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So the Flyers "simply" aren't talented enough to win?


canoli
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http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20140428_Rangers_are_simply_more_talented.html#j2XWwgZMhMw40XGd.99

 

The title is "Rangers are simply more talented" by Mike Sielski. Don't know who he is but...whatever.

 

IMHO it's not about "lack of talent" it's about piss-poor execution. Not even 1 good game in 5 by the Flyers. A month ago they were beating (or skating even with) the best teams in the league; now they're pushed around by the mighty (yeahright) Rangers.

 

Quote from the article:

 

 

"Down in the third period, you saw the desperation," Flyers defenseman Andrew MacDonald said. "We need to see more of that."

MacDonald's right, and that's the most foreboding aspect now for the Flyers. They have to sustain over 60 minutes a pitch that a more formidable team can reserve for a game's most anxious moments.

 

Seems to me 99 times out of 100 the more desperate team wins in the NHL...and in the POs it's 100 out of 100. Sielski is implying there are these hugely talented teams who can reserve their desperation, a 110% effort for the close games, whereas the lowly Flyers have to go full-tilt for 60 or else they don't have a chance.

 

Obviously the talent is spread unevenly throughout the league. But I don't buy this "Flyers aren't talented enough to compete" idea.

 

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Canoli, I am usually right there w/ your train of thought but I think Sielski's article is about the most honest thing I have read in a while.   I thought it was refreshing to read something that was, IMO, dead accurate.  

 

I think you are right about execution but I also think the Rangers are better in just about every facet of the game:  Offense, defense, Goaltending, 5 on 5 play, forechecking, etc...

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Actually, I think Sielski is right on. This series is no fluke. They are NOT NEARLY quick enough defensively, and have too many forwards that disappear for long stretches. Lecavalier has fit right in to that mold. They finally have a goalie worth a damn, and they need to build from Mason on out. Defense retooling time.  The Rangers are simply more talented, and in addition, they have a defense first system that relentlessly frustrates the hell out of the Flyers.

Edited by FD19372
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the Rangers are certainly playing like the better team (in net i think it's even). But if the Flyers are so under-talented how do we explain the stretch of games out West, the wins against the Champs, taking Boston to a SO, beating the Blues, the Pens back-to-back...etc. - all those games that got them to the POs?

 

"peaked too early" - So...the team has one lousy peak in them, that's it? (okay by definition a peak is ... a peak! lol). But seriously, they couldn't get back into a winning mode when the POs started? The PO Flyers look more like the October Loser Flyers than the tight, focused March Flyers. I just don't get it.

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the Rangers are certainly playing like the better team (in net i think it's even). But if the Flyers are so under-talented how do we explain the stretch of games out West, the wins against the Champs, taking Boston to a SO, beating the Blues, the Pens back-to-back...etc. - all those games that got them to the POs?

 

and yet how do we forget about all of those games they lost to medicore opponents?

 

This Team was dreadful at the beginning of the year but they were not exactly lighting it up at the end of the season either.  They are an average Team... average Teams play above the mean for stretches but also fail to get points when they should.  

 

I think the Rangers are a slightly above average Team... they will not be getting past the likes of the Habs and Boston.

Edited by murraycraven
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the Rangers are certainly playing like the better team (in net i think it's even). But if the Flyers are so under-talented how do we explain the stretch of games out West, the wins against the Champs, taking Boston to a SO, beating the Blues, the Pens back-to-back...etc. - all those games that got them to the POs?

 

"peaked too early" - So...the team has one lousy peak in them, that's it? (okay by definition a peak is ... a peak! lol). But seriously, they couldn't get back into a winning mode when the POs started? The PO Flyers look more like the October Loser Flyers than the tight, focused March Flyers. I just don't get it.

 

I don't think they are "under" talented. I think they are "under" experienced.

 

The Flyers used a lot of desperation and effort to make the playoffs. Once it looked as if the position was secured, they began to coast. They were 1-3-1 against playoff competition down the stretch (STL, CLS, BOS, TAM, PIT). And they were 0-2-1- against playoff teams at the end of March (LAK, NYR, BOS)

 

That's 1-5-2 against playoff competition over the last three weeks of the season. But they did beat the tar out of Buffalo and Florida before losing in a shootout to the Canes. They got a hard fought point from the Bruins at home and then got pasted 5-2 in Boston. In a non-shootout, playoff scenario, do you see them taking either game from the Bruins?

 

Again, this team needs to grow. Still. This is part of growing.

 

And, yes, they need some help on the blue line and some more consistent scoring from the top two lines.

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They are an average Team... average Teams play above the mean for stretches but also fail to get points when they should.

 

I guess that's the answer MC. They just don't have it in them to sustain a high level of play, of focus and execution.

 

The roster has guys in key roles who aren't "there" yet in their game, guys like BSchenn and Couturier, Simmonds, even Voracek. They all do good work at times but either it's not enough or it's too inconsistent to depend on.

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I guess that's the answer MC. They just don't have it in them to sustain a high level of play, of focus and execution.

 

The roster has guys in key roles who aren't "there" yet in their game, guys like BSchenn and Couturier, Simmonds, even Voracek. They all do good work at times but either it's not enough or it's too inconsistent to depend on.

 

This is it exactly... These guys are just emerging and are effectively, as a team with this captain, making their first strides into the playoffs.

 

You have to believe they will continue to emerge and that this experience will be helpful to them, win or lose Game 6.

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This is it exactly... These guys are just emerging and are effectively, as a team with this captain, making their first strides into the playoffs.

 

You have to believe they will continue to emerge and that this experience will be helpful to them, win or lose Game 6.

 

 

This^^  Well said...

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The Flyers used a lot of desperation and effort to make the playoffs. Once it looked as if the position was secured, they began to coast.

 

 

They sure did. But every team does a bit of that, it was expected. But what we're seeing now was hard to predict I think, this complete FAIL to summon their best energy, their "A" game. I don't mean they should've "flipped the switch" but they should be able to play a focused, disciplined game. They're not even coming close. The poor puck management, a stationary PP - no traffic in front of Lundqvist, or else everybody in front but the shooter, guaranteeing a blocked shot, probably by a Flyer...They look like the October Flyers; the only thing working is the PK, just as it was the only thing then.

 

Again, this team needs to grow. Still. This is part of growing.

 

And, yes, they need some help on the blue line and some more consistent scoring from the top two lines.

 

 

Yep - I agree, and that's the good news. The bad news of course is that the Flyers rarely remain patient over the summer. Homer's done well with the young forwards so far...this summer I get the feeling the patience will run out. I hope not. As "disappointed" as I am in Brayden Schenn's game (not really, but somewhat) it's obvious he may become a solid power forward and a game-breaker. I just worry if we go out in 6 the Flyers will go overboard on the roster changes.

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@radoran

 

ah I posted before I read your response.

 

So let me ask you then - are you surprised by how bad the Flyers have been, how lopsided the games look? Obviously I am but I get the feeling maybe you're not?

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The Rangers were the one team I feared most (Boston aside) in the first round because the Flyers just don't match up well with that team.  They play the style of hockey that has killed Flyers teams since the 90's when the trap became the norm.  We are obviously no longer living in the clutch and grab era, thank God, but this team still struggles to figure out how to beat very defensive minded teams.  I don't think the Rangers are this far superior team as far as overall talent goes, but they play a system that the Flyers have so much trouble beating.  It essance, it does make them the better team!  The Flyers have shown that they are capable of beating the Rangers, but it is rarely a situation where they take control of the game and play 60 solid minutes of hockey with no fear of blowing it.  When they are leading, it is always the feeling of one false move and the whole game turns in the Rags favor.

 

I think we all have known this year year that this team is still not there yet.  We hoped that maybe they would catch fire at the right time and make an improbable run, but facing the Rags has certainly made their jobs a lot harder.  I do believe they are talented enough to win a playoff series this year, but never felt good that they had to do it against the Rags! 

 

It's not over yet and I can actually see them pulling out a close game tomorrow night, but ultimately falling at MSG in G7.  A few lucky breaks/bounces and maybe I'm wrong and they win the series in 7.  In any case, I like where this team is heading and I firmly beleive that they need to stick with the young guys they currently have on the roster.  We have seen players like Simmonds and Voracek developing right before our eyes.  Not time to give up on any of the kids just yet.  Just need to find the right complimentary pieces to build around the core.

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IMHO it's not about "lack of talent" it's about piss-poor execution.

 

That is it and it seems the Rangers are in their heads.

 

Compounded by the fact it seems everyone is waiting on G to save them instead of playing their games to the best of their abilities...lack of focus and determination to beat the Rangers to the loose puck, easily pushed off at times when they get it or panic like Coby and just pass it away like a grenade....clam puck handling out there.

 

This is not a confident bunch. But it's not just one thing it's the culmination of several.

 

Goaltending not strong this past one getting out coached out hustled, bad reffing and they ain't getting the bounces and not capitalizing on the chance they do get. They better bring it next game or it's............FORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

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@radoran

 

ah I posted before I read your response.

 

So let me ask you then - are you surprised by how bad the Flyers have been, how lopsided the games look? Obviously I am but I get the feeling maybe you're not?

 

I am disappointed, but not "surprised."

 

We are seeing a team that has had high hopes for several years and endured losses in the Conference Final and a loss to the Cup champions last year. They have a coach who had also been through the playoff wars.

 

The Rangers are a much better "team" than the Flyers, even if some of the individual pieces may not be as adept.

 

They came in with a game plan to shut Giroux down and make other players beat them. The other players simply haven't taken that opportunity and run with it.

 

VLC remains an egregious, costly mistake in just about every aspect of the game. His play is substandard and his "leadership" isn't apparent. He's forcing guys to play out of position (only because I would like to actually see what Schenn has as the "second line center" he was traded to be) and isn't effective when put into positions of responsibility (no, I don't think second unit PP and sixth guy on empty net plays is the "responsibility" I refer to).

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Again, this team needs to grow. Still. This is part of growing.

 

Yes so true...they are in a valley right now and they may go thru it and resurface this year...or they are on the bottom and will remain there till next year.

 

They have to go thru battle in order to be termed "battle tested"...they are young and that is part of the growing pains we all including myself will just have to deal with..

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(no, I don't think second unit PP and sixth guy on empty net plays is the "responsibility" I refer to).

 

LOL!

 


They came in with a game plan to shut Giroux down and make other players beat them. The other players simply haven't taken that opportunity and run with it.

 

Indeed. And this is where my "disappointment" in BSchenn lies. This was the perfect opportunity for him to step up and make things happen. His PP unit has been terrible and 5 on 5 he's not delivering. He plays along the perimeter for long stretches and when he gets an opportunity to create offense...he doesn't make it happen. A few times...I'm not saying he's been a complete "dud" or any worse than just about everyone else. Obviously playing the perimeter is the result of good Team D by the Rangers. I just expected more from him these POs that's all. He's got speed, size and - when he turns it on - energy to drive the net. It just sucks that he got shut down too, and imho it's partly his own fault.

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RE: B Schenn,

will he learn from this ? that's the question for me, I said somewhere else, seems to me like he's about to the point where he should be "getting it" and so far he's not.  He's got great tools , as mentioned by @canoli and myself, the kid needs to start putting it all together though.  I have seen the flashes of what could be and its nice, i'd just like to see that level of play , where he takes over the ice on his shifts more consistently.

 

They are hardworking boys, the Schenns, and I think adult versions 28 and 29 year old in their prime players would be nice to have on our team.  I wonder if we'll see it ?

 

I wonder if they get past "having potential" ?

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@canoli

 

I really think it's a combination of several things.  First off, I disagree that the talent level of the Rangers is so superior to that of the Flyers'.  Defense - sure.  The Rangers' defense is very sound.  But in net and especialy offensively, there is just no way I can agree the Flyers are lacking talent.  They have more 20-goal scorers than any otehr team.  You don't get that by accident.

 

I also don't think the Flyers are lacking effort.  Maybe in Game 1 a little, but I think their energy level is just fine.

 

So with that in mind - and assuming this is true - this series should have been evenly played.  Instead, we are seing the Flyers looking like they are not even in the same league with the Rangers. If this wasn't for Emery and Mason, this is supposed to be a sweep. My explanation to this is that the Rangers are much better coached than the Flyers.  I really do believe that.  If think their coach Alain Vigneault is this team's MVP. And our "brilliant man" doesn't look so brilliant.  People were mentining the FLyers' poor puck control...  I agree - it is poor.  But I think it's because of how the Rangers force them out of their comfort zone... constantly.... on just about every possession, how they bottle things up, how they cycle teh puck and don't give the Flyers much room to create quality chances.

 

And did I already say Lecavalier is useless?  OK, in case I didn't - he is useless :ph34r:

Edited by Mad Dog
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IMHO it's not about "lack of talent" it's about piss-poor execution.

 

Agreed. Its a jeckly / Hyde thing. The last 10 games of the seaon were an indicator. 

 

We all have to be honest in that most of us realized this was not a Stanley Cup team. 

 

The dots are easy to follow and hopefully management will connect a couple. Next year we will be better. I like Berube and thing he is the right coach for this team at point and time (though I would love Trotz). No need to change the horse. Just change some mules (VLC comes to mind). 

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They have more 20-goal scorers than any otehr team. You don't get that by accident.

 

I have and will take issue with this idea that simply having that number of 20-goal scorers is evidence of scoring depth.

 

Here they are: 20-20-20-22-23-28-29

 

To me that's five guys who score once every four games and two guys that score once every three. That's a mile wide and an inch deep where I sit.

 

They need 3-4 consistent 25-30 goal guys and the surprise 20-goalers. They need a second line that can be relied upon to score goals and provide a threat that gives a team more of something to worry about than shutting down Giroux.

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I have and will take issue with this idea that simply having that number of 20-goal scorers is evidence of scoring depth.

 

Here they are: 20-20-20-22-23-28-29

 

To me that's five guys who score once every four games and two guys that score once every three. That's a mile wide and an inch deep where I sit.

 

They need 3-4 consistent 25-30 goal guys and the surprise 20-goalers. They need a second line that can be relied upon to score goals and provide a threat that gives a team more of something to worry about than shutting down Giroux.

 

I am not sure what you are trying to say, to be honest.  The point is this team has enough scoring depth.  They have enough players who can pass and who can score.  I don't care whether these players score every 4 games, every 3 games, or every 1.5 games.  Scoring is scoring.  Giroux, Voracek, Hartnell, Simmods, B Schenn, Reid, and yes, even VLC know how to score. And Couturier and Raffle also know how to score.  Sure, they are not sharp shooters, but how many pure snipers did the Devils of the 2000's have in their lineup?  How many snipers did the Florida have when they went to the Finals in late 1990's? 

 

Look who is scoring for the Rangers.  Dominic Moore.  Benoit Pouliot.  Are you going to tell me these are better natural scoreres than anybody the Flyers have on their roster?

 

And Lundqvist is not even being a difference maker in this series.  This team is not grossly inferior to the Rangers when it comes to offensive talent. That's the point.  The Flyers are not trailing in this series and are looking like they are light years behind the Rangers because they don't have players who can score. It's rather because they could not figure out how to beat the puck cycling and how to control the puck better against this team.  If people point to the lack of experience, OK, fine, I guess I can buy that as well...

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I am not sure what you are trying to say, to be honest.  The point is this team has enough scoring depth.  They have enough players who can pass and who can score.  I don't care whether these players score every 4 games, every 3 games, or every 1.5 games.  Scoring is scoring.  Giroux, Voracek, Hartnell, Simmods, B Schenn, Reid, and yes, even VLC know how to score. And Couturier and Raffle also know how to score.  Sure, they are not sharp shooters, but how many pure snipers did the Devils of the 2000's have in their lineup?  How many snipers did the Florida have when they went to the Finals in late 1990's? 

 

Look who is scoring for the Rangers.  Dominic Moore.  Benoit Pouliot.  Are you going to tell me these are better natural scoreres than anybody the Flyers have on their roster?

 

And Lundqvist is not even being a difference maker in this series.  This team is not grossly inferior to the Rangers when it comes to offensive talent. That's the point.  The Flyers are not trailing in this series and are looking like they are light years behind the Rangers because they don't have players who can score. It's rather because they could not figure out how to beat the puck cycling and how to control the puck better against this team.  If people point to the lack of experience, OK, fine, I guess I can buy that as well...

 

What I am saying is that there are guys who "score" and then there are "scorers."

 

For example, Matt Read "scores" the odd goal here and there, he is not a "goal scorer". VLC at this point in his career doesn't make his own space or create his own plays. He "scores" on the second or third rebound as the sixth guy in a scrum in empty net time. Brayden Schenn is scaring no one as a "goal scorer" despite his 20 goals.

 

The Flyers aren't scoring because they don't have the horses at this point. They are a one line team that relies on Giroux to set the tone and light the path, and the Rangers have a strategy that is simply beating them.

 

I could see Schenn becoming a "goal scorer" or Simmonds, Voracek, etc.

 

They're just not there yet.

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No Raffl does not know how to score.

 

and PP goals are not the same as scoring goals at even-strength

 

To speak to your point

 

Simmonds 15 of 29 on the PP

Giroux 7 of 28

Hartnell 9 of 20

VLC 8 of 20

Voracek 8 of 23

Read 4 shorties, 3 empty netters of 20

 

Boston?

Bergeron 7 of 30

Iginla 4 of 30

Marchand 1 of 25 (5 shorties - still one of 20)

Lucic 3 of 24

Smith 6 of 20

Krecji 3 of 19

 

Chicago?

Sharp 10 of 34

Kane 10 of 29

Toews 5 of 28

Hossa 4 of 30

Shaw 5 of 20

Sadd 3 of 19

 

The Flyers simply have no equivalent of a Hossa, Iginla, Lucic, Toews. They don't score as much and they are much more reliant on the PP.

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