Downie sucks

[flyerrod]

Actually per the phantoms website he is listed as a RW. You could also move Raffl up to the 3rd line and call up Vandevelde to play on the 4th line with Rinaldo and Hall. Bottom line I believe there are better options than Downie within the organization to play that 3rd line role on the wing.

I actually like that idea going forward. If Downie does not get back to playing like he did when he was traded for, I think this is an excellent option. It will be cheaper too for next season which I fully expect Downie to be gone regardless of his play.

[jammer2]

@jammer2

Actually per the phantoms website he is listed as a RW.   You could also move Raffl up to the 3rd line and call up Vandevelde to play on the 4th line with Rinaldo and Hall.  Bottom line I believe there are better options than Downie within the organization to play that 3rd line role on the wing.  

 

 Hmmm, the Phantoms must have converted him to winger? I know he was a center in Juniors, he centered a line with Jeff Skinner and Jeremy Morin. With the glut on the Flyers at the center position, it makes sense to switch him over to wing, either that or his career ends before it even starts.

[fanaticV3.0]

I hated that we traded for him but was willing to eat a little crow when he initially played well.

But now, if you want a turnover give the puck to him.

He shouldn't have been a hockey player. He could have been a very successful professional exorcist: he rarely meets a possession he can't quickly end.

 

I didn't like him when he was here the first time, didn't like the trade to bring him back, but he looked ok here for a time. He's definitely not a loose canon anymore, but he sucks as a hockey player now, so there's that. He stinks and I want nothing to do with him when his contract is up in the off season.

[mojo1917]

He's been bad lately, but I wouldn't undo the trade.  Talbot wasn't very effective either this season for us so...someone said it was a trade of middling players needing a change of scenery/roles, and that hit the nail on the head IMO.

 

Initially he did provide a spark on the 3rd line, now he's looking pretty slow and mighty stupid , is it attitude ? injury ?  

 

I wonder if he's not down with the lockeroom vibe as @Ladyneat is opining,

 

For a guy in a contract year he's not exactly making a good case for himself to be paid very well.

 

Regardless, he's been more effective as a healthy scratch than on the ice, there will be no takers at the trade deadline so i'd let him walk at the end of the year unless all of the sudden he starts to give a **** again, with a promise of continued **** giving..

[Mad Dog]

This trade is pretty much in line with just about every trade Homer made.  I swear the way this guy operates is he identifies some decent, albeit overpriced, players to nab in the off-season.  If that plan fails, he then makes trades just for the sake of making a trade so nobody could accuse him of just doing nothing. 

 

And this is a clear illustration of that mindset.  Not that this particular trade of Downie for Talbot was anything world shaddering, but what exactly was the point in the first place?  90% of Homer's deals just don't make any sense.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Mad Dog

[ruxpin]

If all the raindrops were lemon drops and gumdrops?
Oh what a rain that would be.
Standing outside with my mouth open wide.
Ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh.
If all the raindrops were lemon drops and gumdrops?
Oh what a rain that would be.

If all the snowflakes were candy bars and milkshakes?
Oh what a snow that would be.
Standing outside with my mouth open wide.
Ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh.
If all the snowflakes were candy bars and milkshakes?
Oh what a snow that would be.

If all the sun beams were bubble gum and ice cream?
Oh what a sun that would be.
Standing outside with my mouth open wide.
Ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh-ahh.
If all the sun beams were bubble gum and ice cream?
Oh what a sun that would be.
 

[aziz]

[JackStraw]

This trade is pretty much in line with just about every trade Homer made.  I swear the way this guy operates is he identifies some decent, albeit overpriced, players to nab in the off-season.  If that plan fails, he then makes trades just for the sake of making a trade so nobody could accuse him of just doing nothing. 

 

And this is a clear illustration of that mindset.  Not that this particular trade of Downie for Talbot was anything world shaddering, but what exactly was the point in the first place?  90% of Homer's deals just don't make any sense.

 

It makes sense as a way to clear cap space. Talbot is under contract for two years after this one. Downie is probably gone after this year. Essentially it's low reward for basically no risk.

[flyercanuck]

It makes sense as a way to clear cap space. Talbot is under contract for two years after this one. Downie is probably gone after this year. Essentially it's low reward for basically no risk.

 

 

 Bingo!

 

 Now, stopping Homer from blowing that capspace before it's even freed up is another thing altogether.

[JackStraw]

 Bingo!

 

 Now, stopping Homer from blowing that capspace before it's even freed up is another thing altogether.

 

So... what do I win?

[flyercanuck]

@JackStraw

 

 His name-O?

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

 

 His name-O?

 

My dog already has a name.

[aziz]

It makes sense as a way to clear cap space. Talbot is under contract for two years after this one. Downie is probably gone after this year. Essentially it's low reward for basically no risk.

 

and like i said earlier, it made sense from a needs perspective, too.  albeit a minor needs perspective.  the flyers couldn't score goals to save their life, and had the 3rd and 4th lines pretty well established.  talbot was unneeded, to the point of being a logistical problem.  plus, was mopey about his role.  downie isn't any better of a hockey player, but is better offensively.

 

add in the contracts for each player, and it made perfect sense.  i mean, it was like buying a carbon fiber shift knob to save weight so your car will go faster for all the effect it was likely to have...but it *does* save weight.  very very little, but still.  minor deal in both directions.

[radoran]

It makes sense as a way to clear cap space. Talbot is under contract for two years after this one. Downie is probably gone after this year. Essentially it's low reward for basically no risk.

 

Two more years? Have to make a move to clear out that space? Who was the flippin' idiot that signed him to that... oh, wait...

 

Curious to see how that $1.75M is put to use.

[radoran]

and like i said earlier, it made sense from a needs perspective, too.  albeit a minor needs perspective.  the flyers couldn't score goals to save their life, and had the 3rd and 4th lines pretty well established.  talbot was unneeded, to the point of being a logistical problem.  plus, was mopey about his role.  downie isn't any better of a hockey player, but is better offensively.

 

add in the contracts for each player, and it made perfect sense.  i mean, it was like buying a carbon fiber shift knob to save weight so your car will go faster for all the effect it was likely to have...but it *does* save weight.  very very little, but still.  minor deal in both directions.

 

yeah, it's pretty much the gnab gib of the trade world.

[flyercanuck]

Two more years? Have to make a move to clear out that space? Who was the flippin' idiot that signed him to that... oh, wait...

 

Curious to see how that $1.75M is put to use.

 

 

 He's probably working on a trade for a center, any center, who makes 1.75 as we speak.

[JackStraw]

and like i said earlier, it made sense from a needs perspective, too.  albeit a minor needs perspective.  the flyers couldn't score goals to save their life, and had the 3rd and 4th lines pretty well established.  talbot was unneeded, to the point of being a logistical problem.  plus, was mopey about his role.  downie isn't any better of a hockey player, but is better offensively.

 

add in the contracts for each player, and it made perfect sense.  i mean, it was like buying a carbon fiber shift knob to save weight so your car will go faster for all the effect it was likely to have...but it *does* save weight.  very very little, but still.  minor deal in both directions.

 

Agreed.

[Mad Dog]

@JackStraw

@aziz

 

 

 

 The two lines were basically set as far as scoring was concerned. Yes, at the time, everybody had problem scoring goals, but that was a temporary problem.  You had to anticipate that a team who has Giroux, Hartnell, Voracek, Simmonds, VLC, and B Schenn would eventually get out of scoring slump.

 

And let’s be honest - it’s not like Homer traded for an established sniper who would suddenly or magically resolve that issue.  If you throw out several outliers for each player involved, Downie’s and Talbot’s production is relatively similar, although I won’t argue that Downie is better offensively, even if not by a large margin.  But again, one has to wonder how much scoring was really expected from the guy who was destined to play on the checking line anyway.  And we are seeing now how it played out, are we not?

 

Contractually, yes, I guess I sort of see the point.  But if scoring was really that much of a perceived issue, a crafty GM could’ve found the way to put together a package that would bring a player who would actually help, which is the whole intent of any trade.  

 

 

 

 

[JackStraw]

@Mad Dog - if it clears cap space for future moves then it's ok with me. The irony is, this is one of Homer's rare forward-thinking moves and he's getting raked over the coals for it.

[aziz]

@Mad Dog

 

i think the motivating factor was talbot's being unhappy with his role.  it showed.  it needed to be dealt with, somehow.  i don't think holmgren sat down and said, "i need to improve my team, i wonder if i can move talbot for someone that will give us a boost."  i think he sat down and said, "talbot is being pissy that he's in a 9th/10th forward slot with no real chance of moving up, he isn't doing us any good right now, and i really don't need him here, i'll see if someone else wants him.  clear the air for both of us.  now, what can you get for maxime talbot?"  and downie is about right.

 

+a tiny bit of offense

+a fractionally more easily handled contract

-safe possession game

-defensive coverage

+incoming player doesn't feel like he was denied an opportunity

-incoming player is a sociopath

 

'twas a wash that wasn't supposed to accomplish much, just supposed to get rid of an unhappy camper.

Edited February 10, 2014 by aziz

[radoran]

@Mad Dog

 

i think the motivating factor was talbot's being unhappy with his role.  it showed.  it needed to be dealt with, somehow.  i don't think holmgren sat down and said, "i need to improve my team, i wonder if i can move talbot for someone that will give us a boost."  i think he sat down and said, "talbot is being pissy that he's in a 9th/10th forward slot with no real chance of moving up, he isn't doing us any good right now, and i really don't need him here, i'll see if someone else wants him.  clear the air for both of us.  now, what can you get for maxime talbot?"  and downie is about right.

 

+a tiny bit of offense

+a fractionally more easily handled contract

-safe possession game

-defensive coverage

+incoming player doesn't feel like he was denied an opportunity

-incoming player is a sociopath

 

'twas a wash that wasn't supposed to accomplish much, just supposed to get rid of an unhappy camper.

 

One of the problems was that, being a center and signed to be the third line center, he was being told to play third/fourth line wing.

 

Have a hole next year, plug it with a five year contract and try like hell to get out of it two years later.

 

Again, there was a plan when he was signed and it lasted about as long as it took the ink to dry on the contract.

 

Didn't cost a whole hell of a lot, but didn't accomplish much more than getting Talbot out of Pittsburgh and then to the Western Conference.

[King Knut]

Anyone got the numbers on the with him and without him in the lineup wins and losses?

They sure could use max on he PK since the idiots can't stay out of the box, but even if the trade was just to send a message, that alone may have been worth it considering where they were then compared to now.

@ruxpin

@murraycraven

Hmmmm me thinks we now know why the Avs were willing to trade him........ <_<

[aziz]

They sure could use max on he PK since the idiots can't stay out of the box, but even if the trade was just to send a message, that alone may have been worth it considering where they were then compared to now.

 

the PK is doing pretty ok without him.  in fact, the PK is a good micro of the reason talbot was shipped out.  giroux, hall, couturier, read are a pretty solid penalty killing group.  hall would be the one that talbot would replace, but it's pretty much one-for-one there, except hall is better on faceoffs.  don't really want to make that swap, either.  so, talbot isn't on either of the primary PK units.  that being the case, what's the point?  keeping a defensive/PK specialist around when you have a handful of better defensive/PK skaters...why?  and again, add in grumble grumble that talbot wasn't going to see any time in the top 6 or on the PP, and why keep him around?  he was an extra body good at stuff that others did better.

[aziz]

Anyone got the numbers on the with him and without him in the lineup wins and losses?

 

this season?  3-8 with him, 27-15-6 after he left.

[ruxpin]

Anyone got the numbers on the with him and without him in the lineup wins and losses?

They sure could use max on he PK since the idiots can't stay out of the box, but even if the trade was just to send a message, that alone may have been worth it considering where they were then compared to now.

 

 

Yeah, I buy that.  And aziz, in particular, has done a great job of explaining the trade.

 

(the rest isn't directed to you King, but just musing to the thread in general)

 

For me, the trade itself and "Downie sucks" are two different issues, although I know aziz and a couple others explaining the trade are doing so because the trade itself was made an issue.  So I'm just saying "for me."

 

I'm not trying to turn Talbot into a Jon Sim cause celeb.  As far as I'm concerned, he was doing nothing here.  Unhappy or not.   I understand the reasons he may not have been happy and good on a GM for getting him out and getting something in return (and this from someone who actually liked Talbot when we got him).  The fact of the matter is that planning or not on the part of this organization (can we please get a "NOT!") it was an okay move on its own.  In fact, it was good enough that at the time some people (myself included) wondered why Colorado would do that trade given their depth at center and the fact they were trading a winger they were using on their first line for Talbot.

 

I get all that.

 

But given his play the last month or maybe more (I haven't gone back to target when I think his play hit the toilet. I'll let someone else do that leg work), my whole initial rant was simply that DOWNIE SUCKS.  It doesn't matter to me whether we traded Talbot or Giroux for him or if we got him while picking up 19¢ rolls of toilet paper at Dollar General.  Just the player, with no external factors, sucks to me.

 

Presumably we got him for offense.   1 point (an assist) in all of January.   Since December 2, he has a whoping 2G 6A.   8 pts in 28 games.  That projects to 24 points over 82 games.  (6 goals)   That's Nodl numbers.

 

Defense?  Non-existent.  He's -7 since December 2.

 

I realize if you decide you don't like a player that you can watch any game and pick out a handful of times ANY player makes a boneheaded move and yell "See!" at the top of your lungs.   But the last 3-4 games he's played I expect a turnover, a dumb play, a loss of possession, death by neglect, or something every time I see him on the ice.  And with the exception of death by neglect, he has yet to let me down.

 

Maybe it's the concussion.  Maybe he IS playing fearful of contact.  Actually, I'm willing to believe that whomever said that may be on to something.  I realize there isn't exactly a stable of people ready to take his place.  I mean, if McGinn is the first call-up, the pond can't be terribly stocked.  

 

But I'm having a very difficult time thinking they can't come up with a reasonably defensively responsible player that is capable of a whopping 8 points in 28 games.   Even someone that simply comes up with a better net (8 pts. - 7 = ONE net).   Maybe it's a cap issue or not wanting to waste someone's eligibility or whatever, but as uneducated as my eye is, I have to imagine they can do at least as well for cheaper.  At least someone who seemingly wants to be out there.

 

[/rant]