Meltzer on Morin

[flyercanuck]

Considering that the Flyers have Giroux-VLC/Schenn-Couturier down the middle for the forseeable future, would you want Laughton in a fourth line role?

 

I think he'd be better off getting offensive minutes in the A.

 

 Which is why I said "in a pinch" (as in injury, trade, VLC and Schenn run off and elope etc)

[flyercanuck]

@fanaticV3.0

 

 I think there's a big difference between thinking a player who's developing well in junior (Richards  Carter, Laughton, whoever) has a good career, or that they come in THAT year and lead to big things.

 

 I think it's possible Laughton eventually ends up being a good 2nd line center. I'm pretty sure he'll at least be a good 3rd or 4th line center. I doubt verymuch he's going to come in and win us a cup next year.

 

 As for Woywitka and St. Jacques, the former played in the Dub, the latter in the Q. I had no idea what we were getting in them, but they certainly weren't bluechip prospects.

[radoran]

This is either revisionist history or we were hanging out in different places, because I can't even count how many people I talked to (both online and off) who penciled them in as starters. It's the same type of mindset that thought the addition of the kids to the 06-07 team was going to  lead to big things that year.

 

St. Jacques was the 253rd pick. If anyone was pencilling him in as a starter, you should try to get them to share whatever it is they were on.

 

Another example that you can find people on message boards that say all sorts of silly things (including your humble narrator)

 

I remember another pairing with Woywitka as a "defenseman of the future" but can't recall the name. Ryan Bast?

Then of course there was "will never amount to anything" Dennis Seidenberg.

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

 I looked up Bast cause the name sounded familiar. Wasn't drafted, bounced around the IHL,ECHL and AHL before Philly had him up for 2 games. All he ever saw in the NHL.

[radoran]

@radoran

 

 I looked up Bast cause the name sounded familiar. Wasn't drafted, bounced around the IHL,ECHL and AHL before Philly had him up for 2 games. All he ever saw in the NHL.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure it was Bast, but there was another guy in the Woywitka era that was touted highly (it wasn't St. Jacques and I don't think it was Pitkanen).

 

That said, lotsa folks who follow that "Junior" thing were very excited about Bast IIRC.

[aziz]

@radoran

That was right around the Kim Johnsson era, wasn't it? There was, like, a five minute window when we were all pretty excited about him.

[brelic]

Yeah, I'm not sure it was Bast, but there was another guy in the Woywitka era that was touted highly (it wasn't St. Jacques and I don't think it was Pitkanen).

 

That said, lotsa folks who follow that "Junior" thing were very excited about Bast IIRC.

That was around the same time as Freddy Meyer IV, Behold Randy, and Seidenberg.

Why did we get rid of Seidenberg, anyway? I mean, he wasn't great when we had him, but he definitely showed promise.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just looked it up. It was for past-his-hardly-ever-had-one-prime Nedved. We traded what became a 2nd pairing defenseman with a 12 year career so far for a guy who got all of 2 playoff points for us (the initial reason we got him), and 21 points over 50 games for the Flyers.

[radoran]

That was around the same time as Freddy Meyer IV, Behold Randy, and Seidenberg.

Why did we get rid of Seidenberg, anyway? I mean, he wasn't great when we had him, but he definitely showed promise.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just looked it up. It was for past-his-hardly-ever-had-one-prime Nedved. We traded what became a 2nd pairing defenseman with a 12 year career so far for a guy who got all of 2 playoff points for us (the initial reason we got him), and 21 points over 50 games for the Flyers.

 

You misspelled Petr "Shutdown Center" Nedved.

 

Hitchcock couldn't see a point to Patrick Sharp, but figured Nedved was perfect for a defensive, third-line checking role...

 

Might have been Pitkanen now that i think about it.

[OccamsRazor]

I remember another pairing with Woywitka as a "defenseman of the future" but can't recall the name. Ryan Bast

 

Wasn't it Jason Beckett.

 

The 2nd rounder 42nd overall taken???

 

I remember that name from my toilet reading Hockey Digest days. 

 

After looking back over the history...

 

http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/topic/61415-important-website-references-for-the-philadelphia-flyers/

 

I remember Rossario Ruggeri name being in some of it panning out that is....but NOT!

Edited February 18, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[flyercanuck]

Yeah, I'm not sure it was Bast, but there was another guy in the Woywitka era that was touted highly (it wasn't St. Jacques and I don't think it was Pitkanen).

 

That said, lotsa folks who follow that "Junior" thing were very excited about Bast IIRC.

 

 

 Well, I follow that "junior thing" and I don't recall having seen Bast play. His name rung a bell, but I may have just seen it on an alltime Flyers roster or something.

 

 Looking at his junior stats....10 points followed by 11 points followed by 22 doesn't exactly scream exciting to me.

[radoran]

 Well, I follow that "junior thing" and I don't recall having seen Bast play. His name rung a bell, but I may have just seen it on an alltime Flyers roster or something.

 

 Looking at his junior stats....10 points followed by 11 points followed by 22 doesn't exactly scream exciting to me.

 

You watch Junior Hockey?

 

Flyers actually "acquired" Bast twice - once (his "rights" plus an 8th) in 1998 for a third rounder and then again in 2003 in the deal that brought in Kapanen (and sent away St. Jacques).

[OccamsRazor]

Wow how about 2006 draft. 

 

Joonas Lehtivuori??

 

Man seems like that was forever ago.

 

But he is just 25.

 

Offensive Dman. A little lite in the ass at 170. 

 

Whatever become of him???

 

Edit: This web site has him at 6 foot 176 that is a little better wonder which is right?

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=7452

 

Played for Modo the last 3 seasons.

Edited February 18, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[radoran]

Wow how about 2006 draft. 

 

Joonas Lehtivuori??

 

Man seems like that was forever ago.

 

But he is just 25.

 

Offensive Dman. A little lite in the ass at 170. 

 

Whatever become of him???

 

He was "loaned" to Sweden and then the Swedes defaulted on the mortgage.

[OccamsRazor]

Or the past 2009 version of Kronwall 2.0 what became of him???

 

 

Simon Bertilsson

 

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11173

 

or 

 

2010's

 

Ricard Blidstrand

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=10384

 

 

So there is proof that they have spent resources on the blueline but it just seems like they never hit on any.

 

Sad.  :blink:

Edited February 18, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[OccamsRazor]

He was "loaned" to Sweden and then the Swedes defaulted on the mortgage.

 

 

So what happens to Vasiliev if he isn't signed????

 

Do they have till june right and they lose his rights or isn't different since he is in the KHL???

 

I know as long as the prospect is in college he is exempt but i'm not sure how that works with guys playing in a different pro league.

 

Edit:

 

No matter what i just don't want to see the Flyers rush Morin to the BIG club cause they can find a stop gap till he is ready. Then you can just do damage maybe like the Devils seemed to have effin with Adam Larsson's head. One more year of juniors has never damaged anyone then let him work his way up from the A. Ain't nothing wrong with proving yourself.

Edited February 18, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[JackStraw]

You misspelled Petr "Shutdown Center" Nedved.

 

Hitchcock couldn't see a point to Patrick Sharp, but figured Nedved was perfect for a defensive, third-line checking role...

 

Might have been Pitkanen now that i think about it.

 

Actually, I do remember Nedved being very good on the PK. Nothing else to speak of, but good on the PK.

[radoran]

Actually, I do remember Nedved being very good on the PK. Nothing else to speak of, but good on the PK.

 

Well, that explains his career -21 (-28 in 49 games with Philadelphia). He was -20 in 21 games in 06-07 for the Flyers before being traded to Edmonton.

 

+/- doesn't count in the PK.

[jammer2]

  There is another X factor besides the fans and the management in regards to the impatience game,  that would be the horrible Philly media. They create and sling crap which does have an influence. They played a key role in the Lindros saga, Richards leaving early and many, many other scenarios. They may not have pulled the trigger, but they certainly did not help the situations.

[fanaticV3.0]

St. Jacques was the 253rd pick. If anyone was pencilling him in as a starter, you should try to get them to share whatever it is they were on.

 

Another example that you can find people on message boards that say all sorts of silly things (including your humble narrator)

 

I remember another pairing with Woywitka as a "defenseman of the future" but can't recall the name. Ryan Bast?

Then of course there was "will never amount to anything" Dennis Seidenberg.

 

It doesn't matter where he was picked, anyone can be overrated by the fans. I did one of my college internships with the Phantoms when they were still in Philly during the stretch run of their 01-02 season, and their very short PO season, the organization was a buzz about how "this was it" as far as his AHL career was concerned. I heard it everywhere those few months. At work, amongst my buddies, online, the radio, it was a given. Much like with Woywitka just a few years later, hew as the "defenseman of the future". It's the same mindset that thought Mike Maneluk was actually going to play with Lindros and Leclair. It's the same people who thought Jean Marc Pelletier was going to be even better than Boucher (who himself wasn't even as good as people expected).

 

I've seen this countless times from my fellow Flyers fans (and even the organization at times, because Maneluk was actually taken from the AHL and put on the top line for all of 13 games and people thought that would work). I've been guilty of it myself too. I hear you on Seidenberg, but guys like him are the exception, not the rule. More often than not the ones overhyped don't pan out vs ones being trashed later blossoming.

 

I forgot Ryan Bast existed until you even mentioned him, but I think you are right. I think he was another "he's going to be great" one.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

 I think there's a big difference between thinking a player who's developing well in junior (Richards  Carter, Laughton, whoever) has a good career, or that they come in THAT year and lead to big things.

 

 I think it's possible Laughton eventually ends up being a good 2nd line center. I'm pretty sure he'll at least be a good 3rd or 4th line center. I doubt verymuch he's going to come in and win us a cup next year.

 

 As for Woywitka and St. Jacques, the former played in the Dub, the latter in the Q. I had no idea what we were getting in them, but they certainly weren't bluechip prospects.

 

There is a difference, but hype is hype. If one guy is projected to be the cornerstone of an organization and the other a role player, but a solid one who can play many years in the league, but both fail to make it in the league, that's what I care about.

 

I don't get excited about projects or scouting reports for unproven players (whether it's a college kid, undrafted FA, or some kid in juniors). I've just seen them flop too many times to care about them until the prove they can stick around.

[aziz]

I hear you on Seidenberg, but guys like him are the exception, not the rule.

 

and even there, the chara effect is somehow overlooked continuously with seidenberg.  were he to be traded somewhere other than nashville, he'd be a 4/5 dman.  a fine 4/5 dman, but still.  being paired with the closest thing the NHL has ever had to a purpose built defensive machine does wonders for one's reputation.

Edited February 19, 2014 by aziz

[radoran]

and even there, the chara effect is somehow overlooked continuously with seidenberg.  were he to be traded somewhere other than nashville, he's be a 4/5 dman.  a fine 4/5 dman, but still.  being paired with the closest thing the NHL has ever had to a purpose built defensive machine does wonders for one's reputation.

 

That assumes the "Chara effect" was in place in Carolina where he put up 30 points in 70 games and was -9.

 

Or in Florida where he was 23 points in 62 games and -3.

 

Chara undoubtedly has an effect on his numbers in Boston (and why he is a career plus player), but to act like he was "nothing" before being paired with Chara is a little disingenuous.

[aziz]

in Carolina where he put up 30 points in 70 games and was -9.

 

you mean the season he was the team's 4th-best scoring dman and had the worst +/- among blueliners, 2nd worst on the team? 

 

Or in Florida where he was 23 points in 62 games and -3

 

?

 

30 points, 23 points, -9, -3?  you posted those figures like they are impressive, worthy of a flyers' head-in-hands.  no, there is no chara effect there.  the chara effect is dennis seidenberg being a career -26 before going to boston, +71 since.  the chara effect is hiding the fact that dennis seidenberg is just fine playing next to a guy with a 7 foot wingspan who skates amazingly well for someone that size, less so otherwise.  he's fine, but as a stand alone player, he's very pedestrian.  like i said, 2nd/3rd pair quality.  2nd/3rd pair, even if he were back in philly.  the chara effect is the defensive equivalent to the crosby effect on otherwise-ho-hum wingers.  the flyers should be no more kicking themselves over seidenberg than winnipeg/atlanta should be kicking themselves over pascal dupuis.

[fanaticV3.0]

and even there, the chara effect is somehow overlooked continuously with seidenberg.  were he to be traded somewhere other than nashville, he'd be a 4/5 dman.  a fine 4/5 dman, but still.  being paired with the closest thing the NHL has ever had to a purpose built defensive machine does wonders for one's reputation.

 

You do have to wonder how his career would have panned out if he didn't play with Chara. I do think 4-5 defenseman is a decent guess.

[radoran]

you mean the season he was the team's 4th-best scoring dman and had the worst +/- among blueliners, 2nd worst on the team? 

 

 

 

?

 

30 points, 23 points, -9, -3?  you posted those figures like they are impressive, worthy of a flyers' head-in-hands.  no, there is no chara effect there.  the chara effect is dennis seidenberg being a career -26 before going to boston, +71 since.  the chara effect is hiding the fact that dennis seidenberg is just fine playing next to a guy with a 7 foot wingspan who skates amazingly well for someone that size, less so otherwise.  he's fine, but as a stand alone player, he's very pedestrian.  like i said, 2nd/3rd pair quality.  2nd/3rd pair, even if he were back in philly.  the chara effect is the defensive equivalent to the crosby effect on otherwise-ho-hum wingers.  the flyers should be no more kicking themselves over seidenberg than winnipeg/atlanta should be kicking themselves over pascal dupuis.

 

I post them because they are in line with his top years in Boston

 

10-11 32 points in 82 games

11-12 23 points in 80 games

 

And I specifically stated that his +/- was a direct result of playing with Chara.

 

he's fine, but as a stand alone player, he's very pedestrian.

 

Couldn't agree more.