Bertuzzi/Moore trial date finally nears

[J0e Th0rnton]

He's incapable of separating that stuff when really it's irrelevant to the incident on the ice.

How so? I don't like either player.

 

I am just calling a spade a spade.

[Commander Clueless]

How so? I don't like either player.

 

I am just calling a spade a spade.

 

Not sure I can trust an unbiased opinion from a guy with a Skeletor avatar. 

[J0e Th0rnton]

Not sure I can trust an unbiased opinion from a guy with a Skeletor avatar. 

I could always change it to CKY Skeletor! hahaha

[Vanflyer]

I'm not taking away from Bertuzzi's point scoring talents.  He pulled a goon move and deserves the title of goon for it.  When his career is over, what will he be most remembered for?  An assault.  

 

So, what title does Crosby get for punching a player in the balls?? 

[yave1964]

I could always change it to CKY Skeletor! hahaha

you are not going to start getting all weird with skeletor like that bunny guy was doing with his whole bunny thing, are you? nooooooooooo.

[Polaris922]

So, what title does Crosby get for punching a player in the balls??

Technically it was a rectal punch.. So "arse puncher" should work. But then I get to name Hartnell, Pronger, Giroux, etc etc... For their misconduct.

[Commander Clueless]

So, what title does Crosby get for punching a player in the balls?? 

 

G.O.A.T , clearly.

 

Punching a player in the pelvic region is a sign of intensity and competitiveness. His compete level is so absurdly high, it's approaching perversion.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[fanaticV3.0]

How so? I don't like either player.

 

I am just calling a spade a spade.

 

 

A lot of what you are saying is about Moore. You keep talking about how he wouldn't have had an NHL career anyway and may or may not have fake the severity of his injuries. If was some of the very first things you wrote. Neither one of those things are relevant to what Bertuzzi did on the ice. It's very obvious you don't like the guy and your opinion is tainted because of that.

[J0e Th0rnton]

A lot of what you are saying is about Moore. You keep talking about how he wouldn't have had an NHL career anyway and may or may not have fake the severity of his injuries. If was some of the very first things you wrote. Neither one of those things are relevant to what Bertuzzi did on the ice. It's very obvious you don't like the guy and your opinion is tainted because of that.

Duh. Mostly because of the dollar amount he is suing for(Bertuzzi's career earnings). I'm all for Steve Moore getting some Money. But it should be nothing more than the league minimum he would have been projected to make with a year or two in the NHL(At best), and 10 years of 3rd line AHL Salary tacked on.

 

Him not being an NHLer is just common knowledge. He was a 25 year old borderline 3rd line AHL Energy player, called up because the Avs had 9 injuries on the Roster and only playing 13 minutes a game, and all the avalanche fans at the time talked about was that they hope to get Kariya, or Forsberg, or whoever back from injury soon so they could send Moore back down(in fact, he was sent up and down 5 times that season and nobody even thought of picking him up on re-entry waivers). And he wants to sue for Superstar money. If he gets a hair over 3 million dollars, I'd call it overpayment.

 

I am a strong supporter of old time Hockey. The instigator rule has got to go, players should make sure they pull a Gordie Howe/Mark Messier and pay people like Ulf Samuelsson and Matt Cooke back with a KO/Broken jaw, and in this case, it was simply a matter of bad luck for all involved. I have Seen hundreds of worse incidents. Hundreds.

[yave1964]

Duh. Mostly because of the dollar amount he is suing for(Bertuzzi's career earnings). I'm all for Steve Moore getting some Money. But it should be nothing more than the league minimum he would have been projected to make with a year or two in the NHL(At best), and 10 years of 3rd line AHL Salary tacked on.

 

Him not being an NHLer is just common knowledge. He was a 25 year old borderline 3rd line AHL Energy player, called up because the Avs had 9 injuries on the Roster and only playing 13 minutes a game, and all the avalanche fans at the time talked about was that they hope to get Kariya, or Forsberg, or whoever back from injury soon so they could send Moore back down(in fact, he was sent up and down 5 times that season and nobody even thought of picking him up on re-entry waivers). And he wants to sue for Superstar money. If he gets a hair over 3 million dollars, I'd call it overpayment.

 

I am a strong supporter of old time Hockey. The instigator rule has got to go, players should make sure they pull a Gordie Howe/Mark Messier and pay people like Ulf Samuelsson and Matt Cooke back with a KO/Broken jaw, and in this case, it was simply a matter of bad luck for all involved. I have Seen hundreds of worse incidents. Hundreds.

I loved old time hockey, the occasional Milan Lucic type who can play and is downright nasty is a lot of fun to watch. I wish the Wings, who are way too passive could find one somewhere.

Moore had appeared in 56 games that year and looked to be a fourth liner with a modicum of talent as a P/K killer. He was a bit more than your BS about him being nothing more than an AHL third or fourth liner is frankly without merit. He was a hard working grinder who probably would have been around for several years.

But Joe, lets look at your point, you insult Moore as a non entity who would not have had much of a career anyway, lets say that it was the opposite, lets say that a journeyman, a dime a dozen fourth liner takes out a Bertuzzi, ending the career of a semi-star. Would that have made a difference to you?

Your McCarty comparision is so out of line as to be laughable. Many fights, many attacks could have led to a career ending injury up to and including Shawn Thornton on Orpik this year BUT DONT. Very, very few do. Those that do such as Bert/Moore or Forbes/Boucha need to be dealt with on an whole other level than anything else.

Do I think Bertuzzi should have had his career end? No, not really though I was never fond of him being on the Wings. I just felt that he should have gotten a longer suspension than he faced. The lockout essentially gave him a free pass.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I loved old time hockey, the occasional Milan Lucic type who can play and is downright nasty is a lot of fun to watch. I wish the Wings, who are way too passive could find one somewhere.

Moore had appeared in 56 games that year and looked to be a fourth liner with a modicum of talent as a P/K killer. He was a bit more than your BS about him being nothing more than an AHL third or fourth liner is frankly without merit. He was a hard working grinder who probably would have been around for several years.

But Joe, lets look at your point, you insult Moore as a non entity who would not have had much of a career anyway, lets say that it was the opposite, lets say that a journeyman, a dime a dozen fourth liner takes out a Bertuzzi, ending the career of a semi-star. Would that have made a difference to you?

Your McCarty comparision is so out of line as to be laughable. Many fights, many attacks could have led to a career ending injury up to and including Shawn Thornton on Orpik this year BUT DONT. Very, very few do. Those that do such as Bert/Moore or Forbes/Boucha need to be dealt with on an whole other level than anything else.

Do I think Bertuzzi should have had his career end? No, not really though I was never fond of him being on the Wings. I just felt that he should have gotten a longer suspension than he faced. The lockout essentially gave him a free pass.

Yave, Moore was sent up and down to the minors 4-5 times that year, and it was quite frankly because they had so many injuries all year that he played, not because he earned a spot. On his AHL teams, he was somewhere between 7th and 9th in scoring in his 2 full AHL years, and when on Colorado, he was not a Pker. In fact, he was 18th in time on ice per game on the PK. In fact, he only got called up because a few of the guys they called up ahead of him got injured. On any healthy NHL team, he is not in the lineup. This is a man who scored 23-27 points in 60-70 AHL game seasons and was not good in his own end.

 

And no, I don't think the McCarty comparison is out of line at all. McCarty threw a slew of suckerpunch violence at a man that dwarfs what Bertuzzi did to Moore for the same sort of reasons(After Lemieux had answered the bell for it a few games previous). Unlike Moore, but like most people who get jumped, Lemieux was okay.

 

If you want to say he deserved a longer suspension, I will not disagree. But to say moore deserves millions and millions of dollars is a joke. He deserves MAYBE 2 years of league minimum NHL pay, and then some years of AHL level pay.

Edited May 9, 2014 by J0e Th0rnton

[yave1964]

@J0e Th0rnton

This was not McCarty/Lemieux. This was not Thornton/Orpik. This was maybe no worse than any of those but the end result was.

If a guy drives drunk a dozen times and makes it home every time, that is egregious but not as much as if the same moron kills someone while doing so. McCarty deserved a suspension (in fact he was not even thrown out of the game and scored the winner in overtime) for suckering Lemieux but they did not have the same degree of impact.

Moore from the league deserves a fair and equitable settlement. From Bertuzzi he deserves whatever he can get.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

This was not McCarty/Lemieux. This was not Thornton/Orpik. This was maybe no worse than any of those but the end result was.

If a guy drives drunk a dozen times and makes it home every time, that is egregious but not as much as if the same moron kills someone while doing so. McCarty deserved a suspension (in fact he was not even thrown out of the game and scored the winner in overtime) for suckering Lemieux but they did not have the same degree of impact.

Moore from the league deserves a fair and equitable settlement. From Bertuzzi he deserves whatever he can get.

The leagues hands are tied. The CBA Specifies they can't give him a penny unless he drops the suit. So he has to take 1 or the other. It is hard to say what has been going on in negotiations for years since the gag order.

 

Moore deserves what he would have made in a regular 3rd line AHL career + a year or two at most of league minimum NHL pay. Moore's extremely slow skating worried Avs fans in the dead puck era. After the lockout it would have buried him

Edited May 9, 2014 by J0e Th0rnton

[yave1964]

The leagues hands are tied. The CBA Specifies they can't give him a penny unless he drops the suit. So he has to take 1 or the other. It is hard to say what has been going on in negotiations for years since the gag order.

 

Moore deserves what he would have made in a regular 3rd line AHL career + a year or two at most of league minimum NHL pay. Moore's extremely slow skating worried Avs fans in the dead puck era. After the lockout it would have buried him

The length of career is strictly your opinion. His brother has proven that heart can make a difference in how long you play.

[Polaris922]

Big difference between bad luck and reckless assault. This was a reckless assault. And Moore isn't just suing for what his salary would've been. He's suing for losing his shot, never playing again, headaches and vertigo, and punishment. That is why the system exists. That is what he's entitled to.

[J0e Th0rnton]

The length of career is strictly your opinion. His brother has proven that heart can make a difference in how long you play.

Moore did play with heart. It worked okay enough for him to have a fill in role in the dead puck era till everyone else got healthy. but at age 25, when most forwards are in their primes, he was showing no signs of getting good enough to be NHL level. His brother was a different story. At least he could skate in comparison.

 

Big difference between bad luck and reckless assault. This was a reckless assault. And Moore isn't just suing for what his salary would've been. He's suing for losing his shot, never playing again, headaches and vertigo, and punishment. That is why the system exists. That is what he's entitled to.

I promote and enjoy reckless assault when it comes to payback for something like taking out the leagues leading scorer by trying to make a name for himself with a Cooke/Torres style hit. Eye for an eye. And in my opinion, the players are under an unspoken contract to leave it on the ice. The game is and always has been a self policing matter, and I despise the NHL's attempts to remove that. And most of the players agree to that. Talk to any of them you can. I have.

 

Beukeboom had his career ended from a sucker punch by Matt Johnson(And that one looked completely unprovoked), yet nobody cared at the time. What is Jeff going to do? Sue Jobber Johnson? oh wait, it only works 1 way. If the other guy has money. I don't see Cam neely suing Ulf Samuelsson for destroying his thigh and wrecking a career worth millions. Or Pierre Mondou suing Ulf for that matter since his intentional high stick that ripped his eye out ended his career. Perhaps Marc Savard should sue Matt Cooke for dirty hit concussing his multi million dollar career into retirement? Oh wait! those hits were okay before. Mostly because few people threw those hits knowing the enforcers would beat them into a concussion themselves.

 

Notice when Domi sucker punched Ulf Samuelsson completely unconscious and it looked very bad(Neckbrace, stretcher), everyone in the league PRAISED Domi and said he should get a raise.

 

I loved watching when Mark Messier break Macoun's jaw for boarding him(Identical suckerpunch to Bertuzzi's, including going down with him). They showed it the other night while comparing it to Bertuzzi's. Same punch and landing, Messier on top, shattering his face. But a different outcome. People praise Messier for stuff like that(Myself included) and how he made people think twice before pulling crap like that on him. From what I am told, Gordie Howe was even worse. And for the record, yes, I praise McCarty for the violence against Claude Lemieux. I was merely stating it as an example of far worse violence.

 

The hockey world, and the world in general, has turned into a giant pantywaist fest when it comes to fighting and exacting revenge for dirty hits like in the old days. Now it is "Yes you can exact revenge........but you might get sued"

 

Just like the damn guy suing the rescue workers who saved his life.

 

So yes, I might be in the minority, but I love old school hockey and self policing. If McCarty had been afraid of hurting Lemieux too badly and let it end in just a small scrum because he might get sued, that game and rivalry would have gone from 10/10 awesome to 1/10 meh. And that is the direction the league is trying to take it. Effff that

[Polaris922]

I promote and enjoy reckless assault when it comes to payback for something like taking out the leagues leading scorer by trying to make a name for himself with a Cooke/Torres style hit. Eye for an eye. And in my opinion, the players are under an unspoken contract to leave it on the ice. The game is and always has been a self policing matter, and I despise the NHL's attempts to remove that. And most of the players agree to that. Talk to any of them you can. I have.

 

Beukeboom had his career ended from a sucker punch by Matt Johnson(And that one looked completely unprovoked), yet nobody cared at the time. What is Jeff going to do? Sue Jobber Johnson? oh wait, it only works 1 way. If the other guy has money. I don't see Cam neely suing Ulf Samuelsson for destroying his thigh and wrecking a career worth millions. Or Pierre Mondou suing Ulf for that matter since his intentional high stick that ripped his eye out ended his career. Perhaps Marc Savard should sue Matt Cooke for dirty hit concussing his multi million dollar career into retirement? Oh wait! those hits were okay before. Mostly because few people threw those hits knowing the enforcers would beat them into a concussion themselves.

 

Notice when Domi sucker punched Ulf Samuelsson completely unconscious and it looked very bad(Neckbrace, stretcher), everyone in the league PRAISED Domi and said he should get a raise.

 

I loved watching when Mark Messier break Macoun's jaw for boarding him(Identical suckerpunch to Bertuzzi's, including going down with him). They showed it the other night while comparing it to Bertuzzi's. Same punch and landing, Messier on top, shattering his face. But a different outcome. People praise Messier for stuff like that(Myself included) and how he made people think twice before pulling crap like that on him. From what I am told, Gordie Howe was even worse. And for the record, yes, I praise McCarty for the violence against Claude Lemieux. I was merely stating it as an example of far worse violence.

 

The hockey world, and the world in general, has turned into a giant pantywaist fest when it comes to fighting and exacting revenge for dirty hits like in the old days. Now it is "Yes you can exact revenge........but you might get sued"

 

Just like the damn guy suing the rescue workers who saved his life.

 

So yes, I might be in the minority, but I love old school hockey and self policing. If McCarty had been afraid of hurting Lemieux too badly and let it end in just a small scrum because he might get sued, that game and rivalry would have gone from 10/10 awesome to 1/10 meh. And that is the direction the league is trying to take it. Effff that

 

Have you actually watched the "hit" on Naslund?   That wasn't trying to take out a top goal scorer, that was Naslund putting himself in a stupid position by sliding to one knee when an opposing checker is closing on him to play the body.  Moore doesn't throw an elbow into his head or anything like that.  In fact his arm is tight to his body for the impact, and Naslund hits Moore's hip or kidney more than any arm.  Nothing and I mean absolutely NOTHING about that hit screamed Torres or Cooke.  Saying otherwise is a crap justification for the assault Bertuzzi undertook.  

 

Beukeboom's career didn't end because of the Johnson hit.  He suffered two more concussions after that, which then ended his career.  

 

Samuelsson's hit on Neely to this day has been called "borderline" by people who actually watch it without reading the names on the sweaters.  I won't argue Samuelsson made a career of borderline and cheap shots through the years, but the hit on Neely is into his thigh, not his knee, and Samuelsson didn't extend a knee into him.  HIs legs were in the same position from the moment he skated towards him till contact was made.  The injury to Neely was "a contusion to the right thigh".  Boston players even stated "that's something that often happens on open ice hits".  Neely was injured again 3 games later with more contact to his knee, but nobody remembers how that happened or with whom.  The Samuelsson hit didn't end his career, despite what all the incorrect fantasyland followers like to say.  What ended it was "myositis ossificans", which in something like 75% of the cases is a result of a person rushing back from a muscular injury too fast.  But it serves the Bruins better to blame Ulf Samuelsson instead of answering for their own medical decisions to let him play.  

 

As for Domi attacking Samuelsson, that was despicable.  I hate the Rangers, but Domi's attack on him was chickenscratch.  It was as cowardly as anything Samuelsson ever did.  And I don't think an 8 game suspension was enough for it.  If you want to get even with a player or send a message, do it like a man.  If he won't drop the gloves and you want to drop yours anyway and square up, then start swinging, then you served notice and it's a fair match.  Sucker punches have no place in the sport.  Period.  Your statement that "everyone" applauded Domi for it is an exaggeration.  Sure there were folks who weren't spilling beer over it, but there were a lot of people who felt Domi deserved much worse.  

 

The fact that you "praise McCarty" for the attack on Lemieux speaks volumes.  You're a good hockey poster Joe, but that's a serious negative on your character.  These antagonistic players are hated, sure, but they're not out there raping women and children.  They're playing a sport and riding the line to give people something to think about on the ice.  I hated Lemieux as much as the next guy, but once McCarty sucker punched him he had him down.  Dragging a beaten man around to beat him some more deserved more severe punishment than was handed out.  He didn't use the ice or in my opinion the boards to hurt him, but he should've gotten a very long suspension for it.  How you can praise such a cowardly move is beyond me.  

 

As for Samuelsson and Mondou... maybe if the league had treated that more severely in the first place, a lot of other dirty Samuelsson hits never happen?

 

None of that stuff is "old school hockey".  Old school hockey was when you took liberties with someone's star player their goon came up to you and dropped the gloves, in front of you, squared off and the fight was on.  Not skating up behind you and KO'ing you with a well placed blind side hit like a street thug (see McSorley, Bertuzzi, Thornton).  THAT's not hockey.  That's assault.  And no how no way you can convince anyone with an ounce of integrity that that kind of crap should be praised and not severely punished.  I'm all for tough fights and hard hits... don't pansify the league, so to speak.  But at the same time, there has to be a line where it's recognized you've crossed over into criminal conduct and it's NOT acceptable no matter the circumstance.  Bertuzzi crossed that line sucker punching him and riding his back into the ice.  Nobody had "bad luck" or "lost his balance" or any of the other excuses you've made for what is blatantly clear.   Bertuzzi intended to ride him down, even if he didn't mean to end his career.  Cause of the injury was reckless disregard for another's life.  If Moore gets a broken cheekbone or dislocated shoulder, no big deal.  The league suspends and everybody moves on.  But this altered a 25 year old man's life forever.  He should be paid for it.  

 

(Messier didn't break Macoun's jaw, but his cheekbone.  And that was actually retaliation for Macoun dumping Messier earlier and hurting him(, according to the two men.)  

Edited May 10, 2014 by Polaris922

[J0e Th0rnton]

Have you actually watched the "hit" on Naslund?   That wasn't trying to take out a top goal scorer, that was Naslund putting himself in a stupid position by sliding to one knee when an opposing checker is closing on him to play the body.  Moore doesn't throw an elbow into his head or anything like that.  In fact his arm is tight to his body for the impact, and Naslund hits Moore's hip or kidney more than any arm.  Nothing and I mean absolutely NOTHING about that hit screamed Torres or Cooke.  Saying otherwise is a crap justification for the assault Bertuzzi undertook.  

 

 

Bullcrap. But I won't bother arguing the point. Fans everywhere are split 50/50 on that hit as much as they are over the Bertuzzi situation.

 

 

Beukeboom's career didn't end because of the Johnson hit.  He suffered two more concussions after that, which then ended his career.

I beg to differ. He had post concussion syndrome from the punch, and every source cites it as the play that ended his career, although he tried to keep going and worsened the injury.

http://www.hockeyprimetime.com/news/features/beukeboom-weighs-in-on-nhl-player-safety

 

 

 

Samuelsson's hit on Neely to this day has been called "borderline" by people who actually watch it without reading the names on the sweaters.  I won't argue Samuelsson made a career of borderline and cheap shots through the years, but the hit on Neely is into his thigh, not his knee, and Samuelsson didn't extend a knee into him.  HIs legs were in the same position from the moment he skated towards him till contact was made.  The injury to Neely was "a contusion to the right thigh".  Boston players even stated "that's something that often happens on open ice hits".  Neely was injured again 3 games later with more contact to his knee, but nobody remembers how that happened or with whom.  The Samuelsson hit didn't end his career, despite what all the incorrect fantasyland followers like to say.  What ended it was "myositis ossificans", which in something like 75% of the cases is a result of a person rushing back from a muscular injury too fast.  But it serves the Bruins better to blame Ulf Samuelsson instead of answering for their own medical decisions to let him play.  

 

As for Domi attacking Samuelsson, that was despicable.  I hate the Rangers, but Domi's attack on him was chickenscratch.  It was as cowardly as anything Samuelsson ever did.  And I don't think an 8 game suspension was enough for it.  If you want to get even with a player or send a message, do it like a man.  If he won't drop the gloves and you want to drop yours anyway and square up, then start swinging, then you served notice and it's a fair match.  Sucker punches have no place in the sport.  Period.  Your statement that "everyone" applauded Domi for it is an exaggeration.  Sure there were folks who weren't spilling beer over it, but there were a lot of people who felt Domi deserved much worse.

Is that a joke. The borderline game 3 hit is the one you are referring to where Ulf lead with his knee ? Samuelsson hit him in the same spot in game 6 Which was the one that messed him up permanently. Neely went to hit him, and he ducked and spiked his knee out into his thigh.

 

"Rushing back from a muscular injury too fast"? He effectively sat 2 years waiting for it to get better. He played a game here and there to see if it was healed. It wasn't, and he wasn't the same player. and as it turned out, it wasn't going to get better.

 

Most people praised Domi for that cheapshot. Like it or not. I loved it. Ulf speared him in the nuts the season before and Domi remembered.

 

 

 

The fact that you "praise McCarty" for the attack on Lemieux speaks volumes.  You're a good hockey poster Joe, but that's a serious negative on your character.  These antagonistic players are hated, sure, but they're not out there raping women and children.  They're playing a sport and riding the line to give people something to think about on the ice.  I hated Lemieux as much as the next guy, but once McCarty sucker punched him he had him down.  Dragging a beaten man around to beat him some more deserved more severe punishment than was handed out.  He didn't use the ice or in my opinion the boards to hurt him, but he should've gotten a very long suspension for it.  How you can praise such a cowardly move is beyond me.  

 

As for Samuelsson and Mondou... maybe if the league had treated that more severely in the first place, a lot of other dirty Samuelsson hits never happen?

There is a vast difference between playing chippy and bashing a guys teeth in versus throwing intentional, injury causing hits in the flow of a game. The chippy guys who punish the intentional injury hitters, I love

 

None of that stuff is "old school hockey".  Old school hockey was when you took liberties with someone's star player their goon came up to you and dropped the gloves, in front of you, squared off and the fight was on.  Not skating up behind you and KO'ing you with a well placed blind side hit like a street thug (see McSorley, Bertuzzi, Thornton).  THAT's not hockey.  That's assault.  And no how no way you can convince anyone with an ounce of integrity that that kind of crap should be praised and not severely punished.  I'm all for tough fights and hard hits... don't pansify the league, so to speak.  But at the same time, there has to be a line where it's recognized you've crossed over into criminal conduct and it's NOT acceptable no matter the circumstance.  Bertuzzi crossed that line sucker punching him and riding his back into the ice.  Nobody had "bad luck" or "lost his balance" or any of the other excuses you've made for what is blatantly clear.   Bertuzzi intended to ride him down, even if he didn't mean to end his career.  Cause of the injury was reckless disregard for another's life.  If Moore gets a broken cheekbone or dislocated shoulder, no big deal.  The league suspends and everybody moves on.  But this altered a 25 year old man's life forever.  He should be paid for it.  

 

Tell that to Gordie Howe. If you hit Gordie in a way he did not like, he would often wait several games before you let your guard down and then elbow you into unconsciousness.

 

And he is widely regarded as "Mr Hockey", the way the game should be played.

 

(Messier didn't break Macoun's jaw, but his cheekbone.  And that was actually retaliation for Macoun dumping Messier earlier and hurting him(, according to the two men.)

Yep. Macoun boarded him. he was fine and got back up. but later in the game, he did the same thing bert did. Sorry, they just replayed it last night. Cheekbone/Jaw. Either way his face was destroyed.

[yave1964]

@J0e Th0rnton

You are so far off subject it is absurd. Like Polaris said you are a great poster but for some reason everything posters are putting in here you seem to want to argue with and disagree with (on this subject) which confuses me because you are a wonderful poster.

The two cases that to me seem to have the most bearing on the case are:

Wilf Paiement swung his stick like a baseball bat and drilled superpest Dennis Polonich across the face exploding his nose. Polonich suffered headaches, he continued playing but his career quickly deteriorated.

Ted Lindsay, the general manager of the Wings at the time, recalled the incident this way: "Paiement planted his feet, and with both hands at the bottom of his stick, took a full baseball batter's swing, striking Dennis in the face. If it had been a little higher, he could have been killed."

Polo ended up suing Paiement and was awarded 850,000 in damages for the attack. "I still have a breathing impairment because my nose was crushed like an eggshell. My septum is deviated now. It's not straight. There's facial disfigurement."

And then there is Dave Forbes and Henry Boucha.

The two players had been chippy and were serving matching fighting penalties, coming out of the penalty box Boucha began skating across ice paying no attention as Forbes came across at him and butted him in the eye with the end of his stick. Forbes was not satisfied with jabbing Boucha's eye and inflicting a 30-stitch cut. As Boucha went to the ice and put both hands over his face in an attempt to stop the flow of blood, Forbes jumped him and started throwing punches to the back his head.

After undergoing eye surgery, Boucha returned to the North Stars lineup in late February. "He can't see, but he wants to play," coach Charlie Burns said. "He loses the puck because he doesn't know which one to go after."

There was talk Boucha's double vision might go away in four weeks. Then, it was going to be four months. Boucha left the Stars that summer and signed with the Fighting Saints in St. Paul. He went from there back to the NHL with Kansas City, and then the Scouts became the Colorado Rockies.

Nine games into the 1976-77 season, the Rockies suspended Boucha. The suspension was not because of chemical use, not because of a discipline problem. The reason for suspending Boucha and dropping him from the payroll was this: "Inability to play skilled hockey because of impaired vision."

In the subsequent criminal lawsuit a hung jury occurred, Forbes had pleaded not guilty by reason of temporary insanity. Boucha ended up suing Forbes and the NHL and was awarded 3.5 million dollars in 1980, far, far more than Boucha had earned and was likely ever to earn in his NHL career.

THESE cases have a direct bearing on the Moore/Bertuzzi civil suit, IMHO. Don't confuse legal guilt or innocence as to assault or not, it is a civil suit which is a completely different animal. Boucha and Polo were both quite capable of attempting to continue their careers with varying success, unlike Moore. A civil suit is not an attempt to prove guilt or innocence it is an attempt to prove responsibility.

Forbes was responsible for Boucha having permanent vision issues and his career ending at 25. Guilt was not an issue. Responsibility was.

Paiement was responsible for Polonich suffering lifelong headaches and a deviated septrum and more. Guilt, again, is not an issue responsibility was.

Moore suffered career ending injuries and life changing issues. Guilt, again, at least from a criminal case is not the issue responsibility is.

And unlike both Forbes and Paiement Bertuzzi DID plead guilty to the assault upon Moore. He received a year probation and 80 hours community service as part of his plea. His plea of guilt, according to everything I have read on the case from attorney's makes the civil suit even harder to defend against.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

You are so far off subject it is absurd. Like Polaris said you are a great poster but for some reason everything posters are putting in here you seem to want to argue with and disagree with (on this subject) which confuses me because you are a wonderful poster.

The two cases that to me seem to have the most bearing on the case are:

Wilf Paiement swung his stick like a baseball bat and drilled superpest Dennis Polonich across the face exploding his nose. Polonich suffered headaches, he continued playing but his career quickly deteriorated.

Ted Lindsay, the general manager of the Wings at the time, recalled the incident this way: "Paiement planted his feet, and with both hands at the bottom of his stick, took a full baseball batter's swing, striking Dennis in the face. If it had been a little higher, he could have been killed."

Polo ended up suing Paiement and was awarded 850,000 in damages for the attack. "I still have a breathing impairment because my nose was crushed like an eggshell. My septum is deviated now. It's not straight. There's facial disfigurement."

And then there is Dave Forbes and Henry Boucha.

The two players had been chippy and were serving matching fighting penalties, coming out of the penalty box Boucha began skating across ice paying no attention as Forbes came across at him and butted him in the eye with the end of his stick. Forbes was not satisfied with jabbing Boucha's eye and inflicting a 30-stitch cut. As Boucha went to the ice and put both hands over his face in an attempt to stop the flow of blood, Forbes jumped him and started throwing punches to the back his head.

After undergoing eye surgery, Boucha returned to the North Stars lineup in late February. "He can't see, but he wants to play," coach Charlie Burns said. "He loses the puck because he doesn't know which one to go after."

There was talk Boucha's double vision might go away in four weeks. Then, it was going to be four months. Boucha left the Stars that summer and signed with the Fighting Saints in St. Paul. He went from there back to the NHL with Kansas City, and then the Scouts became the Colorado Rockies.

Nine games into the 1976-77 season, the Rockies suspended Boucha. The suspension was not because of chemical use, not because of a discipline problem. The reason for suspending Boucha and dropping him from the payroll was this: "Inability to play skilled hockey because of impaired vision."

In the subsequent criminal lawsuit a hung jury occurred, Forbes had pleaded not guilty by reason of temporary insanity. Boucha ended up suing Forbes and the NHL and was awarded 3.5 million dollars in 1980, far, far more than Boucha had earned and was likely ever to earn in his NHL career.

THESE cases have a direct bearing on the Moore/Bertuzzi civil suit, IMHO. Don't confuse legal guilt or innocence as to assault or not, it is a civil suit which is a completely different animal. Boucha and Polo were both quite capable of attempting to continue their careers with varying success, unlike Moore. A civil suit is not an attempt to prove guilt or innocence it is an attempt to prove responsibility.

Forbes was responsible for Boucha having permanent vision issues and his career ending at 25. Guilt was not an issue. Responsibility was.

Paiement was responsible for Polonich suffering lifelong headaches and a deviated septrum and more. Guilt, again, is not an issue responsibility was.

Moore suffered career ending injuries and life changing issues. Guilt, again, at least from a criminal case is not the issue responsibility is.

And unlike both Forbes and Paiement Bertuzzi DID plead guilty to the assault upon Moore. He received a year probation and 80 hours community service as part of his plea. His plea of guilt, according to everything I have read on the case from attorney's makes the civil suit even harder to defend against.

 

Sorry Yave. Big difference between aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and a sucker punch in both those cases.

 

And, yes, career ending/life changing issues mean he will get something, but how much will be projected on the issues I already brought up. I.E the fact that he was a 25 year old AHL player who had yet to find his niche and was only called up due to injuries to the Avs and other call up injuries and headed back to the minors the moment the Avs got healthy.

 

Moore, to get a significant amount of NHL level pay will have to prove he would have been staying in the big leagues. Both Boucha(Who had a suit for 3.5 million, but settled for less out of court) and Polonich were established NHL players with many years of NHL level pay ahead of them. Moore, by all accounts, did not even play a full NHL season since he was sent back to the minors 4 times that year, and was not a considersation for the Avs if their Roster was healthy. Furthermore, the lockout year will be subtracted from any settlement.

 

A year or two of league minimum NHL pay and 8-10 years of AHL level pay.

2-3 million. Max.

 

 

[Old School Hockey]

Many refuse to acknowledge Moore was offered a contract. His legal team would not allow him to step anywhere a doctors office! That to me speaks volumes. Why not allow Moore to have a physical? I think we know that answer?

Now on to Bertuzzi. He committed an offense during a hockey game. He served his league determined suspension. For years I've heard punish action not the result. For years I've heard he (Bertuzzi) shouldn't be playing. Well folks Bertuzzi actions are by FAR not the most violent or ban worthy in the history of the NHL.

So let's look at some of the incidences that get swept under the rug when the Bertuzzi incident comes up.

Hunter vs Turgeon blind hit well after a goal scored

Suter vs Kariya cross check the neck of Kariya

Simon vs Hollweg two handed swing to a man head

MvSorley vs Brashear another slash to the head

Clarke vs Kharlamov a slash so hard it broke the guys ankle

Shore vs Bailey he came from behind and flipped Bailey smashing his head on to the ice

All of the Flyers of the 70's should still be serving time in jail

And the granddaddy of them all!

Rocket Richard vs Cliff Thompson! Never heard of Cliff Thompson? He was the f@@king linesman Richard attacked after he gave Hal Laycoe a viscous two hander to His back which followed a high stick to his face. Richard punched Thompson in the face twice.

All of the above were much worse than Bertuzzi vs Moore.

So we punish the action or the result? Think about some of the players that would have served some very long suspensions if not career ending suspensions.

Two bottom lines here. IMO Moore is NOT as hurt as his legal team wants YOU to believe. If so why not allow Moore to see a Doctor?

Secondly and more important. NHLPA to the NHL!

NHL what are you going to do to stop the NHLPA from bashing each other's brains in?

Yes I'm a Wings fan but this nothing to do with the Wings! This has to with the hypocrisy that many have when it comes to Bertuzzi vs Moore and previous (and some later) incidences on the ice. And oh where's Marc Crawford in all of this? That f@@king spline less weisel?

Ok jumping off of the soapbox!

[J0e Th0rnton]

Many refuse to acknowledge Moore was offered a contract. His legal team would not allow him to step anywhere a doctors office! That to me speaks volumes. Why not allow Moore to have a physical? I think we know that answer?

Now on to Bertuzzi. He committed an offense during a hockey game. He served his league determined suspension. For years I've heard punish action not the result. For years I've heard he (Bertuzzi) shouldn't be playing. Well folks Bertuzzi actions are by FAR not the most violent or ban worthy in the history of the NHL.

So let's look at some of the incidences that get swept under the rug when the Bertuzzi incident comes up.

Hunter vs Turgeon blind hit well after a goal scored

Suter vs Kariya cross check the neck of Kariya

Simon vs Hollweg two handed swing to a man head

MvSorley vs Brashear another slash to the head

Clarke vs Kharlamov a slash so hard it broke the guys ankle

Shore vs Bailey he came from behind and flipped Bailey smashing his head on to the ice

All of the Flyers of the 70's should still be serving time in jail

And the granddaddy of them all!

Rocket Richard vs Cliff Thompson! Never heard of Cliff Thompson? He was the f@@king linesman Richard attacked after he gave Hal Laycoe a viscous two hander to His back which followed a high stick to his face. Richard punched Thompson in the face twice.

All of the above were much worse than Bertuzzi vs Moore.

So we punish the action or the result? Think about some of the players that would have served some very long suspensions if not career ending suspensions.

Two bottom lines here. IMO Moore is NOT as hurt as his legal team wants YOU to believe. If so why not allow Moore to see a Doctor?

Secondly and more important. NHLPA to the NHL!

NHL what are you going to do to stop the NHLPA from bashing each other's brains in?

Yes I'm a Wings fan but this nothing to do with the Wings! This has to with the hypocrisy that many have when it comes to Bertuzzi vs Moore and previous (and some later) incidences on the ice. And oh where's Marc Crawford in all of this? That f@@king spline less weisel?

Ok jumping off of the soapbox!

It is definitely a big point. But his supporters try to argue against it by saying "I would not let an NHLPA doctor near me if I were him either". The implications are obvious.

 

What really turned me from casual impartial to against Steve Moore was the dissertation his lawyer released in the late 2000's.

It read like a work of fiction trying to make him sound like a bonefied NHL star who would have made multi millions rather than what he was(A cup of coffee call up).

 

I have been looking for a copy of it because he took it down rather quickly (it got a lot of negative backlash and they released a reworded version), but it read somewhere along the lines of "After years of hard work, Steve not only made the NHL team, a team which won a cup just prior with superstars such as Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Tanguay, Hejduk, but worked his way to first line duties of an NHL team that was league best with a star studded lineup that had just signed and added free agents Selanne and Kariya. Finally Steve was playing alongside players he idolized growing up, and as an equal. His dream of being an NHL superstar able to provide for his entire family after years of hard work had become a reality....."

 

etc etc

 

It even had a section that was worded to make it sound like player violence and his case in particular, was a large reason for the NHL lockout and missed hockey year.

 

It was a ridiculous dissertation with the obvious goal of trying to word it as if he was a shoe in NHL first line superstar with a long career worth multi millions. When in fact, he was just a 25 year old call up fill in, who would have never made the lineup if not for many injuries(including injuries to people they called up ahead of him). He was the pair of shoes at the back of the closet that you wore because a flood soaked your 5 other pairs. A piece of tape wrapped around a napkin because you could not find a band aid.

 

[yave1964]

@J0e Th0rnton

Joe the length of his career has NOTHING TO DO with the civil suit. Okay, a slight exaggeration, but not much.

If a rich guy is injured/wronged by a poor man, does that mean that people shrug their shoulders and say well he cannot afford to pay for his slight upon the wealthier man so lets just let it go.

If a poor man is wronged/injured by a rich man are career earnings of the poor man the end all be all of deciding how much the rich guy will pay in damages? no, of course not. It is a factor, but in a typical court of law only a small portion to be considered.

So stop denigrating Moore as a minor player. It is irrelevant. Your making him sound worse than he was BTW but even if he could not stand on skates and was the worst player in the history of the game, it truly makes no difference.

Forgetting the hockey part of the equation, he is a man who was assaulted by a man, a wealthy man who pled guilty to the assault that changed his life forever for the worst. Now it is time for the civil suit where the rich man will find out how much the assault that he pled guilty to is going to cost not only him but his employer who was directly involved. Moore as a mediocre player at best will have his career earnings used as a consideration in the case but it is not the end all be all that you seem to be making it. Your beating the drum for a small part of the equation expecting it to be the only thing under consideration when it is simply just a little piece of the pie. Stop beating on Moore and look at the big picture and you will see just how the situation will work out for the NHL and Bertuzzi.

Length of career and expected career earnings are a consideration but only one, and no more important than anyone of a dozen or more to consider.

[Old School Hockey]

It is definitely a big point. But his supporters try to argue against it by saying "I would not let an NHLPA doctor near me if I were him either". The implications are obvious.

 

What really turned me from casual impartial to against Steve Moore was the dissertation his lawyer released in the late 2000's.

It read like a work of fiction trying to make him sound like a bonefied NHL star who would have made multi millions rather than what he was(A cup of coffee call up).

 

I have been looking for a copy of it because he took it down rather quickly (it got a lot of negative backlash and they released a reworded version), but it read somewhere along the lines of "After years of hard work, Steve not only made the NHL team, a team which won a cup just prior with superstars such as Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Tanguay, Hejduk, but worked his way to first line duties of an NHL team that was league best with a star studded lineup that had just signed and added free agents Selanne and Kariya. Finally Steve was playing alongside players he idolized growing up, and as an equal. His dream of being an NHL superstar able to provide for his entire family after years of hard work had become a reality....."

 

etc etc

 

It even had a section that was worded to make it sound like player violence and his case in particular, was a large reason for the NHL lockout and missed hockey year.

 

It was a ridiculous dissertation with the obvious goal of trying to word it as if he was a shoe in NHL first line superstar with a long career worth multi millions. When in fact, he was just a 25 year old call up fill in, who would have never made the lineup if not for many injuries(including injuries to people they called up ahead of him). He was the pair of shoes at the back of the closet that you wore because a flood soaked your 5 other pairs. A piece of tape wrapped around a napkin because you could not find a band aid.

I've just grown very tired of the "Bertuzzi should NOT be playing and should be in jail" argument when much worse dirty plays have happened before and after the Bertuzzi/Moore incident go unnoticed (hypocritically) because the alleged injury didn't result!

[Old School Hockey]

@J0e Th0rntonJoe the length of his career has NOTHING TO DO with the civil suit. Okay, a slight exaggeration, but not much.If a rich guy is injured/wronged by a poor man, does that mean that people shrug their shoulders and say well he cannot afford to pay for his slight upon the wealthier man so lets just let it go.If a poor man is wronged/injured by a rich man are career earnings of the poor man the end all be all of deciding how much the rich guy will pay in damages? no, of course not. It is a factor, but in a typical court of law only a small portion to be considered.So stop denigrating Moore as a minor player. It is irrelevant. Your making him sound worse than he was BTW but even if he could not stand on skates and was the worst player in the history of the game, it truly makes no difference.Forgetting the hockey part of the equation, he is a man who was assaulted by a man, a wealthy man who pled guilty to the assault that changed his life forever for the worst. Now it is time for the civil suit where the rich man will find out how much the assault that he pled guilty to is going to cost not only him but his employer who was directly involved. Moore as a mediocre player at best will have his career earnings used as a consideration in the case but it is not the end all be all that you seem to be making it. Your beating the drum for a small part of the equation expecting it to be the only thing under consideration when it is simply just a little piece of the pie. Stop beating on Moore and look at the big picture and you will see just how the situation will work out for the NHL and Bertuzzi.Length of career and expected career earnings are a consideration but only one, and no more important than anyone of a dozen or more to consider.

How about you address my argument. Do we punish the action or the result!

Just because what Scott Stevens did was within the rules at the time doesn't make it any less relevant! Every time he stepped to the ice his goal was to injure and/or intimidate the other players.