Jump to content

Our youth


caluso
 Share

Recommended Posts

I don't think that anyone around here is under any illusion that the Flyers have any pure/top end talent youngsters.  Coots has some very unique skills that will hold him in the league for a long time, and Morin, Haag, and Ghost might one day be serviceable NHL D-men.  But yeah, we've got mostly 'functional' or 'role player' type youth coming up.

 

I guess we didn't suck for long enough back in the JVR draft era to stockpile talent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think that anyone around here is under any illusion that the Flyers have any pure/top end talent youngsters.  Coots has some very unique skills that will hold him in the league for a long time, and Morin, Haag, and Ghost might one day be serviceable NHL D-men.  But yeah, we've got mostly 'functional' or 'role player' type youth coming up.

 

I guess we didn't suck for long enough back in the JVR draft era to stockpile talent. 

I agree, what we have is a collection of third and fourth liners - at best.

 

Couturier has been playing like a matador out there. Ole!  He doesn't seem to want to initiate any contact.

 

And then there's Brayden Schenn........worthless.

Edited by caluso
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what do you guys suggest? A wholesale roster change... again? 

 

I agree with you guys at this point in time. But what do you think of our roster 3,4,5 years from now assuming we let this core develop?

 

Giroux is 26

Schenn is 22

Voracek is 24

Simmonds is 25

Raffl is 24

Akeson is 23

Couturier is 21

Mason is 25

Rinaldo is 23

Laughton is 19 and not even on the squad yet

 

The more this series goes on, there are two things that stand out in my mind:

 

We are outcoached.

We are inexperienced.

 

And I'm not talking about our defense, because I think even Mike Milbury can see that this is an inept group of defensemen we have. That should take care of itself over time with Morin, Hagg, Ghost, Alt, Lauridsen. 4 out of 5 of those guys are very mobile.

 

So, back to coaching and inexperience.

 

Firstly, would you agree that those are issues with this team? 

 

If so, what do you think about the coaching? Is it also inexperience? Berube has less than a season as head coach. I wonder how this team would look with a full offseason and training camp under his direction. Or, could a guy like Vigneault coach this Flyers squad to play like the Rangers (for example)? In other words, can Berube be the *right* coach for this team?

 

On to inexperience, do you guys agree that it has been an issue? If so, then maybe the remedy is just more experience. Losing in the first round (*if* that happens ;) is still good for these guys. 

 

If you don't agree that coaching and/or inexperience have been issues, what would you say it is? Why have the Rangers dominated every damn game in this series? Even our wins felt like the Flyers were hanging on for dear life. As a fan, I didn't exhale at all during those games!

 

Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inexperience leading to getting out executed.

Some fundamentals like passing really need to be reinforced. Both decision making and receiving. This is an artifact of Lavy not coaching.

Berube is fine I think. He looks like a very patient, teacher type.

I keep the core together, and set lines early in training camp. That way, camp can focus on line chemistry and conditioning. Chemistry directly leads to more effective set plays and better executed strategies. I would only change my mind if a players either sucks or happily surprises.

The playoff experience is very valuable, and I hope the guys are watching Marty St Louis. He wants it.

No matter what, don't blow this team up. Take the lumps of a developing team. They can be very good as early as next season.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mostly agree Brel,

 

Not so sure chief is 'outcoached,' seems a little heavy of a word, perhaps.  I'm thinking under-executing the game plan, which is an experience issue.  They are easily frustrated leading to bad passing rash/poor decisions = more frustrations = dumb penalties.  These guys need this experience, hopefully they can push it to the point where they can understand what it takes to compete this time of year.  Experience for most of these guys is a huge factor. 

 

That, and its just a bad matchup.  Sorry to use that excuse, but matchups matter.  We can handle the pens, other teams can't, the rangers have our #, and so it goes.  Yes, you have to beat the best, to be the best, but there are no other teams in the east, not named Bruins, that present a more difficult way past the 1st round for the flyers than the rangers, especially in their barn.  If they were 100% about winning, they should've parked their pride and dropped the penguins game (preventing a mason ubi, as well).  Call it what you want, (sportsmanship, play to win, yada, yada, yada) but that would be better strategy than clinching home ice for the rangers.

 

 

What works against the rangers, is balls 2 the walls forechecking.  if the rangers are allowed to start out of their zone, you're already chasing the game.  Forecheck the hell out of them, and hope mason makes the big saves to bail them out when needed.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re:B Schenn time for him to start "getting it"...he's getting close to that games played number where he should be taking the "next step" . Showing the ability to take over a shift more than once a night, he should be taking over games ... I think he has some good tools , like his game have said the things I'd like to see him do better. I'm ready for him to breakout to where he's a 25/40 player.

I don't think he chief is being outcoached, I think he'd been adapting as we've been going along, game plan A didn't work or couldn't be executed, so he's changed up. He's done okay with lady change, I just think he's and the team is handcuffed by a middling defense corps , that just got slower with the addition of old man Gil.

I don't want yo blow up the forward group, I could blow up the blue line though, at least see what's shaking with some of these guys in "the system" I hardly think they would be much less effective and mobile.

I'm not upset by this series, I think if we take the right lessons from it , it can be used to propel this group forward...tell me in October at 1-6 and disheartening loses to bad hockey teams that this group would be in the playoffs, and I would ask a person to please pass the bong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the last two games show a lot and say a lot. They confirm my suspicion that this team's poor performance in the shootout reflects the kind of people the franchise recruits and trades for..mucker grinders.  I am sick of hearing about "balanced scoring." We need potent scoring. And my sense is that Read is RJ redux. Simmonds may be a great garbage collector but he won't break an opponent's back.  VLC was a bad pickup. I concur with Engstrom ( I think) that Hartnell is just slowing down his line mates. I hope Akeson and Raffl are the stuff we need in the New NHL.  But I don't think we can rely on this D and 37 save performances plus to get us into the elite.  That doesn't mean we blow things up. But candidly, I am not sure about Schenn (x2). And our team speed is really not so great. I hope for all our sake that the young D develop.  Yes, our turnaround from a terrible start is something to be proud of, and I think Berube may be a lot better than I and others gave him credit for. But deep down, I worry that our GM and his scouting still see the world through a Cup-Era prism and don't get it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


If you want to see young players with real talent, grit and hockey sense, tune into the MInn / Colo series.

 

Jason Akeson out performed Landeskog both years while at Kitchner. Just saying Flyers have some youth just most are a few years away..give it time they are heaed in the right direction...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what do you guys suggest? A wholesale roster change... again? 

 

I agree with you guys at this point in time. But what do you think of our roster 3,4,5 years from now assuming we let this core develop?

 

Giroux is 26

Schenn is 22

Voracek is 24

Simmonds is 25

Raffl is 24

Akeson is 23

Couturier is 21

Mason is 25

Rinaldo is 23

Laughton is 19 and not even on the squad yet

 

The more this series goes on, there are two things that stand out in my mind:

 

We are outcoached.

We are inexperienced.

 

And I'm not talking about our defense, because I think even Mike Milbury can see that this is an inept group of defensemen we have. That should take care of itself over time with Morin, Hagg, Ghost, Alt, Lauridsen. 4 out of 5 of those guys are very mobile.

 

So, back to coaching and inexperience.

 

Firstly, would you agree that those are issues with this team? 

 

If so, what do you think about the coaching? Is it also inexperience? Berube has less than a season as head coach. I wonder how this team would look with a full offseason and training camp under his direction. Or, could a guy like Vigneault coach this Flyers squad to play like the Rangers (for example)? In other words, can Berube be the *right* coach for this team?

 

On to inexperience, do you guys agree that it has been an issue? If so, then maybe the remedy is just more experience. Losing in the first round (*if* that happens ;) is still good for these guys. 

 

If you don't agree that coaching and/or inexperience have been issues, what would you say it is? Why have the Rangers dominated every damn game in this series? Even our wins felt like the Flyers were hanging on for dear life. As a fan, I didn't exhale at all during those game

 

Jason Akeson out performed Landeskog both years while at Kitchner. Just saying Flyers have some youth just most are a few years away..give it time they are heaed in the right direction..

That was then, this is now: Landeskog is infinitely better than Akeson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inexperience leading to getting out executed.

Some fundamentals like passing really need to be reinforced. Both decision making and receiving. This is an artifact of Lavy not coaching.

Berube is fine I think. He looks like a very patient, teacher type.

I keep the core together, and set lines early in training camp. That way, camp can focus on line chemistry and conditioning. Chemistry directly leads to more effective set plays and better executed strategies. I would only change my mind if a players either sucks or happily surprises.

The playoff experience is very valuable, and I hope the guys are watching Marty St Louis. He wants it.

No matter what, don't blow this team up. Take the lumps of a developing team. They can be very good as early as next season.

 

 

great post.... I agree with everything  but they also need to add to the puzzle as well.  This defense will not win a tough series and they desperately need someone that can finish.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


That was then, this is now: Landeskog is infinitely better than Akeson

 

Well just saying the kid didn't get a chance to play you'll have to ask the front office why! I've been screaming for him since Downie showed he can't contribute to this team on a nightly basis....Homer is the one that drafts a kid then he comes in the the unskilled Phantoms and leads them in scoring 2 years straight and can't get a sniff till the last game of the season.

 

What is the point of landing a kid give him no talent to work with yet he still excels and yet you won't throw him a bone for a cup of coffee what kid of message does that send to the rest of the kids on the farm.

 

This organization has many many issues...not sure where to start!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


what kid of message does that send to the rest of the kids on the farm.

 

That the 'farm' is not where we get our players?

 

On this team, we have Giroux, Rinaldo, and Gus that have come from the farm. I wouldn't add Akeson to that list yet. It looks like he will stick, but who knows with this organization.

 

The rest we picked up at the livestock auction.

 

Yes, we have a total of THREE players from our farm. And Homer even said in an interview that our best prospects are not in the AHL. They are in Europe, in the major junior system, and in the collegiate system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see that we've already started a post-mortem thread here... but, I'll play along. 

 

I think we have a very solid core of good, talented, players. Their development seems slower than we'd like it... but, yah.. our kids are not the Avs kids. We had hoped they'd really step it up here this year, but that is most def NOT the case in this series thus far. Yet, I'm still reluctant to give up on any of them yet. They're still young enough that there's promise. 

 

So, it seems bleak, but a lot can change next year and I think our main focus, as always, should be to figure out something...anything... for our D. Again... no STILL, our D is the biggest problem with have. There's no easy answer to that either, unfortunately. D men are highly coveted. We could make a big trade, but that will possibly hurt our core Fwd group. We could bring up our prospects and hope for the best, but there really doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer here. 

 

Timo is pretty much done... GrossmanN is hitting the injury bug hard and we still don't really know what we have with Schenn. That's not even addressing the other 3, whom are NOT perfect. So we have hot probs on D and we're gonna need some luck... or *something*. Anyone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some excellent options on wing in this year's UFA crop.

 

Vanek, Moulson, Iginla, Jagr (though *now* I think he's too old), Stastny (he's listed as center, and why wouldn't the Avs resign him?), Gaborik, Jokinen (Olli and Jussi), Cammalleri.

 

Pick up one of these guys and jettison Lecavalier for a bag of pucks and a 2nd rounder, and you've upgraded the team. I don't care which one of those they get, it's an upgrade over Vinny.

 

All they need to do after that it address the defense ;) Piece of cake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, we have a total of THREE players from our farm.

 

yes but that is changing...coming next year..Ghost, Hagg, Cousins...

 

...Stolarz will be there Leier too maybe Laughton starts there and  Goulbourne and you can throw Straka, Ollie and Alt in there (that is 10 prospects right there) so that is huge improvement to the farm.

 

Still will have to decide on Vasiliev and Larsson this off season....so if they sign those two that is two more prospects. It's changing just not as fast as many of us hope for. Heeter too and they will more than likely sign Chubak to a contract.

Edited by OccamsRazor
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Pick up one of these guys and jettison Lecavalier for a bag of pucks and a 2nd rounder, and you've upgraded the team. I don't care which one of those they get, it's an upgrade over Vinny.

 

So you're saying the Flyers would have to give up a 2nd to get rid of Vinny for a bag of pucks? :ph34r:

 


Vanek, Moulson, Iginla, Jagr (though *now* I think he's too old), Stastny (he's listed as center, and why wouldn't the Avs resign him?), Gaborik, Jokinen (Olli and Jussi), Cammalleri.

 

I'm gonna go right out on a limb and say none of these guys are playing for the Flyers next season.

 

Jagr would be a mistake of monumental proportions and an acknowledgement of the previous mistake in not signing him which simultaneously makes it more and less likely to happen.

 

Ah, the life of a Flyer fan! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you're saying the Flyers would have to give up a 2nd to get rid of Vinny for a bag of pucks? :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

I'm gonna go right out on a limb and say none of these guys are playing for the Flyers next season.

 

Jagr would be a mistake of monumental proportions and an acknowledgement of the previous mistake in not signing him which simultaneously makes it more and less likely to happen.

 

Ah, the life of a Flyer fan! :D

 

I agree... none of these guys is realistic. Especially Stasny. Stasny will get paid big bucks somewhere, if not the tight pocket Avs, he'll be testing the market and well paid for sure. IF that were to happen with the Flyers, I can only imagine the terms and the $$$, but I need NO imagination of the amount of b*tching that will be happening on this board. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes but that is changing...coming next year..Ghost, Hagg, Cousins...

 

...Stolarz will be there Leier too maybe Laughton starts there and  Goulbourne and you can throw Straka, Ollie and Alt in there (that is 10 prospects right there) so that is huge improvement to the farm.

 

Still will have to decide on Vasiliev and Larsson this off season....so if they sign those two that is two more prospects. It's changing just not as fast as many of us hope for. Heeter too and they will more than likely sign Chubak to a contract.

 

 

Good point. Our farm may have better prospects, but it still doesn't mean they will make the Flyers squad. Because every year, the Flyers would rather go out and buy at the auction to fill the holes. They don't have the organizational patience to develop their own players. It seems like that's changing, but until it actually does, I'm putting my money on status quo. Remember, they don't need a culture change. 

 

With most of these players on the farm - even the ones coming in - there's a much greater chance that they never make it to the NHL. That's just how it goes with players taken outside of the 1st round. The annals of hockey history are littered with the Leiers, Stolarz, Vasilievs, and Larssons of the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Our farm may have better prospects, but it still doesn't mean they will make the Flyers squad.

 

No no that isn't what i'm saying let them guys grow and when the time is right bring them up...noone should be handed anything it must be earned...i'm not aying noone won't be force into a spot by Homer and his wheeling and dealing but for the most part don't rush them.

 

What i was referring to was Akeson and how he has looked good for two years with no talent around him yet just put up points after points...yet couldn't get a callup earlier in the season.

 

I was asking damn what else must he do to get a cup of coffee with soem talent to see if he can help...how much more with one of the crappiest AHL teams there is does he have to do to get recognition????

 

What message does that send the young kids?? Damn i play my but off and produce yet no reward for the hard work????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see that we've already started a post-mortem thread here... but, I'll play along. 

 

I think we have a very solid core of good, talented, players. Their development seems slower than we'd like it... but, yah.. our kids are not the Avs kids. We had hoped they'd really step it up here this year, but that is most def NOT the case in this series thus far. Yet, I'm still reluctant to give up on any of them yet. They're still young enough that there's promise. 

 

So, it seems bleak, but a lot can change next year and I think our main focus, as always, should be to figure out something...anything... for our D. Again... no STILL, our D is the biggest problem with have. There's no easy answer to that either, unfortunately. D men are highly coveted. We could make a big trade, but that will possibly hurt our core Fwd group. We could bring up our prospects and hope for the best, but there really doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer here. 

 

Timo is pretty much done... GrossmanN is hitting the injury bug hard and we still don't really know what we have with Schenn. That's not even addressing the other 3, whom are NOT perfect. So we have hot probs on D and we're gonna need some luck... or *something*. Anyone?

we don't have enough dynamic offensive players. after voracek and giroux, who do we have?

 

as i posted elsewhere, we have 2/3 of a top line - and that simply won't cut it.

 

i think that the flyers roster needs a dramatic influx of talent - and not just on the backline.

 

unfortunately, Gomer is still in charge, so he will probably trade for the sedin twins. it's not like he has an actual plan: see the VLC signing, which

still gnaws at me! why sign that bum when we were in dire need of help on the back end and our roster was already filled with centermen.

 

sorry, i am venting...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what do you guys suggest? A wholesale roster change... again? 

 

I agree with you guys at this point in time. But what do you think of our roster 3,4,5 years from now assuming we let this core develop?

 

Giroux is 26

Schenn is 22

Voracek is 24

Simmonds is 25

Raffl is 24

Akeson is 23

Couturier is 21

Mason is 25

Rinaldo is 23

Laughton is 19 and not even on the squad yet

 

 

Just let them develop and play as a group for 3-4 years.  Let them learn together.  

B.Schenn is 22!  People are already calling him a bust.   

Is it going to take 50 years for fans to learn?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just let them develop and play as a group for 3-4 years.  Let them learn together.  

B.Schenn is 22!  People are already calling him a bust.   

Is it going to take 50 years for fans to learn?

Speaking for myself regarding B Schenn, I don't think he's a bust, I want more production from him and think that after nearly 200 NHL games we should be seeing a more complete and consistent player...and we are not. I like him and see his potential we should start to "realize" that potential any minute now.

Production wise he's ahead of many from his draft class/age group, but he is not looking like the "best player not in the NHL" labeled guy we traded our team's best hockey player for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...