Whither Lecavalier?

[aziz]

but in the end it forced young players out of position - sorry, no disrepect meant aziz but I just dont buy it... 

 

only with the realization that VLC can't play a wing.  or if we assume that schenn needs to be a center (personally, i still think his skill set is that of a winger, not a center).

 

How did Vinny help anyone's development this year?

 

​he didn't.  but looking at it last summer, we didn't know that.  like i said, i really liked the acquisition at the time from a team development point of view, just hated the term.  turned out that VLC was worthless, but i didn't know that a year ago.  the season before that deal, he was a 32 point in 39 game player.  i liked the add.

 

your point about the terrible term being almost signature holmgren is totally fair, though.  we'll see how it plays.

[radoran]

but there is nothing there that would specifically preclude that.  i mean, it'd be dumb for a team to buy out a player and then agree to pay him more, but....  like i said, the player gets 2/3rds of his remaining contract right away, so it isn't like he's been stuck high and dry.

 

i guess what i don't understand is how signing a new contract with tampa is any different than signing a contract with philly.  VLC was paid a significant percentage of his remaining deal, and then can start billing again for the years he was just paid for.  i don't see why the "who is doing the paying" part makes any difference one way or the other.

 

to me, in a buyout situation, the player is almost always the winner.  yes, he only gets 2/3rds of what was promised, but he can get paid a second time for the years that were previously covered.  his potential for making money almost always goes up, and sometimes significantly.  VLC got the $32mil from the buyout, plus the new $18mil contract, plus has two years once this contract is up he could conceivably make even more.  $50mil, total, with the possible extra (he'll be pretty old at that point, though, so probably not).  he was due a total of $48mil under his previous contract.  VLC wins.  so who cares what team is paying him the extra?

 

I could see it working for "traditional" buyouts rather than the "free" compliance kind - but you are opening circumvention floodgates from where I sit.

 

Tampa's problem was the contract length they offered VLC. It was ridiculous and stupid. Of all the long-term mega-deals that have been signed, how many have worked out for the team signing it?

 

Not many. Crosby's? Maybe?

 

The answer isn't to give them a special "out" - the answer is that they learn from their mistakes. Which they did, to an extent, by forcing the players to force them to have a maximum length and maximum variance between top and low paying years.

 

The devil is in the details and you might be able to work out a reasonable means of making this happen. But it's purely hypothetical.

 

The "who is paying" comes down to the whole reason we've already lost a season and a half of hockey in this century.

[canoli]

if we assume that schenn needs to be a center (personally, i still think his skill set is that of a winger, not a center).

 

With every passing week it appears that Center is not Brayden Schenn's forté in the NHL.

[murraycraven]

@ Aziz,

 

I guess I just find it hard to believe that any Team in the NHL (in their right mind) would do a handshake deal for one year.   I would think the league would completely shun this idea as it could be viewed as tampering or cirumvention of the rules.   With that being said I hope you are dead-on, 100% accurate!!!  There is no spot for VLC on this Team and that contract gets uglier by the minute...

Edited May 2, 2014 by murraycraven

[Bakanekimiwa]

because they thought they'd be getting a strong second line player who had won a cup to help with the development and transition of the team for a year.  they were dead wrong, but when the deal was made, my only complaint was the length, i thought it a really good idea for the very short term.  it totally wasn't, but hindsight and all.

 

edit:  obviously, this is only a hunch/guess on my part.  i'm 50-50 that it is what is going on.  we'll see in a couple months.

 

this is NOT the most ridiculous theory you've had... which says a lot. however, If the bolts are still on the hook for $32.67 million on Vinny's buyout and now you think they will want to take on another $16.5m(in real money, not cap hit) for a player that is obviously entering the twilight years a tad early!? AND, presumably, they will have to give the Flyers *something* in return!? well, now we've entered the bizarro world. Florida could be a likely destination, however, Tampa is HIGHLY unlikely.  

 

On the other side of the deal, I just can't see the Flyers letting go on an investment of that term for just some picks... unless they're high ones. I'm really *trying* to find the sense in this logic... but, seriously... I just can not see it. Help? anyone?  

[aziz]

I would think the league would completely shun this idea as it could be viewed as tampering or cirumvention of the rules. 

 

definitely.  and, if tampa's management changes their minds (and VLC was bad enough that could very well be), philly is left holding a pretty stinky bag.

 

i can dream, though, right?

[aziz]

@Bakanekimiwa

 

here's the factor that i don't know much about.  what is tampa's fan base like?  VLC was a huge huge deal there for a long time.  does having him return for 3 seasons put people in the seats?  do those fans remember him fondly enough that a marketing campaign could be built around his return?  the real money could start to even out if his name/face can drive attendance.  i really don't know, though.

 

as for the flyers, at this point i think holmgren would take anything at all, berube would take even less.

[murraycraven]

this is NOT the most ridiculous theory you've had... which says a lot. however, If the bolts are still on the hook for $32.67 million on Vinny's buyout and now you think they will want to take on another $16.5m(in real money, not cap hit) for a player that is obviously entering the twilight years a tad early!? AND, presumably, they will have to give the Flyers *something* in return!? well, now we've entered the bizarro world. Florida could be a likely destination, however, Tampa is HIGHLY unlikely.  

 

On the other side of the deal, I just can't see the Flyers letting go on an investment of that term for just some picks... unless they're high ones. I'm really *trying* to find the sense in this logic... but, seriously... I just can not see it. Help? anyone?  

 

 

So in essense the Bolts would be paying VLC nearly 50M....   I am with you on this one Bak.  It makes no sense to me.  

[radoran]

@Bakanekimiwa

 

here's the factor that i don't know much about.  what is tampa's fan base like?  VLC was a huge huge deal there for a long time.  does having him return for 3 seasons put people in the seats?  do those fans remember him fondly enough that a marketing campaign could be built around his return?  the real money could start to even out if his name/face can drive attendance.  i really don't know, though.

 

as for the flyers, at this point i think holmgren would take anything at all, berube would take even less.

 

Tampa was eighth in the league in attendance this season, the year after they bought out VLC.

 

They were eighth in the league last year, too. 13th the year before that.

 

"Winning" puts butts in seats a lot more than "faces" - especially 34-year-old faces with four more years left on the deal.

 

Not to mention that if the Flyers have no "fit" for VLC, Tampa has less of one. And Steven Stamkos is the undisputed new face of that franchise.

[Bakanekimiwa]

So in essense the Bolts would be paying VLC nearly 50M....   I am with you on this one Bak.  It makes no sense to me.  

 

 

@Bakanekimiwa

 

here's the factor that i don't know much about.  what is tampa's fan base like?  VLC was a huge huge deal there for a long time.  does having him return for 3 seasons put people in the seats?  do those fans remember him fondly enough that a marketing campaign could be built around his return?  the real money could start to even out if his name/face can drive attendance.  i really don't know, though.

 

as for the flyers, at this point i think holmgren would take anything at all, berube would take even less.

 

 

I think it's an interesting idea.... in theory. Of course, one would wonder about such a move as soon as they bough him out. There are some players who's identity is one team. He's one of those types of players, but with the new economics, I firmly believe that is a bye gone era. 

 

The only sense to this theory is an emotional one for the Tampa fans. I'm sure they'd love to have him back to finish his career there, but beyond that, the economics seem to make this move as close to impossible as it gets for me. 

[murraycraven]

The only sense to this theory is an emotional one for the Tampa fans. I'm sure they'd love to have him back to finish his career there, but beyond that, the economics seem to make this move as close to impossible as it gets for me.

 

they should resign Callahan and laugh at the contract Homer put in front of VLC...

[radoran]

And, even Tim Panaccio of the Comcast Stenographers Network notes the VLC problem

 

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/flyers-have-big-questions-address-offseason

 

3. Vinny Lecavalier
The Flyers’ marquee free-agent acquisition last summer quickly became the club’s biggest nightly lineup obstacle when it became apparent Lecavalier did not fit into Berube's top three center spots.

Lecavalier is too prominent a player to be reduced for a fourth-line center role and his $4.5 million salary is dead weight on the Flyers' salary cap because they are overpaying for a guy who averaged less than 11 minutes a game. The fact Lecavalier has four more years on his contract makes his signing even worse. It’s not fair to him or the club, and his salary is near impossible to move.

Lecavalier played poorly much of the second half and is believed to have been suffering from a back injury. Regardless, his situation needs to be addressed.

Bottom line: The Flyers made a splash for a player who did not fit without removing one of their younger centers and now they are paying a harsh price.

[Bakanekimiwa]

they should resign Callahan and laugh at the contract Homer put in front of VLC...

 

they should sign Callahan. 

[Bakanekimiwa]

And, even Tim Panaccio of the Comcast Stenographers Network notes the VLC problem

 

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/flyers-have-big-questions-address-offseason

 

 

well... we all know Panach is a hack who gets all his material from this board. very sad, but, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 

[brelic]

i guess what i don't understand is how signing a new contract with tampa is any different than signing a contract with philly.

 

The theory is the Philadelphias and New Yorks of the league can afford to just write off a $40M mistake. It's absolutely NO different than flushing $40M down the toilet or setting it on fire. Think about that for a minute. Think of how many people are dying for a few bucks, and these teams can just pay tens of millions so someone will NOT play for them.

 

I doubt that Edmonton, Ottawa, Phoenix, New Jersey, etc can afford to make similar moves. 

 

So that's why that rule exists: to prevent the rich teams from just tossing money into the fire to re-sign the same guy cheaper.

[Bakanekimiwa]

The theory is the Philadelphias and New Yorks of the league can afford to just write off a $40M mistake. It's absolutely NO different than flushing $40M down the toilet or setting it on fire. Think about that for a minute. Think of how many people are dying for a few bucks, and these teams can just pay tens of millions so someone will NOT play for them.

 

I doubt that Edmonton, Ottawa, Phoenix, New Jersey, etc can afford to make similar moves. 

 

So that's why that rule exists: to prevent the rich teams from just tossing money into the fire to re-sign the same guy cheaper.

 

Jersey can.. Lou just gets the league to change the rules for him. 

[aziz]

So in essense the Bolts would be paying VLC nearly 50M....   I am with you on this one Bak.  It makes no sense to me

 

no.  they WERE going to pay $50mil on the old contract.  with the buyout and a year of the new deal having been paid by the flyers, they'd pay around, what, $43mil?  the whole operation saves them $7mil.  if they really wanted VLC around, that's not bad..

[murraycraven]

Flyers' salary cap because they are overpaying for a guy who averaged less than 11 minutes a game

 

they also had a hanshake deal to keep his minutes under 12 mintues per game so he had legs when he got back to Tampa

[murraycraven]

no.  they WERE going to pay $50mil on the old contract.  with the buyout and a year of the new deal having been paid by the flyers, they'd pay around, what, $43mil?  the whole operation saves them $7mil.  if they really wanted VLC around, that's not bad..

 

 

got it:  43-50 Million either way you cut it which is insane for VLC at this point of his career.

[aziz]

@murraycraven

 

true.  though it is only $13.5mil from here.  which...is still insane.  

[Bakanekimiwa]

got it:  43-50 Million either way you cut it which is insane for VLC at this point of his career.

 

the fact that Tampa would need to give us something back too... remember, it would still be a TRADE. Money might be slightly better compared to the pre-buyout deal, and a more manageable cap hit, but they have to give the Flyer's *something*. I just can't see it being anything less than some good picks. I mean... since we're in Bizarro land, let's just trade them VLC for Vlad Namestnikov straight up. 

[OccamsRazor]

he's still a big part of the family thing down there, though.  there was a silent agreement in place to have VLC sign somewhere else, for a more reasonable salary and a more reasonable cap hit...he'd play out the season with this other team, and then there'd be a deal of some sort to send him back to tampa once it was legal to do so.  which is to say, July 1.  it won't be for much, 2nd/3rd round pick kind of thing.

 

I like this scenario...would love to move him like someone stated i don't hate him i would just like to see some youngers players in the lineup than him...but if he was to back to Tampa what a relief it would be.