So the Flyers "simply" aren't talented enough to win?

[doom88]

So you're saying they all suck at scoring?

[926]

Why's everybody writing an obit on a franchise-holding comeback team while the wheel's still in spin? 

 

This team has excelled from the crouch, the comeback, so let's get back to evens tomorrow night.  Still have not seen their best hockey, imo, for a consecutive three periods, I think it's in there.  Maybe it's messy, but this Flyers team can dictate play against top competition, gotta do it.

[pensuck]

If We Have A Team Of Muckers And Grinders Why Don't We Take The Body On Every Shift? This Team Has No Identity. Voracek Has Been Our Best Player Bar none This Series. We've Got Quite A Few 20 Goal Scorers This Year But Come Playoff Time A Few Have Disappeared. Quite A Few. Where Is Hartnell, read, Schenn?

Im Just A Little Disappointed. Go Phils & Birds...

[Howie58]

If We Have A Team Of Muckers And Grinders Why Don't We Take The Body On Every Shift? This Team Has No Identity. Voracek Has Been Our Best Player Bar none This Series. We've Got Quite A Few 20 Goal Scorers This Year But Come Playoff Time A Few Have Disappeared. Quite A Few. Where Is Hartnell, read, Schenn?

Im Just A Little Disappointed. Go Phils & Birds...

Pens:

 

The muckers are getting outmucked by a good D. And come playoff time they don't have the skill to outperform the D. I would rather have three 30 goal scorers on lines that can break the back of an opponent's D than the crew we have, which has to contain the opponent's breakout and get a superhuman goaltending performance to win. Those were our Cup years 40+ years ago. I am not convinced that will work today.

 

Peace,

 

Howie

[fanaticV3.0]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20140428_Rangers_are_simply_more_talented.html#j2XWwgZMhMw40XGd.99

 

The title is "Rangers are simply more talented" by Mike Sielski. Don't know who he is but...whatever.

 

IMHO it's not about "lack of talent" it's about piss-poor execution. Not even 1 good game in 5 by the Flyers. A month ago they were beating (or skating even with) the best teams in the league; now they're pushed around by the mighty (yeahright) Rangers.

 

Quote from the article:

 

 

Seems to me 99 times out of 100 the more desperate team wins in the NHL...and in the POs it's 100 out of 100. Sielski is implying there are these hugely talented teams who can reserve their desperation, a 110% effort for the close games, whereas the lowly Flyers have to go full-tilt for 60 or else they don't have a chance.

 

Obviously the talent is spread unevenly throughout the league. But I don't buy this "Flyers aren't talented enough to compete" idea.

 

Yeah, the Rangers are better. So? The Flyers can play better than they have been. I think it's safe to say they really haven't played their best hockey yet. I will also say I think they are capable of beating the Rangers. But overall, the Rangers are a better team. This bugs you?

[FD19372]

Greetings:

 

I concur with the article.  Notice it isn't authored by Carchidi or Seravalli, who might get burned for this level of candor. Sorry folks, but I do see the Rangers as a more talented team. And I am deeply concerned with the DNA of this team:  Does the GM owner and his staff continue to put physical strength and toughness ahead of speed and skill?  I've said it before and I will say it again--our poor performance in the shootout may give an indicator of what this team is made of--good to above-average mucker-grinders.  If their "balance" was so good, why aren't some folks scoring to make up for Giroux who is being hacked and checked constantly?  The D is obviously in need of a remake. Goaltending--I think we will still have questions coming out of the season. Mason may be an upgrade. But beyond him, then what?

 

Best,

 

Howie

 

Does the owner and his staff continue to put physical strength and toughness ahead of speed and skill? Yes indeed. No "culture" change needed, however.

[fanaticV3.0]

I am disappointed, but not "surprised."

 

We are seeing a team that has had high hopes for several years and endured losses in the Conference Final and a loss to the Cup champions last year. They have a coach who had also been through the playoff wars.

 

The Rangers are a much better "team" than the Flyers, even if some of the individual pieces may not be as adept.

 

They came in with a game plan to shut Giroux down and make other players beat them. The other players simply haven't taken that opportunity and run with it.

 

VLC remains an egregious, costly mistake in just about every aspect of the game. His play is substandard and his "leadership" isn't apparent. He's forcing guys to play out of position (only because I would like to actually see what Schenn has as the "second line center" he was traded to be) and isn't effective when put into positions of responsibility (no, I don't think second unit PP and sixth guy on empty net plays is the "responsibility" I refer to).

 

That's on the coaches. Vinny doesn't force anyone to play anywhere. He didn't complain one bit when he was demoted (for about 5 minutes) to 4th line center.

 

The almost constant line juggling has "gotten old" as the kids put it. Do other teams do it as much as we do? Is that a thing in hockey now? It's so frequent that it baffles my mind how they think anyone can develop any chemistry.

[Mad Dog]

That's on the coaches. Vinny doesn't force anyone to play anywhere. He didn't complain one bit when he was demoted (for about 5 minutes) to 4th line center.

 

The almost constant line juggling has "gotten old" as the kids put it. Do other teams do it as much as we do? Is that a thing in hockey now? It's so frequent that it baffles my mind how they think anyone can develop any chemistry.

 

Well, the line juggling I kind of understand. VLC is not performing up to the expectations, so the coach is trying different things. It kills any continuity and brings havoc into the lineup, but at least I understand that part. The coach's job is to find combinations that breed the best results.

 

The problem I have with the whole VLC situation is the very fact that he is even here in the first place. There was zero rationale or justification to buy out one over-the-hill, washed up, high-price center only to bring in the other, who may be just a tiny bit more skilled, while failing to address the most glaring issue - the defense.  I don’t blame Vinny – he is what he is. Someone suggested in earlier threads that he is sabotaging the performance.  I find this totally ludicrous.  Why would he do that?  What is there for him to gain by dogging it?  He simply doesn’t have much left or perhaps doesn’t fit into how Berube wants his team to play.  Whatever the case may be, it’s not working… and the depressing reality is, he is here for the next 4 years.

 

The management of this team has to answer for these gross miscalculations and mismanagement of gigantic proportions. If anybody is sabotaging the team it's this General Manager.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Mad Dog

[radoran]

That's on the coaches. Vinny doesn't force anyone to play anywhere. He didn't complain one bit when he was demoted (for about 5 minutes) to 4th line center.

 

The almost constant line juggling has "gotten old" as the kids put it. Do other teams do it as much as we do? Is that a thing in hockey now? It's so frequent that it baffles my mind how they think anyone can develop any chemistry.

 

Then to rephrase: "His presence is influencing decisions to play players out of position"

 

He's making $4.25M. He's got "reputation". There's a reason Berube keeps trying to "fix" the scoring problem by moving him back up to the second line. They keep hoping that he will magically emerge - which is actually a better bet than, say, putting an untested kid straight out of juniors into the playoff fray.

 

But it still, as MadDog points out, puts into stark relief that the entire VLC experiment has been an egregious mistake.

[Podein25]

The almost constant line juggling has "gotten old" as the kids put it. Do other teams do it as much as we do? Is that a thing in hockey now? It's so frequent that it baffles my mind how they think anyone can develop any chemistry.

 

 

Yes. Look no further than Chicago with the way Toews, Kane, Hossa and Sharp are constantly moved around, often many times within games. I've often had the same reaction as you on the whole chemistry thing, but nowadays players are all so coached to play a certain way that it almost doesn't matter. 

Edited April 29, 2014 by Podein25

[aziz]

Does the owner and his staff continue to put physical strength and toughness ahead of speed and skill? Yes indeed. No "culture" change needed, however.

?

Giroux, Voracek, timonen, b schenn, read, raffl, Lecavalier, akeson, couturier, MacDonald, streit... Physical strength and toughness over speed and skill? You have hall, L schenn, Grossmann, Coburn being bigger guys, but not exactly bruisers. Hartnell? Simmonds? Downie? i get the complaint with Gill, Rinaldo, Rosehill.... But three out of 21 doesn't really strike me as an overarching philosophy.

[fanaticV3.0]

Well, the line juggling I kind of understand. VLC is not performing up to the expectations, so the coach is trying different things. It kills any continuity and brings havoc into the lineup, but at least I understand that part. The coach's job is to find combinations that breed the best results.

 

The problem I have with the whole VLC situation is the very fact that he is even here in the first place. There was zero rationale or justification to buy out one over-the-hill, washed up, costly center only to bring in the other, who may be just a tiny bit more skilled, while failing to address the most glaring issue - the defense.  I don’t blame Vinny – he is what he is. Someone suggested in earlier threads that he is sabotaging the performance.  I find this totally ludicrous.  Why would he do that?  What is there for him to gain by dogging it?  He simply doesn’t have much left or perhaps doesn’t fit into how Berube wants his team to play.  Whatever the case may be, it’s not working… and the depressing reality is, he is here for the next 4 years.

 

The management of this team has to answer for these gross miscalculations and mismanagement of gigantic proportions. If anybody is subotaging the team it's this General Manager.

 

VLC is hardly the biggest or only problem on the team right now. He has exactly one less point than Giroux, who I freely admit has been taking a beating, but also hasn't done much himself. He has exactly the same amount of points both Hartnell and Simmonds and as many goals as them combined. Schenn and Couturier (who is a nice player, but Jesus he's borderline useless offensively) haven't done much either. The only forward who looks like he's actually trying (most of the time) is Voracek. There's a lot of guys who aren't chipping in.

 

I know why juggling the lines happens, but it's not working, and is excessive. It's not "something different" when you do it all the time.

Edited April 29, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[radoran]

Yes. Look no further than Chicago with the way Toews, Kane, Hossa and Sharp are constantly moved around, often many times within games. I've often had the same reaction as you on the whole chemistry thing, but nowadays players are all so coached to play a certain way that it almost doesn't matter. 

 

It certainly doesn't matter if you have a Toews, Kane, Hossa and Sharp in your lineup...

[Podein25]

@radoran

 

Agreed. 

[fanaticV3.0]

Then to rephrase: "His presence is influencing decisions to play players out of position"

 

He's making $4.25M. He's got "reputation". There's a reason Berube keeps trying to "fix" the scoring problem by moving him back up to the second line. They keep hoping that he will magically emerge - which is actually a better bet than, say, putting an untested kid straight out of juniors into the playoff fray.

 

But it still, as MadDog points out, puts into stark relief that the entire VLC experiment has been an egregious mistake.

 

1. Schenn hasn't exactly blown the league away whether he's played at wing or center. If he was so damn good he'd claim the position and force the coaches to play him there.

 

2. Both Schenn and Vinny have played out of position. I don't know the exact numbers of who played what position and how often, but Vinny has played wing a lot, if not the majority of the time:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2012562-why-vincent-lecavaliers-move-to-4th-line-was-good-for-the-philadelphia-flyers

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/skate-update-flyers-move-lecavalier-4th-line

 

3. Vinny was having success on the 4th line and Berube chose to move him from that spot.

 

This isn't a Vinny problem. This is a Berube, Schenn and Vinny problem. Plenty of blame to go around here.

[fanaticV3.0]

Yes. Look no further than Chicago with the way Toews, Kane, Hossa and Sharp are constantly moved around, often many times within games. I've often had the same reaction as you on the whole chemistry thing, but nowadays players are all so coached to play a certain way that it almost doesn't matter. 

 

Chicago is also Chicago and we are, well let's just say we're not them.

Edited April 29, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[radoran]

This isn't a Vinny problem. This is a Berube, Schenn and Vinny problem. Plenty of blame to go around here.

 

Sure, absolutely. But the reason it is a problem at all is because VLC is on the roster.

 

3. Vinny was having success on the 4th line and Berube chose to move him from that spot.

 

VLC didn't do much "on the fourth line" after he was moved there. He had a goal in his first game there, on the power play. Added a fourth line goal and a 6th-man goal against Boston in the next game. Then had four points in eight games - all against Buffalo (a PPA and a goal with Voarcek assisting) and Florida (two fourth line points).

 

Seven points, not even half from the "fourth line," five against non-playoff teams.

 

Completely agree about Schenn, but sometimes you need to take the time to see what you have in a player and allow them to develop into a role. A guy at 22 is one of those places where that approach is commonly taken.

 

A guy at 34? Not so much.

[Mad Dog]

VLC is hardly the biggest or only problem on the team right now.

 

Absolutely. But the problem was created when Holmgren went out and signed him the past off-season. VLC did not create this problem; the Flyers did. Even an amateur, entry-level hockey person, who may have at least some rudimentary understanding of how to construct rosters, should have been able to envision that when you have a glut of players playing at the same position, it could mean nothing but headaches and that someone... SOMEONE would be asked to play out of his natural position. And when that person who you are bringing in is more than just a redundant player, but an expensive, over-the-hill player, all one can do is scratch his head in disbelief. 

[Howie58]

Then to rephrase: "His presence is influencing decisions to play players out of position"

 

He's making $4.25M. He's got "reputation". There's a reason Berube keeps trying to "fix" the scoring problem by moving him back up to the second line. They keep hoping that he will magically emerge - which is actually a better bet than, say, putting an untested kid straight out of juniors into the playoff fray.

 

But it still, as MadDog points out, puts into stark relief that the entire VLC experiment has been an egregious mistake.

Today's post in the Inquirer says the line shifting is semi-desperation. But tweaking doesn't equal talent...I guess.

 

Howie

[CoachX]

the Rangers are certainly playing like the better team (in net i think it's even). But if the Flyers are so under-talented how do we explain the stretch of games out West, the wins against the Champs, taking Boston to a SO, beating the Blues, the Pens back-to-back...etc. - all those games that got them to the POs?

 

"peaked too early" - So...the team has one lousy peak in them, that's it? (okay by definition a peak is ... a peak! lol). But seriously, they couldn't get back into a winning mode when the POs started? The PO Flyers look more like the October Loser Flyers than the tight, focused March Flyers. I just don't get it.

I really think its about culture within the organization. This is actually pretty common in Philadelphia sports. Specifically speaking, haven't we seen this now for quite some time? A team that plays well then goes into a dismal funk? It seems like no matter who the coach is, or what conglomeration of players they put together, the results remain. That tells me the issue is higher up the chain

[Vanflyer]

The Rangers were the one team I feared most (Boston aside)

 

Nice post. Agree with everything. 

[doom88]

?

Giroux, Voracek, timonen, b schenn, read, raffl, Lecavalier, akeson, couturier, MacDonald, streit... Physical strength and toughness over speed and skill? You have hall, L schenn, Grossmann, Coburn being bigger guys, but not exactly bruisers. Hartnell? Simmonds? Downie? i get the complaint with Gill, Rinaldo, Rosehill.... But three out of 21 doesn't really strike me as an overarching philosophy.

 

Because it isn't.

[AndyS]

My take is different.  I think it's more a matter of match-ups.

 

The Flyers match up well against the Pens (go figure) or the Canadiens, but not the Rangers or Bruins, or even Tampa.

 

I still think we can win this series, but the power play needs to get going.

 

Giroux needs to find a way to take over this game.

 

And Mason MUST be better than he was in game #5.

[OccamsRazor]

And Mason MUST be better than he was in game #5.

 

I think you meant game #6 and he was man that first period if wasn't from him they would have been buried out the gate!!!! Outstanding game by him....keep it going...i like the move of Hartnell with Schenn and Simmer. That Akeson Read Cooter was buzzing to Cooter turned the puck over a few times but he got that worked out.

 

Raffl, G and Jake were good too, sure like for Raffl to shoot more that one time he came blazing down untouched and just went backwards right before getting to Henrik and then turned the puck over in their zone...i was like WTF was that??? 

[Adamflyers]

 

And Mason MUST be better than he was in game #5.

 

You got your wish Andy!  Mason was on tonight!  Just got back from the game and I'm pumped!  I predicted the Rags in 6 and I'm glad to be wrong, although I still don't feel great about game 7 at MSG.  Still, this team has proven time and again that they are never dead and I pray that they prove me wrong again tomorrow!  No matter what happens tomorrow, I feel so good about the direction this team is headed, so long as Homer doesn't mess it up by trading away half to core for Weber in the offseason!  They have a goalie and they have a core to build around.

 

F THE RANGERS AND LET'S GO FLYERS!!!!!!!!!!!