So the Flyers "simply" aren't talented enough to win?

[caluso]

I guess that's the answer MC. They just don't have it in them to sustain a high level of play, of focus and execution.

 

The roster has guys in key roles who aren't "there" yet in their game, guys like BSchenn and Couturier, Simmonds, even Voracek. They all do good work at times but either it's not enough or it's too inconsistent to depend on.

i really appreciate your posts but Voracek is a world class player. he's definitely "there." b schenn stinks, he will never get "there."

 

sadly,  i do think that the flyers are not very talented but it's a team sport and a great team with less talent can beat a star studded collection of players who dont play cohesively. unfortunately, the flyers fall victim - far too frequently - to not playing as "one," to not playing with passion, desperation.

 

and, that, is why they have so much trouble with consistency.

 

don't get me wrong, i still contend that the flyers will have trouble with truly talented teams who play together, who play with a purpose. as i said in a past post, having 2/3 of a top line won't cut it.

 

i hope i am wrong, but...

[canoli]

i really appreciate your posts but Voracek is a world class player. he's definitely "there." b schenn stinks, he will never get "there."

 

 

thanks - I appreciate your posts too C -

 

re: BSchenn. "stinks" is kinda harsh isn't it? After all he is just 22...a little young to be so certain, no?

 

re: Jake...he's a 15/30, 20/20 guy till this year when he actually cracked 60 (23/39). I like your enthusiasm but ...let's see a few 60+ pt seasons (at least) before we build temples in his honor.

[brelic]

i really appreciate your posts but Voracek is a world class player. he's definitely "there." b schenn stinks, he will never get "there."

 

Schenn got 41 points this year (20g, 21a) as a 22 year old. And you can see the improvement in his game with each passing year.

 

Voracek as a 22 year old had 49 points (18g, 31a). And we've seen growth in his game as well, plus I think he has a lot more room to grow. He's got the tools to be a 30goal, 70-80 point kinda guy. On top of that, he's a big game player if we look at his playoff stats versus regular season. He's got that extra gear.

 

Giroux had 47 points as a 22 year old.

 

Jeff Carter had 37 points as a 22 year old.

 

Mike Richards had 75 points as a 22 year old, his breakout year. He had  just 32 the year before.

 

It sounds like you believe Brayden Schenn is a finished product at 22 years old. Is that the case?

[caluso]

What progression has Schenn made? He is given second line minutes yet produces like a third or fourth line player. His positive influence on games is so infrequent. When was the last time you said, "Wow, Schenn is all over the ice?" Or something to that effect.

I am tired of the argument that he is 22 and will only get better. Really? IMHO he has no hockey sense and has a very low ceiling.

Look at the Colo / Manny series if you want to see what real young talent is supposed to look like.

[Howie58]

My "spin" is that the Flyers cannot "overtalent" the Rags; They can win by playing "Flyers Hockey" of tight checking and superlative goaltending. The question is when that will work against the elite teams?  

 

Tonight will be a contrast of talent and "build philosophy."  I predicted Rags in 6 so Iam like Adam above--pleased to be wrong. 

 

Howie

[fanaticV3.0]

Sure, absolutely. But the reason it is a problem at all is because VLC is on the roster.

 

 

 

 

VLC didn't do much "on the fourth line" after he was moved there. He had a goal in his first game there, on the power play. Added a fourth line goal and a 6th-man goal against Boston in the next game. Then had four points in eight games - all against Buffalo (a PPA and a goal with Voarcek assisting) and Florida (two fourth line points).

 

Seven points, not even half from the "fourth line," five against non-playoff teams.

 

Completely agree about Schenn, but sometimes you need to take the time to see what you have in a player and allow them to develop into a role. A guy at 22 is one of those places where that approach is commonly taken.

 

A guy at 34? Not so much.

 

Who cares what teams they came against or if they were on the PP? The demotion clearly lit a fire under his ass. 4th line minutes and PP duties was working for him. Berube never should have moved him from that spot.

 

I can agree with you about Schenn needing more time, but like moving Vinny from the 4th back to the 2nd, moving Schenn from W to C, to W again is on the coach. 

 

Both of these situations are. I like Berube, but Vinny didn't force anyone to do anything and neither did his sheer presence. Both Vinny and Schenn have struggled at times during this season, but in the whole "Schenn can't be our 2nd line center" argument, that's primarily on Berube.

[fanaticV3.0]

Absolutely. But the problem was created when Holmgren went out and signed him the past off-season. VLC did not create this problem; the Flyers did. Even an amateur, entry-level hockey person, who may have at least some rudimentary understanding of how to construct rosters, should have been able to envision that when you have a glut of players playing at the same position, it could mean nothing but headaches and that someone... SOMEONE would be asked to play out of his natural position. And when that person who you are bringing in is more than just a redundant player, but an expensive, over-the-hill player, all one can do is scratch his head in disbelief. 

 

I'm past "it was a bad signing" Besides being very obvious, there's no point in talking about it over-and-over again. The focus now is what are you gonna do now that they're in that situation?

 

Personally, I thought they had a decent answer to that question when they moved Vinny to 4th line and special teams minutes, but that lasted all of 2 games. Berube should have never moved him from the 4th imo. It got him going and would have allowed Schenn to play at center for longer than 5 minutes.

[mojo1917]

What progression has Schenn made?

 

2011/12 -18 pts  54 gp

2012/13 - 26 pts  47 gp

2013/14 - 41pts  82 gp

 

he has improved his production each year, this is his first "full" season in the league.

 

when he plays center he is much more productive and effective, he has played center for maybe half the games this year and last.  He's good enough to play second line minutes out of position.

 

I'm not ready to call him a bust, last night (game 6 NYR) he was quite effective I thought his line was good.

 

I understand and share some of your frustration but when I step back and think about the player and look at his stats, he's getting better .   I have said he's about to the point where guys "break out" , i too am ready for this to happen.    He could still be a very good player in the league, he has the tools and mindset / work ethic.  

[radoran]

Who cares what teams they came against or if they were on the PP? The demotion clearly lit a fire under his ass. 4th line minutes and PP duties was working for him. Berube never should have moved him from that spot.

 

I can agree with you about Schenn needing more time, but like moving Vinny from the 4th back to the 2nd, moving Schenn from W to C, to W again is on the coach. 

 

Both of these situations are. I like Berube, but Vinny didn't force anyone to do anything and neither did his sheer presence. Both Vinny and Schenn have struggled at times during this season, but in the whole "Schenn can't be our 2nd line center" argument, that's primarily on Berube.

 

Who cares if it was on the power play? You're point seemed to be that he had "re-energized" his game on the fourth line. Well, his "re-energization" occurred primarily AWAY from the fourth line. That's the point. And being "effective" against Buffalo and Florida doesn't mean a hill of beans in a playoff series against the Rangers, Penguins, Bruins or the Western Conference Champion.

 

If Berube DIDN'T HAVE VLC then he wouldn't have made the decision to move him to the 4th or back to the 2nd or to wing or to be the popcorn guy in the press box. In that respect his sheer presence is the point.

 

Personally, I thought they had a decent answer to that question when they moved Vinny to 4th line and special teams minutes, but that lasted all of 2 games. Berube should have never moved him from the 4th imo. It got him going and would have allowed Schenn to play at center for longer than 5 minutes.

 

I completely agree with this.

[OccamsRazor]

After all he is just 22...a little young to be so certain, no?

 

And just completed his first full year. But i wouldn't be shocked after the season he is traded...they can't find common ground with the bridge deal and Flyers are deep at forward...so depending on the rest of the playoff performance it doesn't look good for him....but hey they're still in the playoffs and there will be plenty of time fro off season chat moves!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO FLYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[brelic]

He is given second line minutes yet produces like a third or fourth line player.

 

He averaged 15:45 of TOI this year.

 

When Jake was 22, it was 16:17.

 

When Giroux was 22, it was 16:37

 

When Carter was 22, it was 18:00.

 

Mike Richards averaged 21:37 as a 22 year old.

 

And all those guys, outside of Richards, produced at roughly the same pace as Schenn with more TOI.

 

Schenn isn't treated any differently than the other 22 year olds we've had in our system who are highly-touted prospects. 

 

I'm just not sure how you reach the conclusion that Schenn is a finished product at 22 years old. Am I understanding you correctly? 

[TedZep]

When was the last time you said, "Wow, Schenn is all over the ice?" Or something to that effect.

 

Sometimes it even looks like Schenn is in two places at once...

[aziz]

Look at the Colo / Manny series if you want to see what real young talent is supposed to look like.

 

who?  i haven't actually watched any of the games, but by the stat sheet, only mckinnon and o'reilly are really outpacing schenn dramatically and of comparable age or younger.  stastny is 6 years older, landeskog has one more point in 7 extra ATOI.  coyle and granlund have one more point, with 4 minutes extra ATOI.  are the two colorado standouts the measuring stick here?

[radoran]

Patrick Sharp was 23 when he was traded to Chicago having shown much less than The Good Schenn has shown to this point.

 

Schenn just potted 20 goals in his first full season in the league. He should be given the shot to be the second line center he was projected to be.

 

Any move to change that rightnow is simply* short-sighted.

 

 

* simply ™ Sielski

[fanaticV3.0]

i really appreciate your posts but Voracek is a world class player. he's definitely "there." b schenn stinks, he will never get "there."

 

sadly,  i do think that the flyers are not very talented but it's a team sport and a great team with less talent can beat a star studded collection of players who dont play cohesively. unfortunately, the flyers fall victim - far too frequently - to not playing as "one," to not playing with passion, desperation.

 

and, that, is why they have so much trouble with consistency.

 

don't get me wrong, i still contend that the flyers will have trouble with truly talented teams who play together, who play with a purpose. as i said in a past post, having 2/3 of a top line won't cut it.

 

i hope i am wrong, but...

 

Ok, first of all, world class? Are you high? And I like Jake, but world class?!

 

Schenn just finished his first full season in the league. He scored 20 goals, which is something Jake couldn't say in his first, second, third, fourth....I think you get the point. Jake just finished his 6th season in the league and had a breakout year this year. Tell me how Schenn "will never get there" please. I'm curious.

 

Jake has 4 points in this year's playoffs. Schenn has...wait, 3? So that's only 1 point less than Jake the world class player? Well ****...

[CoachX]

Aren't we being a little nit pickey ? the top point getter in the playoffs has 10. It's a little early to be making significant statistical comparisons. However, world class player Cindy Crosby has 6. That's only two more than Jake and three more than Schenn

[fanaticV3.0]

Who cares if it was on the power play? You're point seemed to be that he had "re-energized" his game on the fourth line. Well, his "re-energization" occurred primarily AWAY from the fourth line. That's the point. And being "effective" against Buffalo and Florida doesn't mean a hill of beans in a playoff series against the Rangers, Penguins, Bruins or the Western Conference Champion.

 

If Berube DIDN'T HAVE VLC then he wouldn't have made the decision to move him to the 4th or back to the 2nd or to wing or to be the popcorn guy in the press box. In that respect his sheer presence is the point.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree with this.

 

He was getting special teams play before the demotion, but was struggling. After the demotion he didn't coincidentally put up better numbers. It pissed him off, he produced, and it allowed Schenn to play at center, both of which went away when Berube ended the project after a couple of games. There was no reason to do that at all. One guy actually woke up and the other was getting to chance to play his natural position. I don't think Schenn is a center, but that's another discussion.

[radoran]

He was getting special teams play before the demotion, but was struggling. After the demotion he didn't coincidentally put up better numbers. It pissed him off, he produced, and it allowed Schenn to play at center, both of which went away when Berube ended the project after a couple of games. There was no reason to do that at all. One guy actually woke up and the other was getting to chance to play his natural position. I don't think Schenn is a center, but that's another discussion.

 

He was moved to the fourth line on March 28

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/28/lecavalier-demoted-to-fourth-line-berube-says-he-expected-more-from-veteran/

 

He got moved back up to the second on April 22

http://www.nj.com/flyers/index.ssf/2014/04/flyers_vincent_lecavalier_promoted_from_fourth_line_to_second_for_game_3_happy_hell_get_more_ice_tim.html

 

That's 10 regular season games and then two playoff games.

 

I absolutely concur that the "demotion" paid dividends for him and the team.

 

I'm not saying 100% that Schenn is "the answer" on the second line. Far from it. But he was projected as a #1 coming out of Junior and was traded for to fill the second line role in Philly.

 

I'd just like to see what they have there. Not at all overly enamored with the player at this point. When he was moved to the 2 line position, he had two goals over the span - both against Buffalo.

[Howie58]

Greetings:

The second period showed our lack of speed. We were getting run over. THE VLC deal is part of a bigger DNA problem. We love em big and expensive.

The season is a victory given the lousy start. We will see if this is a new era or another headfake by 11/22/14 or thereabouts. The D needs speed. A few Akesons might make a big difference.

Best,

Howie

[caluso]

2011/12 -18 pts 54 gp

2012/13 - 26 pts 47 gp

2013/14 - 41pts 82 gp

he has improved his production each year, this is his first "full" season in the league.

when he plays center he is much more productive and effective, he has played center for maybe half the games this year and last. He's good enough to play second line minutes out of position.

I'm not ready to call him a bust, last night (game 6 NYR) he was quite effective I thought his line was good.

I understand and share some of your frustration but when I step back and think about the player and look at his stats, he's getting better . I have said he's about to the point where guys "break out" , i too am ready for this to happen. He could still be a very good player in the league, he has the tools and mindset / work ethic.

[caluso]

You realize that on a ppg basis Schenn has made No progression at all.

Edited May 1, 2014 by caluso

[mojo1917]

@caluso

Patrick Sharp .

Justin Williams

[radoran]

You realize that on a ppg basis Schenn has made No progression at all.

 

2011/12 -18 pts 54 gp - .333 ppg

2012/13 - 26 pts 47 gp - .55 ppg

2013/14 - 41pts 82 gp - .5 ppg

 

Averaging a point every other game at 21 and 22 isn't exactly chopped liver.

 

There's a reason entry level deals are for three and there are still years to go as an RFA.

 

Flyers will re-sign Schenn to a bridge deal in the $3M range and see what they have in two years.

 

Oh, wait, it's Homer. Eight years, $45M, NMC.

[fanaticV3.0]

He was moved to the fourth line on March 28

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/28/lecavalier-demoted-to-fourth-line-berube-says-he-expected-more-from-veteran/

 

He got moved back up to the second on April 22

http://www.nj.com/flyers/index.ssf/2014/04/flyers_vincent_lecavalier_promoted_from_fourth_line_to_second_for_game_3_happy_hell_get_more_ice_tim.html

 

That's 10 regular season games and then two playoff games.

 

I absolutely concur that the "demotion" paid dividends for him and the team.

 

I'm not saying 100% that Schenn is "the answer" on the second line. Far from it. But he was projected as a #1 coming out of Junior and was traded for to fill the second line role in Philly.

 

I'd just like to see what they have there. Not at all overly enamored with the player at this point. When he was moved to the 2 line position, he had two goals over the span - both against Buffalo.

 

I'm almost positive that game 3 of the POs was not the first time he played on the 2nd line since the demotion. Besides the fact that I'm fairly certain I saw it, the article you linked to says "he pretty much stayed there until now" when talking about his move to the 2nd line center for game 3. Hell, it says he played there some in game 2. I don't think it was 12 straight games of him on the 4th line. We can't even go 12 minutes of guys playing the same position, let alone games.

 

You know what surprised me in that article? It said Vinny spent most of the season playing on Schenn's wing. I would have put money on it that Vinny centered the 2nd line more than Schenn and makes me think Schenn isn't a center even more than I already did.

[caluso]

Averaging a point every other game at 21 and 22 isn't exactly chopped liver.

There's a reason entry level deals are for three and there are still years to go as an RFA.

Flyers will re-sign Schenn to a bridge deal in the $3M range and see what they have in two years.

Oh, wait, it's Homer. Eight years, $45M, NMC.