Giroux? And What to do next?

[King Knut]

Giroux is the life blood of this team. Period.

No captain and perhaps no single player has been this central to a flyers team in some time. -for better or worse.

As Giroux goes so goes the team. They feed off him. They seem to almost unconsciously follow his lead in almost all things on the ice. It's scary to be honest.

But besides that, the guy is inching toward a point per game again which is amazing considering where he started out. He plays more minutes per game than anyone besides coburn (who you all hate too). A center playing more minutes per game than 5 of 6 defenseman! Think in that. He plays any situation needed well and he has that extremely special ability to create a play out I nothing.

Stamkos can score from anywhere and that's amazing and he's given MSL a second career, but Claude turns a dead play into something special when he has the puck an he doesn't just make the players around him better, he makes them look alive.

He doesn't have the size, but the guy he reminds me Of is Forsberg. He knows he can take control of the game and often does. When he's in that zone, he almost looks like he fails himself, not that the other guys stopped him.

Trading JVR for Luke was moronic. JVR could have grown into the line mate Claude needed, but they were both learning together and JVR is a follower not a leader who can't really handle pressure well so he needed a different situation o learn and grow.

As it is, Claude makes everyone he plays with better.

He, Coots and Simmer are the future of this team.

If you consider trading any if them, then someone named Weber had better be coming back in return. But for Giroux... I honestly don't know what I'd give him up for.

I would have liked him to play like this from the start but Homer let his best allies slip away and then Claude missed training camp (and the te squandered it with a coach that wasn't to make it two weeks into the season).

Is he a Stamkos? No, but he's something different too. He has things to his game that Stamkos or other "elite" players don't have.

Give him a John LeClair to play with and watch what he does. But in the mean time let's all stop pretending he's a disappointment. He's a hero.

[doom88]

He's not a hero, and not elite. He's a very good center who still has to work on consistency and defense. Nothing more, nothing less, in my opinion.

[caluso]

Giroux is the life blood of this team. Period.

No captain and perhaps no single player has been this central to a flyers team in some time. -for better or worse.

As Giroux goes so goes the team. They feed off him. They seem to almost unconsciously follow his lead in almost all things on the ice. It's scary to be honest.

But besides that, the guy is inching toward a point per game again which is amazing considering where he started out. He plays more minutes per game than anyone besides coburn (who you all hate too). A center playing more minutes per game than 5 of 6 defenseman! Think in that. He plays any situation needed well and he has that extremely special ability to create a play out I nothing.

Stamkos can score from anywhere and that's amazing and he's given MSL a second career, but Claude turns a dead play into something special when he has the puck an he doesn't just make the players around him better, he makes them look alive.

He doesn't have the size, but the guy he reminds me Of is Forsberg. He knows he can take control of the game and often does. When he's in that zone, he almost looks like he fails himself, not that the other guys stopped him.

Trading JVR for Luke was moronic. JVR could have grown into the line mate Claude needed, but they were both learning together and JVR is a follower not a leader who can't really handle pressure well so he needed a different situation o learn and grow.

As it is, Claude makes everyone he plays with better.

He, Coots and Simmer are the future of this team.

If you consider trading any if them, then someone named Weber had better be coming back in return. But for Giroux... I honestly don't know what I'd give him up for.

I would have liked him to play like this from the start but Homer let his best allies slip away and then Claude missed training camp (and the te squandered it with a coach that wasn't to make it two weeks into the season).

Is he a Stamkos? No, but he's something different too. He has things to his game that Stamkos or other "elite" players don't have.

Give him a John LeClair to play with and watch what he does. But in the mean time let's all stop pretending he's a disappointment. He's a hero.

"A hero refers to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity."

 

Giroux is far from a "hero." I am not saying he is a disappointment, but he aint a hero.

 

I like Giroux, I think he has amazing hands and plays as if he cares - most of the time. The real question is: is he worth 8 million per year in a hard salary cap league? I am not sure.

 

I disagree with a lot of what you posted.  Who does he make better? Why has his line had at least 4 different wingers, outside of Voracek, already this year? In fact, last year Giroux said he was lucky to be playing with Voracek, who is always looking to set Giroux up, for better or worse.

 

Also, you said that "he has things to his game that other elite players don't have." Can you be more specific. 

 

The biggest assertion which I wholeheartedly disagree with is that "he can take control of the game and often does." Really? How many games has he singlehandedly won for us?

 

Like I said, I like Giroux, but I think your perception of him is a little unrealistic.

Edited January 30, 2014 by caluso

[King Knut]

Fine. You're right. I hope for your sake they trade him for bupkis and the team never makes the playoffs again.

It would bensonmich better than paying someone of giroux's caliber that much money.

This board often makes me wonder what hockey you guys are watching, what hockey you grew up watching.

It's like y'all went to the Timmy P. and Sammy C. College of Whitney brat haters or something.

You want evidence? When did the team start winning again this season?

All Those guys like Raffl and VLC who left his line? How are they looking since leaving?

He's not a god, he's not 100%, but no one is except St. Stamkos or Satan Crosby maybe.

Thanks for the textbook definition of a hero. Mind reciting the text book definition of "pain in the ass" for us too? Never mind, just look up metaphor and hyperbole and leave it at that.

How can you have even watched any of this season alone and disagree with the fact that The team goes and Giroux goes? When he's up, they're up. There's more to the game than the score sheet, but he happens to be leading that in most categories too.

You're grumpy because he's not Stamkos. Sorry about that. Good luck getting over it.

Myself, I'm happy tht he is Giroux and I'm not sorry about that.

"A hero refers to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity."

Giroux is far from a "hero." I am not saying he is a disappointment, but he aint a hero.

I like Giroux, I think he has amazing hands and plays as if he cares - most of the time. The real question is: is he worth 8 million per year in a hard salary cap league? I am not sure.

I disagree with a lot of what you posted. Who does he make better? Why has his line had at least 4 different wingers, outside of Voracek, already this year? In fact, last year Giroux said he was lucky to be playing with Voracek, who is always looking to set Giroux up, for better or worse.

Also, you said that "he has things to his game that other elite players don't have." Can you be more specific.

The biggest assertion which I wholeheartedly disagree with is that "he can take control of the game and often does." Really? How many games has he singlehandedly won for us?

Like I said, I like Giroux, but I think your perception of him is a little unrealistic.

Edited January 30, 2014 by King Knut

[B21]

@aziz

 

what is "knocking most if not all of it down", if not getting rid of 3/4's of your roster over 3 years?  what is "starting over" if not bringing in an almost entirely new cast, both prospects and vets?  there isn't a team i can think of that has "rebuilt" without adding vets to the mix while bringing their prospects up.  chicago did it with havlat, sharp, lapointe, vrbata.  boston with chara, murray, savard, stuart.  pittsburgh with gonchar, recchi, leclair.  it is part of the process.  no one rebuilds by going with sub-23 yearold players exclusively.  outside of edmonton, anyway.  and look how well that is working out.

 

 

I’ll argue Chicago never really tried to rebuild. For the better part of the 2000’s they went the route of acquiring established veteran players in an effort to get back into the playoffs with no success at all.

Khabibulin. Aucoin. Sharp. Havlat. Handzuz.

 

That lack of success during that time put them in the position to draft Kane (1^st overall - 2007) and Toews  (3^rd overall - 2006) in back to back years.

 

Only after their arrival in 2007-08 and, at the same time, the emergence of Keith and Seabrook did Chicago become a contender.  Some of those veteran acquisitions (like Sharp) became a big part of their plans and others were added after Kane/Toews (like Brian Campbell and Hossa) once it was clear a very worthwhile core was in place. But it wasn’t’ some massive rebuilding effort  that put them in that position.  They weren’t jettisoning veterans for picks and prospects.  The were  chasing (and often adding) top free agents every year.

 

Pittsburgh was in the middle of rebuilding when it added those veterans.  How well did that work out? It didn't. Only Gonchar survived and really – it was adding top 5 pick after top 5 pick (Malkin and Staal came after those ill-fated F/A signings) that made the Penguins.   Not big splashes in free agency. 

 

 

weber would have provided a long term defensive centerpiece around which to build.  it would have been entirely in line with the concept of rebuilding.  bryzgalov, too, outside of the fact he was terrible.  the perceived talent level coupled to the long term contracts added up to putting a stabilized core in place that the rest of the team could be constructed on.  streit and VLC were signed to 4 year deals as bridges between now and the future, again, supposedly providing an experienced structure for the youth of the team to grow around.  we can talk about those guys being the wrong skill sets for the job, but the intention doesn't conflict with the idea of rebuilding the team.

 

Of course Weber would have been a nice long term centerpiece….but when you are coming off a 103 point season in which you made it to the conference semis, that move is not part of some kind of rebuilding effort.  That’s a move a team makes when it thinks it is a shut down d-man away from being a serious Cup contender.  Rebuilding teams do not give up four 1^st rounds picks for a single player. Teams coming off 103 points seasons are not trying to rebuild either.

 

If the Streit and VLC deals were 2 years long then I’d buy the “bridge” argument. But 4 and 5 years? I won’t be convinced that those were not moves made because the mindset of the owner and GM were “These guys will get us back into the playoffs this seasons and we’ll deal with the tail end of these deals when these two broken down players are taking up $10,000,000 of precious cap space”. Bridge moves? More like “win now” moves.

 

 

trading for rentals at the deadline is not rebuilding.  trading NHL-ready prospects for old players on short contracts is not rebuilding. 

 

Agree.  Have never said otherwise.

 

lining your young team with veteran players, either as shortterm guidance or as a long term core, absolutely can be.

 

Agree. Just not applicable to what the Flyers are doing.

 

 

no apology intended.  you're taking your shots when you can.  i get it, but it still is what it is.

 

Dippy Doo – I’m not taking shots.  If you can't see my prior comments as an honest assessment of your team (one some pretty knowledgeable fellow fans of yours have echoed on more than one occasion) then you really are the paranoid Flyers fan who can't take even a hint of negativity about your team coming from a Pens fan. And I'm not even being negtive...I'm just saying the Flyers moves in the last 2-3 seasons are not rebuilding moves.  If you want to win now, these are the kinds of moves you make.

 

I'm also not saying there is anything wrong with always wanting to win now or making short-signed moves in an effort to win now. 

 

I had no issue with the effort to sign Weber. I had no issue with making a run at an established netminder and trading the still-developing-at-the-time netminder (you got the wrong established guy but that’s 20/20 hindsight).  I have no issue with brining in a veteran forward and veteran puck-moving d-man as part of a clear plan to win now (again, hindsight is 20/20 as far as those moves not working out).

 

But don’t sit there and tell me these are all part of some rebuilding effort.  The Flyers have always retooled/revamped/rewhatevered on the fly and did so this offseason as well.

[caluso]

Fine. You're right. I hope for your sake they trade him for bupkis and the team never makes the playoffs again.

It would bensonmich better than paying someone of giroux's caliber that much money.

This board often makes me wonder what hockey you guys are watching, what hockey you grew up watching.

It's like y'all went to the Timmy P. and Sammy C. College of Whitney brat haters or something.

You want evidence? When did the team start winning again this season?

All Those guys like Raffl and VLC who left his line? How are they looking since leaving?

He's not a god, he's not 100%, but no one is except St. Stamkos or Satan Crosby maybe.

Thanks for the textbook definition of a hero. Mind reciting the text book definition of "pain in the ass" for us too? Never mind, just look up metaphor and hyperbole and leave it at that.

How can you have even watched any of this season alone and disagree with the fact that The team goes and Giroux goes? When he's up, they're up. There's more to the game than the score sheet, but he happens to be leading that in most categories too.

You're grumpy because he's not Stamkos. Sorry about that. Good luck getting over it.

Myself, I'm happy tht he is Giroux and I'm not sorry about that.

 

i never compared giroux to stamkos. and, again, i like giroux. i am just not sure he is worth 8 million per year.

 

and if your argument is that if giroux - and the top line - play well, then so will the team. ok, makes sense, especially because the top line sees a disproportionate amount of ice time.

 

but, if you are trying to convince me that giroux is "carrying" the team, then i don't buy it.

[flyercanuck]

@caluso

 

 I don't think anyone other than Paul Holmgren thinks Giroux is worth 8 million. And that includes Giroux.

[caluso]

@caluso

 

 I don't think anyone other than Paul Holmgren thinks Giroux is worth 8 million. And that includes Giroux.

thats funny. and sad, at the same time.

 

when will they take Gomer's keys away?

[flyercanuck]

@caluso

 

I hope he steps down after this season...but I'm not holding my breath.

[murraycraven]

when will they take Gomer's keys away?

 

after he trades away Giroux before that ridiculous contract kicks in

[jammer2]

  I think G does have elite skill. It does not translate directly into points, but his skill is off the charts. Nobody else in this league could have scored that no look back hand roof job he pulled off last month...*that* was elite in my books. His vision is top 10 in the league, he sees the game as good as any elite star out there. Now....turning that into consistency, that is the challenge that awaits him moving forward.

[hf101]

Only after their arrival in 2007-08 and, at the same time, the emergence of Keith and Seabrook did Chicago become a contender.  Some of those veteran acquisitions (like Sharp) became a big part of their plans and others were added after Kane/Toews (like Brian Campbell and Hossa) once it was clear a very worthwhile core was in place. But it wasn’t’ some massive rebuilding effort  that put them in that position.  They weren’t jettisoning veterans for picks and prospects.  The were  chasing (and often adding) top free agents every year.

 

The biggest change in the Blackhawks success imo came after Rocky Wirtz took over the franchise after his father Bill Wirtz died in 2007.  He changed the philosophy of the front office making a concerted effort to rebuild the team.  

[JackStraw]

I think G does have elite skill. It does not translate directly into points

Someone on hfboards just posted that Giroux is 2nd in points over the last three seasons (behind Malkin). Even if you put Crosby ahead of him because of the time he's missed due to injuries, that still makes Giroux pretty damn elite.

[pilldoc]

Someone on hfboards just posted that Giroux is 2nd in points over the last three seasons (behind Malkin). Even if you put Crosby ahead of him because of the time he's missed due to injuries, that still makes Giroux pretty damn elite.

Wow! That is an interesting stat.

[iban3z]

He puts up pts that are averages 1pt or more per game. He's a top 20 player and if you tried to trade him you are not going to get any player who's ranking higher than him. Not every player is a Crosby, ovechkin, Stamkos, towes... But Giroux is a good player and still hasn't reached his full potential.. Let him be...

[caluso]

He puts up pts that are averages 1pt or more per game. He's a top 20 player and if you tried to trade him you are not going to get any player who's ranking higher than him. Not every player is a Crosby, ovechkin, Stamkos, towes... But Giroux is a good player and still hasn't reached his full potential.. Let him be...

starting next year - excluding any buyouts - he will be tied for the 8th/9th highest player in the league and the 4th highest paid forward.

 

is he worth that?

[JackStraw]

starting next year - excluding any buyouts - he will be tied for the 8th/9th highest player in the league and the 4th highest paid forward.

 

is he worth that?

Second in the league in points over the last three years... Sounds about right to me.

[JackStraw]

Apologies for getting all my material from hfboards, but...

NHL point leaders since the start of the 09-10 Playoffs (reg and post season games):

Giroux: 319 points (307 games)

Kane: 311 points (317 games)

St. Louis: 306 points (280 games)

H. Sedin: 304 points (306 games)

Ovechkin: 294 points (286 games)

D. Sedin : 290 points (300 games)

Thornton: 286 points (314 games)

Toews: 284 points (300 games)

Stamkos: 281 points (247 games)

Zetterberg: 279 points (287 games)

NHL PPG leaders since the start of the 09-10 Playoffs (reg and post season games):

Crosby: 1.48 PPG

Malkin: 1.18 PPG

Stamkos: 1.14 PPG

St. Louis: 1.09 PPG

Giroux: 1.04 PPG

Ovechkin: 1.03 PPG

Getzlaf: 0.99 PPG

Datsyuk: 0.99 PPG

Kane: 0.98 PPG

Tavares: 0.97 PPG

[OccamsRazor]

Apologies for getting all my material from hfboards, but...

NHL point leaders since the start of the 09-10 Playoffs (reg and post season games):

Giroux: 319 points (307 games)

Kane: 311 points (317 games)

St. Louis: 306 points (280 games)

H. Sedin: 304 points (306 games)

Ovechkin: 294 points (286 games)

D. Sedin : 290 points (300 games)

Thornton: 286 points (314 games)

Toews: 284 points (300 games)

Stamkos: 281 points (247 games)

Zetterberg: 279 points (287 games)

NHL PPG leaders since the start of the 09-10 Playoffs (reg and post season games):

Crosby: 1.48 PPG

Malkin: 1.18 PPG

Stamkos: 1.14 PPG

St. Louis: 1.09 PPG

Giroux: 1.04 PPG

Ovechkin: 1.03 PPG

Getzlaf: 0.99 PPG

Datsyuk: 0.99 PPG

Kane: 0.98 PPG

Tavares: 0.97 PPG

 

 

Wow some very interesting stats thanks for sharing...

 

 

...phlfly is not going to like that.....some where he is scaling a bridge....someone  get to him quick but who ?

 

I know IrishJim will save him....too late...

[caluso]

Second in the league in points over the last three years... Sounds about right to me.

as i said, i am truly not sure. only time will tell. he's a great player, no doubt, but...

[radoran]

Second in the league in points over the last three years... Sounds about right to me.

 

Which is somewhat of a function of playing more games over that stretch than some other people - you know what they say about statistics...

 

You know who has more points than Giroux this season and last? Kunitz.

 

This year and last Giroux's 12th and this year he's sitting 20th. Still obviously a talented, impact player but that's not the trend line we'd like to see.

 

Very nice game today against the Kings. 

 

Running the numbers, Vanek is near the same PPG over the past two years as Giroux (playing fewer games). Is there a chance they could have a Vanek-Giroux-Voracek line?

[doom88]

Including that utterly insane playoff series with the Penguins absolutely throws off stats. That had like 50 goals scored.

[JackStraw]

@radoran - eh, right around the same number of games as Tavares, MSL, Kessel, and Kane (not to mention others who are below him in pts):

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

You can always parse stats one way or another but I'd say looking at the big picture, Giroux is an elite player in the NHL.

[flyercanuck]

Giroux is a very good player. I don't consider him in Crosbys league... and I think he's overpaid. Not by a lot, but I'd like him a lot better at $7 m a year.. But that's Holmgrens stupidity. At least he doesn't suck like Bryz or Briere (the last 2 years) And at least he's only in his mid-20s.

[B21]

The biggest change in the Blackhawks success imo came after Rocky Wirtz took over the franchise after his father Bill Wirtz died in 2007.  He changed the philosophy of the front office making a concerted effort to rebuild the team.  

 

Kinda.  His biggest impact was the philosophy as you said.  Putting home games back on TV.  They kept at it with "building" through free agent aquisitions except by the time 2007 rolled around they were adding them to a team with Kane, Toews and Keith.  The younger Wirz certainly does get the credit for the turnaround but it was more than just about the on ice product in the Hawks case.