezina winner because you like the latest big time (cough cough) goalie to hit the market.

 

The Flyers started to rebuild - quite successfully. Then that 40 year itch in Ed's pants flared up and.....squish.

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Not really.

Rebuilding is blowing it all up and starting from scratch...like trading Richards and Carter for young, still developing players and draft picks. Like the Sabres are doing.

Retooling is buying out some veterans, bringing in some new veterans, maybe adding some youth and trading one underperforming player for another. Sound familiar?

Rebuilding is not signing guys like Bryz, Hartnell, VLC and Streit to deals that take them into their late 30's. When you rebuild these are the types of players you trade for picks and prospects....if you haven't already signed them to untradable contracts that is.

Rebuilding is not making an offer to a prized F/A for which you would lose four 1st round picks if he signed.

Rebuilding is not putting all your eggs in the Parise/Suter basket with no real back-up plan.

Rebuilding is not trading away a future Vezina winner because you like the latest big time (cough cough) goalie to hit the market.

The Flyers started to rebuild - quite successfully. Then that 40 year itch in Ed's pants flared up and.....squish.

Well said. Can't add much more to what you posted. Are you sure your really not a closet Flyers fan in disguise ? ;)

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Well said. Can't add much more to what you posted. Are you sure your really not a closet Flyers fan in disguise ? ;)

 

Pens fans know a lot about blowing it up and starting over.  We mucked that up, too. At least the Flyers ended up with Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, et al.

 

We got Kris Beech, Michel Sivek, Ross Lupaschuk, Rico Fata, Martin Strbak, Sergei Anshakov, et al.

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Pens fans know a lot about blowing it up and starting over.  We mucked that up, too. At least the Flyers ended up with Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, et al.

 

We got Kris Beech, Michel Sivek, Ross Lupaschuk, Rico Fata, Martin Strbak, Sergei Anshakov, et al.

 

ouch, I remember those guys with the Baby Pens when I used to have season tickets to the Norfolk Admirals.......(i met Beech, Fata, and Lupaschuk cool dudes just not NHL material)

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Pens fans know a lot about blowing it up and starting over. We mucked that up, too. At least the Flyers ended up with Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, et al.

We got Kris Beech, Michel Sivek, Ross Lupaschuk, Rico Fata, Martin Strbak, Sergei Anshakov, et al.

Thanks! Now I need my therapist again!

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Not really.

 

Rebuilding is blowing it all up and starting from scratch...like trading Richards and Carter for young, still developing players and draft picks.  Like the Sabres are doing.

 

Retooling is buying out some veterans, bringing in some new veterans, maybe adding some youth and trading one underperforming player for another. Sound familiar?

 

Rebuilding is not signing guys like Bryz, Hartnell, VLC and Streit to deals that take them into their late 30's.  When you rebuild these are the types of players you trade for picks and prospects....if you haven't already signed them to untradable contracts that is.

 

Rebuilding is not making an offer to a prized F/A for which you would lose four 1st round picks if he signed.

 

Rebuilding is not putting all your eggs in the Parise/Suter basket with no real back-up plan.

 

Rebuilding is not trading away a future Vezina winner because you like the latest big time (cough cough) goalie to hit the market.

 

The Flyers started to rebuild - quite successfully. Then that 40 year itch in Ed's pants flared up and.....squish.

 

Excellent post, B21.

 

Painfully so.

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Retooling is buying out some veterans, bringing in some new veterans, maybe adding some youth and trading one underperforming player for another. Sound familiar?

it does. reminds me of leclair and gonchar and recchi in 05-06, crosby's rookie season.

 

Rebuilding is not signing guys like Bryz, Hartnell, VLC and Streit to deals that take them into their late 30's.  When you rebuild these are the types of players you trade for picks and prospects....if you haven't already signed them to untradable contracts that is.

leclair and gonchar and recchi

 

Rebuilding is not making an offer to a prized F/A for which you would lose four 1st round picks if he signed.

just straight up disagree there. a mid-1st round pick has a, what, 25% chance of being an impact NHLer? four of them equal one impact guy at some point down the road? beyond a fair exchange for one of the 2 or 3 actual top line two way dmen in the league. that signing would have paid off for 15 years. i'd still trade for him, and i'd trade 4 1st round picks.

 

Rebuilding is not putting all your eggs in the Parise/Suter basket with no real back-up plan.

by your theory, rebuilding isn't about backup plans, though, right? it's about completely surrendering for several years, right? what was the loss to the flyers in that? carle? as under-rated as i think he was, you definition of rebuilding doesn't seem to include what he offered, outside of this one bullet point. the "rebuilding" impact to the flyers' foray into those chases didn't effect the "rebuilding" efforts at all.

 

Rebuilding is not trading away a future Vezina winner because you like the latest big time (cough cough) goalie to hit the market.

you know as well as the rest of us that bobrovski won the vezina because it was a perfect chance to make the flyers look stupid. he's reverted to what most figured he would: solid but not world beating numbers. bryzgalov was an insane move, but including the "vezina winner" bit was beneath you. he was a tool in that.

 

The Flyers started to rebuild - quite successfully. Then that 40 year itch in Ed's pants flared up and.....squish.

the only real squish was streit, and the truth is that as the cap re-rises post-lockout, his bit of the cap hit will be just shy of irrelevant. he'll make a pretty good 3rd pair guy for a couple years, and that's ok.

annoys me when penguins fans get all "you did it wrong" preachy. you guys had the luck of sucking phenomenally at the very moments crosby and malkin entered the league. actually, sucked phenomenally for several years, bracketing their entry, just to be safe. toronto and NYR and edmonton and calgary have sucked, too, but not as well and with worse timing. well done on stockpiling the top-5 picks and having a nice team, now. back off on the lecturing. you guys did the same damn thing, you just had a pair of generational talents to cover over the mistakes.

Edited by aziz
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@aziz

I think you're missing his point entirely. He's not laughing at you guys, he's pointing things out because we've watched our franchise make the same mistakes. Worse in fact as he pointed out getting nothing for Jagr in the first place.

I'll agree Leclair was a waste for the Pens to try, but Gonchar was great and Recchi proved a great teacher for Sid & Co. As did Guerin and Roberts. I'll disagree with your attempt at comparison there.

As for the losing Carle bit, that was a mistake that has left you with the Streit contract. And don't forget you lost Jagr in that wait too, who apparently was instrumental in Giroux's success at the time.

Actually I think B21 was more right than you think. We both know this because as he said, our team screwed it all up before yours did. He even credited the Flyers for getting good prospects for Carter and Richards where the Pens failed to get anything.

I think you're reading too much into it and being defensive rather than seeing his true intentions in the post.

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@aziz

 

Wow - and you once said I was a paranoid Pens fan?  b-b-b-b-b-but the Pens??

 

So I'm not permitted to disagree with a Flyers fan who thinks your team is rebuidling now when there are multiple moves over the last severeal years that would indicate otherwise?

 

1) Yes - adding Gonchar, Palffy, LeClair and Recchi (and trading for Thibault, too) was not part of any rebuilding effort by the Pens.  Not sure why you brought that up. However, trading Jagr, Kovalev, Straka, etc, was part of a rebuilding effort.  Money issues - but still a rebuild. 

 

2) I have no problem with four 1st rounds picks for Weber. But that move is not something a team that is rebuilding does (the point I was trying to make).  That's a move made by a team that is a shut-down d-man away from being a legitimate Cup contender.  On the surface, I'd make it, too.  However, if you are rebuilding your roster (which means accepting that you are not a contender) a GM would be insane to make that move.

 

3) Parise/Suter. See Weber. Not knocking the effort on the surface.  Can't call it rebuilding.

 

4). Bryzaster/Bob. See Weber/Suter/Parise. Not knocking the moves on the surface.  Can't call it rebuilding.

 

When you rebuild anything...including an NHL roster...you knock most if not all of it down...and start over.  That's not what they Flyers have done - ever.  Certainly not what they are doing now.  Exhibit A - VLC and Streit.  The point I was trying to make to the other poster.

 

<<< annoys me when penguins fans get all "you did it wrong" preachy. you guys had the luck of sucking phenomenally at the very moments crosby and malkin entered the league. actually, sucked phenomenally for several years, bracketing their entry, just to be safe. toronto and NYR and edmonton and calgary have sucked, too, but not as well and with worse timing. well done on stockpiling the top-5 picks and having a nice team, now. back off on the lecturing. you guys did the same damn thing, you just had a pair of generational talents to cover over the mistakes. >>>

 

Almost as annoying as paranoid Flyers fans completely misinterpreting the point.  Again - I'm not knocking the moves in and of themselves.  I'm pointing out that these moves are not part of some rebuilding effort and most of your fellow fans agree.

 

Trust me - the Pens fans here are more than aware of our good fortune when it comes to the timing of our "suckiness".  I know I've acknowledged it on several occasions.

 

So you might want to take you own advise and "back off" your own lecturing.   

 

Apology accepted. 

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We got Kris Beech, Michel Sivek, Ross Lupaschuk, Rico Fata, Martin Strbak, Sergei Anshakov, et al.

 

Ah the good old days!  I loved every minute of that era :P .  Rico Fata was your best player there for a while

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Ah the good old days!  I loved every minute of that era :P .  Rico Fata was your best player there for a while

 

During the low point - the 2003-04 season - Dick Tarnstrom led the Pens with 52 points.

 

Rico has 16 G / 18 A....and was -46.

 

:wacko:

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When you rebuild anything...including an NHL roster...you knock most if not all of it down...and start over.  That's not what they Flyers have done - ever.  Certainly not what they are doing now.  Exhibit A - VLC and Streit.  The point I was trying to make to the other poster.

 

what is "knocking most if not all of it down", if not getting rid of 3/4's of your roster over 3 years?  what is "starting over" if not bringing in an almost entirely new cast, both prospects and vets?  there isn't a team i can think of that has "rebuilt" without adding vets to the mix while bringing their prospects up.  chicago did it with havlat, sharp, lapointe, vrbata.  boston with chara, murray, savard, stuart.  pittsburgh with gonchar, recchi, leclair.  it is part of the process.  no one rebuilds by going with sub-23 yearold players exclusively.  outside of edmonton, anyway.  and look how well that is working out.

 

weber would have provided a long term defensive centerpiece around which to build.  it would have been entirely in line with the concept of rebuilding.  bryzgalov, too, outside of the fact he was terrible.  the perceived talent level coupled to the long term contracts added up to putting a stabilized core in place that the rest of the team could be constructed on.  streit and VLC were signed to 4 year deals as bridges between now and the future, again, supposedly providing an experienced structure for the youth of the team to grow around.  we can talk about those guys being the wrong skill sets for the job, but the intention doesn't conflict with the idea of rebuilding the team.  again, it is exactly what boston did, chicago, LA.  none of these teams rolled with rosters consisting entirely of kids under 25.  they added vets in key roles each year.  if they hadn't, they'd still be sharing space with the oilers in the league's basement.

 

trading for rentals at the deadline is not rebuilding.  trading NHL-ready prospects for old players on short contracts is not rebuilding.  lining your young team with veteran players, either as shortterm guidance or as a long term core, absolutely can be.

 

many of my fellow fans both want the entire roster to be traded and think the worst thing about holmgren/snider is that they always trade the entire roster.  so, many of them seeing all things in the most dire (and often mutually exclusive) terms possible is not surprising.

 

no apology intended.  you're taking your shots when you can.  i get it, but it still is what it is.

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