Goaltending was the difference, again.

[brelic]

Which is exactly why they are forced to play Bryzgalov for most of the starts. Your nine-year $51M NMC investment isn't going to get better sitting on the bench.

Again, the decision that was made - not necessarily the decision WE would have made...

Actually, he had his best month, statistically, when he played the least, and his worst month when he played the most

Bryz:

Oct, 4-4-1, 3.16, .880

Nov, 4-1-1, 2.52, .918

Dec, 6-3-1, 3.20, .878

Bob:

Oct, 2-0-0, 3.74, .859

Nov, 3-2-1, 2.44, .921

Dec, 3-0-0, 1.86, .935

But I digress...

"What we have here is failure to communicate"

We have a coach who goes with the hot hand, but (from what I've read), we have a goalie who plays his best when he plays a lot and not constantly feeling like his job is on the line with each bad goal he lets in.

So... 2011 was the goalie, 2012 will be the coach.

[radoran]

So... 2011 was the goalie, 2012 will be the coach.

Preach it, brother Maynard! Consult the Book of Armaments!

[aziz]

Which is exactly why they are forced to play Bryzgalov for most of the starts. Your nine-year $51M NMC investment isn't going to get better sitting on the bench.

i agreed with you a month ago, but bryzgalov has been so bad i'm wondering if it is best to pretend he doesn't have that forever contract for the rest of the season and go with bob. revisit this summer if there is any possiblity of getting rid of his contract, or giving him a fresh start next fall if not. long term the flyers may have no choice, but they kind of do for the next 6 months.

bob can learn things, can learn how to play in the NHL, whereas bryzgalov knows as much as he's ever going to know. he can get sharper, but his ceiling is set. if the flyers feel like they have to play bryzgalov, then i'm with you, he needs to get maximum icetime. i'm just no longer convinced they feel that is the case this season. i wouldn't be shocked to see bob in the driver's seat the rest of the way unless and until he loses it.

[brelic]

Preach it, brother Maynard! Consult the Book of Armaments!

Bring Laviolette to the gallows!

Well, maybe not. But I think we'll see changes on defense and it will cost us a roster forward.

[radoran]

i agreed with you a month ago, but bryzgalov has been so bad i'm wondering if it is best to pretend he doesn't have that forever contract for the rest of the season and go with bob. revisit this summer if there is any possiblity of getting rid of his contract, or giving him a fresh start next fall if not. long term the flyers may have no choice, but they kind of do for the next 6 months.

bob can learn things, can learn how to play in the NHL, whereas bryzgalov knows as much as he's ever going to know. he can get sharper, but his ceiling is set. if the flyers feel like they have to play bryzgalov, then i'm with you, he needs to get maximum icetime. i'm just no longer convinced they feel that is the case this season. i wouldn't be shocked to see bob in the driver's seat the rest of the way unless and until he loses it.

What counts as "losing it?" Giving up two momentum-changing goals in a marquee, nationally-hyped and shown game? Giving up a terrible game-tying goal to a division rival you are "outplaying" on home ice?

I would have been FINE with a "retooling" year behind Bob or with a stopgap of Vokoun for his Caps contract to allow Bob some time. That's not what this team does. This team "competes for the Stanley Cup."

Read Snider's quotes about the Classic and come back to me with the idea that "Bob will be in the driver's seat" for the rest of the season. If Ed Snider wanted one of his few remaining chances at a Cup to be behind Sergei Bobrovsky, we'd never have needed to figure out how to spell "Bryzgalov" much less ponder the infinite reaches of the Universe.

He doesn't. He won't. They won't. And God help Laviolette if he bucks all that and still comes up short in the playoffs. And by "short" I mean "doesn't win the Cup."

This isn't what I'D do. This isn't how I WANT things to go. This is how I SEE them GOING.0

I concur that Bob has room to improve and potentially a higher ceiling than Bryzgalov. I just really REALLY don't want him to "learn" here and "succeed" elsewhere... Which is what we're really looking at at this point.

[brelic]

I concur that Bob has room to improve and potentially a higher ceiling than Bryzgalov. I just really REALLY don't want him to "learn" here and "succeed" elsewhere... Which is what we're really looking at at this point.

That's the real shame of it, rad. Bryz might turn it around and give us 1,2,3,4 good seasons, but not 9. So chances are we will lose Bob along the way because he doesn't want to be the backup for a decade, and we can't move our starter for a decade.

A clear case of Snider's passion prevailing over business sense.

[JackStraw]

Preach it, brother Maynard! Consult the Book of Armaments!

Right. One... two... five.

[aziz]

What counts as "losing it?" Giving up two momentum-changing goals in a marquee, nationally-hyped and shown game? Giving up a terrible game-tying goal to a division rival you are "outplaying" on home ice?

no. rule #1 is no single game should have anything to do with a player's career. rule #2 is don't evaluate goals against based on anything other than how the goalie played them. "momentum-changing" is irrelevant as regards a goaltender's ability. he stops pucks or he doesn't stop pucks. he is responsible for soft goals and is not responsible for good shots that beat him. the timing of those are not in his control. a bad goal with a 5 goal lead is still a bad goal, and a great shot in a tie game is still a great shot.

yesterday, bob got beaten by 1)a shot through a screen from a dangerous area, but 4 feet worth of additional angle-cutting might've made the difference: push, 2)a very weak shot under the arm as he was leaning the other way: bob's fault, and 3)a tap-in on blown coverage as 3 rangers were allowed position below the dots: not bob's fault. not a great showing, but also not something that should spell doom for his seaon, and certainly not equal to the embarrasment bryzgalov has brought for the last month. the fact that it was a much-hyped game or that the softie came at a bad time shoudn't mean anything from an evaluation standpoint. yes, they are emotional add-ons for us, but have nothing to do with the goaltender's ability to stop pucks overall from any objective place.

Read Snider's quotes about the Classic and come back to me with the idea that "Bob will be in the driver's seat" for the rest of the season. If Ed Snider wanted one of his few remaining chances at a Cup to be behind Sergei Bobrovsky, we'd never have needed to figure out how to spell "Bryzgalov" much less ponder the infinite reaches of the Universe.

what quotes? show me, i don't know what you are talking about. truth be told, i don't read quotes any more than i can avoid. i accidentally see one now and then, but try to forget them as soon as i can. actions are real things, quotes are spin. action: bob was given the high profile game, even after bryzgalov's contract and becoming the star of 24/7. few quote could be as loud a statement as that.

the fact that bob was given this particular game says tons to me. for everything i said above about timing being irrelevant to the goalie's ability, timing is everything to an ultra-media-concerned owner. allowing that start yesterday takes all bets off the table for me. it means snider now believes the team has a better chance behind bob than bryzgalov, to the point he is willing to give the media extra amor-penetrating ammunition for a half season's worth of, "did the flyers screw up with this massive contract?" the fans and the press demanded he spend as much money as he could last spring, so he did, while obviously having no idea what he was getting into. the fans and the press are now demanding bryzgalov be held accountable for sucking, and as we move towards the playoffs will start demanding he get out of the way. i am not the least bit convinced snider will stand firm. he caved to reality yesterday, why not thursday? and next tuesday? and next thursay?

this is what you believe and it is what i believe. neither of us have any input or any real inside track on the innerworkings here. i was on your side until the team showed a willingness to face reality and sit their $51mil investment in the highest profile game of the year. going forward, points are going to start becoming a problem, and i think the door is open to allowing laviolette to go with the guy more likely to backstop winning efforts. which, imo, is bob. i could absolutely be wrong, but fingers are crossed.

we'll see over the next week. 4 games, with 2 of those back to back. figure the starts will split 3-1. who gets 3?

Edited January 3, 2012 by aziz

[orange_crush]

Good thing we have the highest paid goalie sitting on the bench..

[radoran]

http://phillysportsdaily.com/flyers/2012/01/02/snider-happy-with-weekend-despite-loss/

The only downside of the hugely publicized event is that the Flyers continued their tradition of goaltending issues. However, even after the Flyers cut a nine-year, $51-million contract to Winter Classic backup Ilya Brzygalov at Snider’s command this offseason, the owner shrugged away any type of controversy.

“We have two goalies and one was playing better than the other coming into the game, he won the start,” Snider said. “It’s not a big issue, we’re a team with two good goalies that will work out whatever issues they have and we’ll be in good shape.

“There’s no issue, we have no issue. We have two good goalies, we’ll be fine. We’re fighting for first place, something must be working well. It can’t be that bad.”

When asked about Bryzgalov’s increasingly odd behavior with the media, particularly his comedy routine on HBO’s “24/7″ and in announcing roster decisions against the team’s wishes, Snider was short, but not negative about how he felt about his franchise goaltender.

“I think he’s colorful,” said the chairman. “He’s a colorful guy.”

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2012/01/02/sports/doc4f0283e3b5a87652014935.txt?viewmode=fullstory

“It’s a long season,” Snider said. “He (Bryzgalov) was going through a little bit of a slump. And he knows it. Bobrovsky had played some really strong games. We’ve got two goalies. And I’m not disappointed. He’ll be fine, and I think Bryzgalov will be fine.”

----

There was another, even more positive one, but I can't recall when I saw it.

the fans and the press demanded he spend as much money as he could last spring, so he did, while obviously having no idea what he was getting into.

Too much to ask for a team that has a plan and executes it instead of listening to whatever "the press and the fans" tell them to do?

Was it the FANS who demanded Snider send his private jet for Bryz? Was it the FANS who told Holmgren he was going to sign Bryzgalov?

I don't think it was the press or the fans. It was management. They did it. Ownership. Snider.

And IF they did it "because it's what the press and the fans" wanted, then they should be fired. Twice already. A dumber, more short-sighted, smacked-ass STUPID way of running a team you will never find than "the press and the fans wanted it."

[Mad Dog]

i agreed with you a month ago, but bryzgalov has been so bad i'm wondering if it is best to pretend he doesn't have that forever contract for the rest of the season and go with bob. revisit this summer if there is any possiblity of getting rid of his contract, or giving him a fresh start next fall if not. long term the flyers may have no choice, but they kind of do for the next 6 months.

bob can learn things, can learn how to play in the NHL, whereas bryzgalov knows as much as he's ever going to know. he can get sharper, but his ceiling is set. if the flyers feel like they have to play bryzgalov, then i'm with you, he needs to get maximum icetime. i'm just no longer convinced they feel that is the case this season. i wouldn't be shocked to see bob in the driver's seat the rest of the way unless and until he loses it.

There are several problems with that, even though the Flyers, just like most of us, I think realized what a mistake they have made.

1. Propelling Bob into the starting position will basically send a signal to Bryzgalov that he is done here, which is fine, except what if Bob falters too and you have to turn to Bryz in the playoffs? Will he feel interested in playing for the team that basically said, "We don't think much of you afterall"?

2. If the team has even a little hope in trading him - which I think is possible, while difficult - they have to drive his trade value up; not down. By sitting on the bench, his trade value cannot get any lower.

3. I don't mean trivialize this, but it all comes down to his contract. Only 6 months ago they thought of this guy as a Messiah. He was supposed to be the man. But more importantly, it's going to be extremely high to justify sitting this guy given how much of a cap space he eats up on a daily basis. Snider recently commented (rolling my eyes here) that there ar eno goaltending issues with the team. To me, that was his way of saying to the media that Bryzgalov is still looked at as a #1, at least by him.

4. Bob is not better. Not by much anyway...... if better at all. Yes, he gets paid exactly what Bryzgalov should be getting paid, but that's a moot point because I just don't see what can be gained by playing Bob the majority of the games. To me, the two golaies are exactly at the same level, but since you are paying for the services of a Cadillac, you might as well use it, instead of driving Ford Escort.

5. I still have a ray of hope that Bryzgalov will get better. It is not very beleivable at this point, but I think he will get at least a tiny bit better. I don't think he would ever be able to play at a level many people - including the Flyers - thought he can play, but at the very least, I think he will play better than the way he is playing right now..... simply because I think he hit the rock bottom and cannot play any worse. Mayeb it was an acclimation period. Maybe he is still learning this defense and how to communicate with them (both language-wise and game-wise)... But I just have hard time beleiving he is that bad. Right now he is getting outplayed by just about every golaie in this league and their repsective grandmothers. I can't see that lasting forever.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Mad Dog

[orange_crush]

I think Snider went senile and needs to step down..

[aziz]

I don't think it was the press or the fans. It was management. They did it. Ownership. Snider.

but why? imo, it was because of the rash of headlines castigating the flyers for their endless goalie drama. snider wanted as strong a counter as he could possibly find, the one that said without any doubt that flyers did the most they could possibly do. the thinnest and most obvious way to do that is to spend the most impressive amount of money possible. whatshisname in buffalo did the same thing for the same reason: make a public statement via cash, with zero insight beyond that.

And IF they did it "because it's what the press and the fans" wanted, then they should be fired. Twice already. A dumber, more short-sighted, smacked-ass STUPID way of running a team you will never find than "the press and the fans wanted it."

agree completely.

[radoran]

but why? imo, it was because of the rash of headlines castigating the flyers for their endless goalie drama. snider wanted as strong a counter as he could possibly find, the one that said without any doubt that flyers did the most they could possibly do. the thinnest and most obvious way to do that is to spend the most impressive amount of money possible. whatshisname in buffalo did the same thing for the same reason: make a public statement via cash, with zero insight beyond that.

I think the Carousel of Crap in goal finally snapped Snider - about 15 years too late. I honestly don't think Snider did this as a PR move. He did it to "fix" what he identified as a "problem" because that light at the end of his tunnel is turning rapidly into a train.

Yes, he got the problem right. The solution was garbage and based entirely on "who's the best UFA goalie available" because the Flyers "don't rebuild."

Pegula in Buffalo's in a different light. The Sabres aren't perrennial contenders and don't claim to "retool, not rebuild" - and he kept Reigier who I consider slightly above Mike Milbury in the ranks of general managers.

[aziz]

1. Propelling Bob into the starting position will basically send a signal to Bryzgalov that he is done here, which is fine, except what if Bob falters too and you have to turn to Bryz in the playoffs? Will he feel interested in playing for the team that basically said, "We don't think much of you afterall"?

true. the question for this season is: who is more likely to require a plan B? doesn't the same statement apply if you basically tell bob, "we don't think much of you afterall," by continuing to go with bryzgalov inspite of his terrible play? it's a bad scene either direction. personally, i think bob is the less likely to require a fallback position.

2. If the team has even a little hope in trading him - which I think is possible, while difficult - they have to drive his trade value up; not down. By sitting on the bench, his trade value cannot get any lower.

i dunno. i mean, you're right, sitting on the bench doesn't help his trade value at all, but then neither does continuing to play .890 sv% hockey.

3. I don't mean trivialize this, but it all comes down to his contract. Only 6 months ago they thought of this guy as a Messiah. He was supposed to be the man. But more importantly, it's going to be extremely high to justify sitting this guy given how much of a cap space he eats up on a daily basis. Snider recently commented (rolling my eyes here) that there ar eno goaltending issues with the team. To me, that was his way of saying to the media that Bryzgalov is still looked at as a #1, at least by him.

those quotes, as provided by rad (thank you), made an almost uncomfortable point of talking about two goalies, taking care to not suggest there is an internal desire to go one way over the other. nothing i saw made me think he was saying bryzgalov is the #1. he said the goalie who was playing better was playing, and didn't say that was temporary. do you not interpret that to mean the guy winning games gets the starts?

4. Bob is not better. Not by much anyway...... if better at all. Yes, he gets paid exactly what Bryzgalov should be getting paid, but that's a moot point because I just don't see what can be gained by playing Bob the majority of the games. To me, the two golaies are exactly at the same level, but since you are paying for the services of a Cadillac, you might as well use it, instead of driving Ford Escort.

well, i disagree here entirely. not something i can prove, i guess. current stats say he is better. the eyeball test, to me, says he is better. he has tools that bryzgalov just doesn't. bob is a great skater, excellent flexibility, seems to keep his head in games after soft goals. he has things to work on. he hangs too far back, his butterfly is very crouched over, and holds his catching glove in an awkward way...but bryzgalov is never going to be a mobile goalie, he is never going to be quick pipe to pipe or from the ice to his skates. he will always have issues maintaining focus when things go wrong, period to period and game to game. the tools bob has don't automatically translate into NHL success, but they make him a decent bet. bryzgalov's shortcomings, on the other hand, do represent a ceiling, imo. he is playing below that ceiling now, granted, but to me there is only so much better he is capable of being.

5. I still have a ray of hope that Bryzgalov will get better. It is not very beleivable at this point, but I think he will get at least a tiny bit better.

well, see above. to each their own opinion, but to me, the flyer's season and playoffs are brighter if we pretend bryzgalov doesn't have an albatross contract for the time being.

[orange_crush]

not necessarily, remember the Tim Thomas saga , he lost his starting job for a year and then rebounded next year and won the cup..

[aziz]

I honestly don't think Snider did this as a PR move. He did it to "fix" what he identified as a "problem"

well, that's kind of even worse. if it was to generate friendly headlines and prime the season ticket sales machine, then mission accomplished. if it was actually a purely hockey decision, well, that's pathetic. even a curory scouting report would have told him bryzgalov was exactly the wrong guy to solve the problem. hell, a subscription to center ice and a couple late nights watching western conf games would have told him that.

if he is a business man who saw a need to generate a parictular kind of press to counter a particular other kind of press, there is justification there. if he is a hockey guy who made what he thought was a good hockey call....good lord.

[terp]

He did it to "fix" what he identified as a "problem" because that light at the end of his tunnel is turning rapidly into a train.

I went away for the holidays and come back to....this. It was surreal to open the paper and see that Bryz had announced the starting goaltender for the Winter Classic.

I was going to comment on the irony here: Snider, in his determination to end the goaltender carousel, creates a worse and more intransigent problem than he started with. As many have said before me, he should have left player personnel issues in the hands of guys who do that kind of thing for a living.

[terp]

bryzgalov's shortcomings, on the other hand, do represent a ceiling, imo. he is playing below that ceiling now, granted, but to me there is only so much better he is capable of being.

Just to embellish: I think you have to put his "Philly" ceiling even lower at this point, not because he's playing badly but because of the way he's playing badly. He's imploded both on and off the ice to the point where he's lost the trust and respect of everyone in the organization, from the water boy to the owner, on every level. He's a joke. We say that about a lot of different players from time to time but this time we're not kidding; it's really the case.

This would be a serious uphill climb for a guy with some sense and an exceedingly strong will, let alone a lonely head case in the toughest sports market in America who has never exhibited any taste for adversity. So while maybe in some hypothetical sense he has the ability return to being as good as he was in Phoenix, he's going to have to do it with a lot more baggage than he used to have. I'm not sure he's up to resurrecting himself in Philly.

[doom88]

While I was disappointed in Bob giving up the soft goal to Rupp, I think he played better than the run of the mill second year goalie. Especially for his very limited experience on North American ice. With that said, he lost. I do certainly believe that Bob made several saves that Bryz simply would not have. Bob again had a few flashy/impressive saves, and tried to keep his team in the game.

On the brightest side, Snider said he had two good goalies. If Bob is on the same level as Bryz in management's mind, I don't think it is a stretch that Homer will repeat his penchant for miracle trades, and get rid of Bryz somehow. Worst case, Bryz gets bought out. It's a long cap hit, but not that high. Bryz was fronted ten million in the first year of his 51m 9yr contract. Smart.

[aziz]

Worst case, Bryz gets bought out. It's a long cap hit, but not that high. Bryz was fronted ten million in the first year of his 51m 9yr contract. Smart.

well, i have good news and i have bad news.

the good news is that a buyout of bryzgalov next summer would only be an $875k cap hit next season, and believe it or not, would actually give the flyers a cap CREDIT of $625k the season after that. weird, right?

the bad news is that it would bring a minimum $1.3mil cap hit for the 14 years after that, averaging around $1.75mil or so, and would reach as high as $5.215mil and $6.125mil in 2018-19 and 2019-20 respectively.

[doom88]

I know, I posted that breakdown for someone a day or two ago. The length of the destruction isn't pretty, but if management wants it badly enough, it isn't an insanely high price.

[aziz]

it does hurt, though. of course, it hurts from today's cap situation's point of view....who knows what the cap looks like in 10 years? $1.8mil against a $120mil cap, who cares?

i dunno. i can't say i hate the idea. which only shows how much i hate having bryzgalov on the team at full salary.

[Bakanekimiwa]

I think Snider went senile and needs to step down..

I'm so glad you're here to provide these thoughtful and informative posts...

[aziz]

just saying.

Edited January 4, 2012 by aziz