Mason confirms concussion

[Samifan]

Admitting what we knew all along.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/10865217/steve-mason-philadelphia-flyers-confirms-concussion-kept-start-new-york-rangers-series

Edited May 2, 2014 by Samifan

[DaGreatGazoo]

It's very rare, I gloat....BUT..from the time he ended up missing practice cause he didn't feel right; I said he had a concussion.  I  caught unholy hell from some people.

 

 

Take that.  

 

Then again, it wasn't really that hard given this team's history of handling/treating/reporting concussions.

Edited May 2, 2014 by DaGreatGazoo

[radoran]

He also said he was experiencing headaches until the night before Game 4, according to the Philadelphia Daily News, meaning his relief appearance in Game 3 came while he was still experiencing concussion-like symptoms.

 

How on Earth does his 'baseline' allow him to be the backup - not to mention playing - under those circumstances?

 

This team has apparently learned nothing from their experience with concussion. Nothing.

 

Yeah, I'm looking at you Assistant Coach Ian LaPerriere.

[Samifan]

How on Earth does his 'baseline' allow him to be the backup - not to mention playing - under those circumstances?

This team has apparently learned nothing from their experience with concussion. Nothing.

Yeah, I'm looking at you Assistant Coach Ian LaPerriere.

It's because of McCrossin's basline test, LOL

• What color are our sweaters?
• How many fingers am I holding up?

now get on out there.............................................................. :unsure:

Edited May 2, 2014 by Samifan

[idahophilly]

Admitting what we knew all along.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/10865217/steve-mason-philadelphia-flyers-confirms-concussion-kept-start-new-york-rangers-series

What the hell? He had a concussion???? I never saw that coming!

[Bakanekimiwa]

Yeah.. apparently he accidentally spilled the beans on the Flyers by mentioning his headaches not subsiding until just before gm 4. oops. 

[canoli]

Well we don't know when he told the med staff his headaches were gone. All we know is he told the media he was still having them the night before G4.

 

Concussions symptoms come and go while you're healing. It's quite possible he felt completely fine right up until "the night before G4." Yes there's supposed to be a baseline of consecutive symptom-free hours - how many I don't know. I suspect the baseline is always fluid and it only gets looser once PO time rolls around. It shouldn't be that way but it is. Players want to play and coaches need their best players on the ice. The pressure to shrug off a headache - even during a concussion recovery - is immense in the POs.

[radoran]

Well we don't know when he told the med staff his headaches were gone. All we know is he told the media he was still having them the night before G4.

Concussions symptoms come and go while you're healing. It's quite possible he felt completely fine right up until "the night before G4." Yes there's supposed to be a baseline of consecutive symptom-free hours - how many I don't know. I suspect the baseline is always fluid and it only gets looser once PO time rolls around. It shouldn't be that way but it is. Players want to play and coaches need their best players on the ice. The pressure to shrug off a headache - even during a concussion recovery - is immense in the POs.

They don't have to rely on the player. That's why they have the baseline tests. They aren't "loose" - they are the same test.

And they exist so that the League and Teams are insulated from the lawsuits that are right now threatening the NFL.

But, hey, they almost made it to the second round so all's good, right?

Who cares if the players risk long term disability and/or early death? They almost made it to the second round! The second round!!!!

[flyerrod]

Not every headache you get is a concussion or concussion symptom either. I am not saying they weren't concussion related but it is possible.

[radoran]

Not every headache you get is a concussion or concussion symptom either. I am not saying they weren't concussion related but it is possible.

 

Rod, this is direct from the story

 

NEW YORK -- Shortly after his team was eliminated from the playoffs, Philadelphia Flyers goaltender Steve Mason admitted that it was indeed a concussion that caused him to miss the beginning of the series.

He also said he was experiencing headaches until the night before Game 4, according to the Philadelphia Daily News, meaning his relief appearance in Game 3 came while he was still experiencing concussion-like symptoms.

 

Guy recovering from concussion has a headache. What are the chances that it's not at all related to the concussion?

 

Would you accept that line from the doctor if it was your son/daughter/wife?

 

'Cause I wouldn't.

[flyerrod]

Guy recovering from concussion has a headache. What are the chances that it's not at all related to the concussion?

 

I am playing devil's advocate here. Ever had a Sinus headache or a Migraine? It scrambles your brain every bit as much as a concussion would, I am going by his level of play as for why I have trouble believing he was suffering symptoms while on the ice. If that is how you play with a concussion, he should have smacked every other player on the team in the head with his stick to get them on the same page........

[radoran]

I am playing devil's advocate here. Ever had a Sinus headache or a Migraine? It scrambles your brain every bit as much as a concussion would, I am going by his level of play as for why I have trouble believing he was suffering symptoms while on the ice. If that is how you play with a concussion, he should have smacked every other player on the team in the head with his stick to get them on the same page........

 

I've had bad headaches before, yes.

 

There are guys who can go out and be real monsters on the ice despite concussion symptoms.

 

Keith Primeau, for example.

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-09-20/nhl-concussions-head-games-documentary-keith-primeau-flyers-red-wings-whalers

 

I was driving home from dropping my kids off at school, and I have a headache today. I was thinking back to that point in time, almost 12 months into my last concussion, I was still trying to get back. When I reflect on that moment in time—I’m now seven years removed, and I still suffer post-concussion symptoms—how in the world did I ever think I was going to come back and play? How did I ever hold on to that hope that, the next day, I was going to wake up and feel fine? The next days just kept coming and going. I almost felt sorry for myself at that point, because I wanted to keep trying. I wasn’t going to stop until somebody told me.

As far as the impact, as far as the injury itself, it’s hard to say (whether the last concussion was the worst). It probably wasn’t, but at that point, it didn’t take much. It certainly was the most difficult one to overcome. They continued to get more difficult to recover from, and the symptoms became more and more exacerbated, and it just got worse with each one.

I think that probably the best way to describe it is that you learn to deal with it, you learn to live with it. At this point, it’s so far that I don’t really remember anything different. I remember days that I would wake up and didn’t have headaches, but now you just learn to deal with it.

There would be those who say that “we can fix you” and “we can heal you,” but at the end of the day, I’ve damaged my brain, and you can’t fix it, you can’t heal it. There’s nothing that says you can. It depends what day you catch me on, whether I feel there’s hope for full recovery or not. I’m in a much better place than I was three years ago, four years ago, five years ago, six years ago, but there’s no getting around the fact that I damaged my brain repeatedly, and there’s a price to be paid.

 

I had four documented (concussions), and the last one was the one that forced me to retire, but I continue to go back to my second documented—in Pittsburgh, in the playoffs, I was taken off the ice in a stretcher, and spent the night in the hospital. A few nights later, I was back on the ice in the Eastern Conference Finals. I knew I wasn’t right, and I still tried to play through it.

 

This is why you have medical professionals who have the JOB of looking after people who can't - or won't - look after themselves.

 

The Flyers' own assistant coach's career was ended in exactly the same way.

[canoli]

I am playing devil's advocate here. Ever had a Sinus headache or a Migraine? It scrambles your brain every bit as much as a concussion would, I am going by his level of play as for why I have trouble believing he was suffering symptoms while on the ice. If that is how you play with a concussion, he should have smacked every other player on the team in the head with his stick to get them on the same page........

 

 

Quite right. Plus the article says nothing about the severity of the headaches or their frequency. And the " while he was experiencing..." is the writer's conclusion; he's not reporting a medical conclusion he's editorializing. I'm not knocking him for it, that's part of his job. But let's not confuse the two.

 

They don't have to rely on the player. That's why they have the baseline tests. They aren't "loose" - they are the same test.

 

Do you know what the baseline test is, or how long a player needs to be symptom-free before he's cleared to play? I don't. If it's public knowledge I've never seen it.

 

No 2 concussions are alike and the timetable coming back from them is always different. I've never heard "he's been symptom-free for __x-number of hours" all I ever read is variations of "he's been cleared to play" or "he hasn't been cleared to play."

[radoran]

Quite right. Plus the article says nothing about the severity of the headaches or their frequency. And the " while he was experiencing..." is the writer's conclusion; he's not reporting a medical conclusion he's editorializing. I'm not knocking him for it, that's part of his job. But let's not confuse the two.

 

 

 

 

Do you know what the baseline test is, or how long a player needs to be symptom-free before he's cleared to play? I don't. If it's public knowledge I've never seen it.

 

No 2 concussions are alike and the timetable coming back from them is always different. I've never heard "he's been symptom-free for __x-number of hours" all I ever read is variations of "he's been cleared to play" or "he hasn't been cleared to play."

 

Here's the NHL article on their new Concussion Protocol:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=556289

 

Here are the actual documents:

http://sportsdocuments.com/nhl-protocol-for-concussion-evaluation-and-management/

 

Here are the Google results for "concussion baseline":

https://www.google.com/search?q=concussion+baseline&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

 

The CDC recommendations for "return to play"

http://www.cdc.gov/concussion/headsup/return_to_play.html

 

And then there's this:

http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/n-h-l-grapples-with-applying-its-own-concussion-protocols/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

Another aspect of the episode, however, was troubling. Immediately afterward, Landeskog skated off and needed assistance to get to the dressing room. He remained out of the game and was examined by a doctor, in accordance with N.H.L. protocols on head injuries, until late in the second period. He passed the examination and returned to play part of that period and all of the third.

But in Edmonton last Monday, two days after the hit, Landeskog did not play. The team said he was out with head and leg injuries. He continued to travel with the team to Vancouver and Calgary, but he remained out of the lineup.

The Avalanche followed N.H.L. protocol in allowing Landeskog to return after he passed the SCAT2 evaluation exam, the standard for on-the-spot concussion assessment. But the latest research suggests that players suspected of having a concussion should be kept out of games no matter how they do on the SCAT2.

The team has not announced that Landeskog sustained a concussion but did place him on the injured reserve list Friday with a head injury. There is no timetable for his return. It is well known, however, that concussion victims sometimes do not show symptoms until days after an incident.

 

All well and terrific that Mason came back to play - and he played marvelously.

 

But that doesn't matter if, for example, he's unable to play next year because of it.

 

See: LaPerriere, Ian.

[canoli]

I didn't see an NHL baseline test described anywhere. Did I miss it? I read plenty of recommendations, lots of good ideas about erring on the side of caution. But nowhere did I see anything specific akin to "player must be symptom-free for ___ hours before returning to play." That's because there is no specific length of time for NHL players.

 

The best the NHL can do is what they've already done, establish a protocol for guys who take a head shot.

 

The bad news is the more we learn about concussions the closer we get to contact-free hockey. Or at least Greatly-Reduced-Contact hockey.

 

[edit:

But that doesn't matter if, for example, he's unable to play next year because of it.

 

only too true I'm afraid. Whoever thought Pronger would still be experiencing dizziness, headaches, etc. - and we're what, 3 years out from those hits? That's why I say the more we learn the faster we get to a time where it's hard to justify exposing athletes to such tremendous forces on the ice. The legal teams are already chomping at the bit to sue pro sports teams. The players are willing combatants but - as always - it comes down to money.

 

on a related note, speeding up the game while publicly decrying head injuries sounds more and more disingenous.]

Edited May 2, 2014 by canoli

[radoran]

I didn't see an NHL baseline test described anywhere. Did I miss it? I read plenty of recommendations, lots of good ideas about erring on the side of caution. But nowhere did I see anything specific akin to "player must be symptom-free for ___ hours before returning to play." That's because there is no specific length of time for NHL players.

 

The best the NHL can do is what they've already done, establish a protocol for guys who take a head shot.

 

The bad news is the more we learn about concussions the closer we get to contact-free hockey. Or at least Greatly-Reduced-Contact hockey.

 

You are correct, there is nothing that says "X number of symptom free days" - so, hey, it's worth it if they almost get to the second round to risk a player's long term health. Or get to the second round. Or the Conference Final.

 

Again, just ask Keith Primeau.

 

I must have missed the doctor saying "you had a concussion last week and a headache last night but you're fine this morning? Here's your skates!" Seriously, did you read the baseline guidelines? They are pretty standard regardless of source. Would you risk your health for that? Your son's? Your daughter's? Your wife's?

 

The Flyers have lost two three captains to concussion in the past 20 years and their own current assistant coach was experiencing concussion symptoms three years later.

 

As you say, every concussion is different.

 

So treat them the same way - just get on the plane, Eric back out on the ice as soon as possible. It's the playoffs!

[Polaris922]

If that is how he plays while suffering concussion symptoms, at the risk of sounding callous... keep him concussed.  I thought he played great against the Rangers.  He had a 1.97 goals-against average and a .939 save percentage.  Something to keep in mind... when dealing with concussions, and the stigma/mystery that goes with them, it is not uncommon for everyday headaches due to stress and other issues to be "related" to the concussion even if it's really not.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but in defense of the medical staff, unless Mason were to say he'd had non-stop headaches from the game he was run over in onward, there's no reason to believe a headache is from the concussion.  

[radoran]

If that is how he plays while suffering concussion symptoms, at the risk of sounding callous... keep him concussed.  I thought he played great against the Rangers.  He had a 1.97 goals-against average and a .939 save percentage.  Something to keep in mind... when dealing with concussions, and the stigma/mystery that goes with them, it is not uncommon for everyday headaches due to stress and other issues to be "related" to the concussion even if it's really not.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but in defense of the medical staff, unless Mason were to say he'd had non-stop headaches from the game he was run over in onward, there's no reason to believe a headache is from the concussion.  

 

We already tried that with Primeau.

 

unless Mason were to say he'd had non-stop headaches from the game he was run over in onward, there's no reason to believe a headache is from the concussion.  

 

Sure there are - if your primary concern is the health of the player and not the hockey team he plays for.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Here's the NHL article on their new Concussion Protocol:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=556289

 

Here are the actual documents:

http://sportsdocuments.com/nhl-protocol-for-concussion-evaluation-and-management/

 

Here are the Google results for "concussion baseline":

https://www.google.com/search?q=concussion+baseline&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

 

The CDC recommendations for "return to play"

http://www.cdc.gov/concussion/headsup/return_to_play.html

 

And then there's this:

http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/n-h-l-grapples-with-applying-its-own-concussion-protocols/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

 

 

All well and terrific that Mason came back to play - and he played marvelously.

 

But that doesn't matter if, for example, he's unable to play next year because of it.

 

See: LaPerriere, Ian.

 

Since you brought up the Avalanche... Did anyone here see when Andre Benoit got toonced up against the glass and hit his head on the ice last series? He looked knocked out for a split second and had a slight Fencing reaction going on with his arm. Telltale signs of concussion. 

 

He was back out next period and played the remainder. This is NOT just a Flyer org issue, obviously. Having had as many career ending concussions as the Flyers org has seen in the last 10 years, though, I would expect more precaution here. It is... disappointing. 

[Bakanekimiwa]

If that is how he plays while suffering concussion symptoms, at the risk of sounding callous... keep him concussed.  I thought he played great against the Rangers.  He had a 1.97 goals-against average and a .939 save percentage.  Something to keep in mind... when dealing with concussions, and the stigma/mystery that goes with them, it is not uncommon for everyday headaches due to stress and other issues to be "related" to the concussion even if it's really not.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but in defense of the medical staff, unless Mason were to say he'd had non-stop headaches from the game he was run over in onward, there's no reason to believe a headache is from the concussion.  

 

 

Well, we all know that he embellished it and this 'news' of concussion is really all just a smokescreen to continue the storyline. 

[canoli]

Extracting profit is sacrosanct in our culture and professional sports are no exception. In fact the "culture within a culture" of professional sports facilitates, even condones the pressure to profit at the expense of a player's health. Athletes are conditioned to "tough it out," to "get back out there, help the team." Protecting team assets is secondary to selling tickets. Nobody is to blame, it's just the way it is. That's why a doctor in good conscience can hand Mason his skates a day after treating him for a post-concussion headache, and why Mason laces em up without realizing he may be jeapordizing his career or worse.

 

I get what you're saying. The Flyers should be the last team to treat a player's health lightly, with anything less than rigourous adherence to the protocol. But there's 2 problems with blaming them: for one, the protocol itself only addresses the immediate time-frame after the hit, and then there's the profit motive compounded with the unwritten rules that expect players to minimize their symptoms and "get back out there."

[radoran]

I get what you're saying. The Flyers should be the last team to treat a player's health lightly, with anything less than rigourous adherence to the protocol. But there's 2 problems with blaming them: for one, the protocol itself only addresses the immediate time-frame after the hit, and then there's the profit motive compounded with the unwritten rules that expect players to minimize their symptoms and "get back out there."

 

It may come off as "blaming" but I'm more surprised than accusatory.

 

I am not a doctor and I don't play one on teevee, but I do have a friend who is a doctor and she worked with the people who did the baselines for the Philadelphia Soul for many years.

 

From her I know two things:

1) Teams (and team medical staffs) can pretty much make baseline tests mean whatever they want them to mean

2) Concussions are not something to be taken lightly.

 

The second thing is exacerbated by my experience as a Flyer fan watching three of the biggest Flyers players of the past two decades (Lindros, Primeau, Pronger) sidelined by concussion.

 

And I don't even like Keith Primeau

[Polaris922]

Well, we all know that he embellished it and this 'news' of concussion is really all just a smokescreen to continue the storyline.

If he hadn't embellished so much he never would've hit his head.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Polaris922

[canoli]

1) Teams (and team medical staffs) can pretty much make baseline tests mean whatever they want them to mean

 

exactly what I said earlier, which you rejected, that a "baseline is fluid, loose." 

 

well whatever - Mason is almost certainly okay if he can play the way he did on back-to-back nights. We don't have to worry about that cheap shot / embellishment in G81 anymore. But going forward? Yeah it sounds like the Flyers still need to get up to speed on how they handle their assets.

[radoran]

exactly what I said earlier, which you rejected, that a "baseline is fluid, loose." 

 

well whatever - Mason is almost certainly okay if he can play the way he did on back-to-back nights. We don't have to worry about that cheap shot / embellishment in G81 anymore. But going forward? Yeah it sounds like the Flyers still need to get up to speed on how they handle their assets.

 

I'm not as concerned about his start in Game 4 as about him being backup - and playing - in Game 3.

 

And, I didn't outright reject (I posted the guidelines and acknowledged everyone is different), I questioned the wisdom of having the asset you have already invested four years of a contract in on the ice in that situation - especially given the history of other (granted, forward/contact) players with the organization.

 

To cut to the quick, it's the "anything can happen" mentality of this organization in terms of regarding success, too often at the same time disregarding risk.

 

Many people have asked why it was that if Mason was healthy enough to backup in Game 3 they went with Emery.

 

The answer is now more likely that it wasn't Berube's strict decision, but rather a tactical move to get him acclimated to the game environment before putting him out for his first postseason start.

 

And, just for me, that means he likely shouldn't have been out there in the first place. If he can't handle the pressure of Game 4 as his first important playoff game with the Flyers, he's not going to put up the rest of the playoff that he did.

 

And by implication, the team was playing with the health of one of their most important assets just to acclimate him to the playoff atmosphere, which is something I don't particularly appreciate as a fan.

 

Anymore.

 

And, of course, more likely a heavy mixture of all of those elements boiled down into a difficult decision.

 

Given the history, I'm more willing to err on the side of caution.