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Why Shero is not the problem...


B21
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Caveat: I tried to keep this post to notable players; those that clearly helped or clearly hurt.  Example: Mike Comrie was a "bust" but on a 1 year deal for around $500,000 that signing didn't hurt the Pens.

 

First a look at Shero's picks in Rounds 1-3 since he was named GM in May of 2006...

 

2006 (2)

1st – Staal (Passed on Toews…)

2nd – Carl Sneep

3rd – Brian Strait

 

2007 (20)

1st – Angelo Esposito (Sent to ATL in Hossa trade…)

2nd – Keven Veilleux

3rd – Casey Pierre Zabotel

3rd – Robert Bortuzzo

 

2008 (29)

1st – Sent to ATL in Hossa trade…

2nd – Sent to TOR in Hal Gill trade…

3rd – Sent to PHX for Laraque (with Carcillo!)

 

2009 (30)

1st – Simon Depres

2nd – Phillip Samuelsson

3rd – Sent to NYI for Bill Guerin…

 

2010 (20)

1st – Beau Bennett

2nd – Sent to FLA for Jordon Leopold…

3rd – Bryan Rust

 

2011 (23)

1st – Joe Morrow (Sent to DAL for in the Brendan Morrow trade…)

2nd – Scott Harrington

3rd – Sent to PHI for rights to Dan Hamhuis…

 

2012 (22)

1st – Derek Pouliot (From Carolina in the Staal trade…)

1st – Olli Maatta

2nd – Teodors Blugers

3rd – Oskar Sundqvist

3rd – Matt Murray

 

2013

1st – To CAL in the Iginla trade…

2nd – To SJ in the Doug Murray trade…

2nd - Tristan Jarry

3rd – To CBJ for ???

 

28 possible picks. 9 (33%) traded before the Pens even had a change to use them. As for the remaining 18...

 

Prospect Traded:  Esposito & Morrow (2)

Current NHLer: Staal, Bortuzzo, Strait, Bennett and Maatta (5)

Busts: Sneep, Zabotel, Veilleux, Rust (4)

NHL Ready/Close to Ready: Harrington, Depres, Pouliot, Samuelsson (4)

TBD/No Idea: Blugers, Sundqvist, Murray, Jarry (4)

 

That's 5 NHLers (Strait was a victim of numbers in Pittsburgh). 4 players who should be regulars with the Pens in 1-2 years.

 

So in 1-2 years Shero's draft record could easily look like this: 10 NHLers. 9 traded picks. 9 busts.  Is hitting on over 1/2 of the picks you actually had good? Bad? Average?

 

As for the traded picks? Good: Hossa. Guerin. Iginla. Gill. Bad: Hamhuis.  No Difference: Laraque. Leopold. Morrow. Murray. 

 

Trades.  The obvious good to great trades are Neal/Niskanen for Goligoski. Jokinen for a 7th. Guerin. Whitney for Kunitz. A bag of puck for Hossa and Dupuis. The Staal trade. Bad: Ponikarovsky.

 

Free Agents. Good: Martin. Vokoun. Didn't overpay to keep Gonchar or Ryan Malone. Bad: Scuderi. Michalek.

 

At then end of the day I put Shero somewhere in the 5-10 range among GM's. He's done well with limited picks keeping the system relatively stocked while drafting in the bottom 3rd of the draft. Way more often than not he's on the better end of his trades.  He's aggressive at the deadline though not always successful (see: Ponikarovsky).

 

Anyway - feel free to add/debate. I could have missed some things.

 

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My problem isn't with the picks. I suppose one could argue over some of the traded picks and whether the return was worth it, but I personally could argue on either side of that and would feel equally uncomfortable on both.

And, really, since what, 2008(?) it's not exactly like he's had a strong draft position (the side effect of strong teams).

My criticism is the types of players that were on the finals teams who have left and haven't successfully been replaced with that type.

It's not even that losing specific players was his fault. Some were age (Guerin, for example, although I'm drawing a blank on the name of the older guy who preceded him who is actually a better example... Help me if you can).

Some were free agency. You'll laugh at Talbot but he brought more than his third or fourth line minutes would suggest.

Even a sandpaper guy like Cooke.

I don't mean to sound post mortem because I still think they win this series. But they've lost a bunch of real "character" guys and I think the team strikingly lacks this in the playoffs.

Is that Shero? Or is that due to the type of player or type of game that Bylsma wants to play?

I think I still go back to Shero in either case. Because even if it's the latter, I think maybe he's stuck to long with the wrong coach. I give him a little bit of a pass because you want to give a cup winner as much rope as possible.

But IF they lose game seven I think it's time the rope turns into a noose. Then give Shero the opportunity to bring in a different coach and maybe a few tweaks to change the complexion of the team.

I certainly don't fire Shero yet. Let him do the above. Just saying at this point he would share responsibility. Just give him the chance to correct it.

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@B21

 

 33% of their picks were traded away before the Pens even had a chance to use them? Well that really puts Shero in a hole right off the bat...any idea who may have traded them? My biggest beef with Holmgren is trading so many picks away, yet Shero's just disappeared? He traded them.

 

 The guy was "spotted" the best 1-2 punch down the middle in hockey who hadn't even reached their prime yet, a #1 goalie, the chance to take maybe the only other center you could argue was better than one of the two he had (which he blew) and another top 5 pick. In 8 years he's failed to get a 2nd winger for Crosby and a 2nd winger for Malkin. He's made some nice picks recently on D (one going back to having a 2nd overall pick) but has kept the coach who even the homer Pen fans are calling for his head. He made some nice trades,(turning Goligoski into Neal AND Niskanen) and some bad ones.(getting one humiliating playoff run from 34 year old Brendan Morrow for your 1st round pick + is a Homer move, and a bad one at that - how about 2-1sts + for 30 games of Hossa + ?)

 

 Shero isn't a bad gm, he's just not great either. Heck, most gms wouldn't look so bad either with 5 top draft picks including 2 franchise players to start with.

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My criticism is the types of players that were on the finals teams who have left and haven't successfully been replaced with that type.

It's not even that losing specific players was his fault. Some were age (Guerin, for example, although I'm drawing a blank on the name of the older guy who preceded him who is actually a better example... Help me if you can).

Some were free agency. You'll laugh at Talbot but he brought more than his third or fourth line minutes would suggest.

Even a sandpaper guy like Cooke.

I don't mean to sound post mortem because I still think they win this series. But they've lost a bunch of real "character" guys and I think the team strikingly lacks this in the playoffs.

Is that Shero? Or is that due to the type of player or type of game that Bylsma wants to play?

I think I still go back to Shero in either case. Because even if it's the latter, I think maybe he's stuck to long with the wrong coach. I give him a little bit of a pass because you want to give a cup winner as much rope as possible.

But IF they lose game seven I think it's time the rope turns into a noose. Then give Shero the opportunity to bring in a different coach and maybe a few tweaks to change the complexion of the team.

I certainly don't fire Shero yet. Let him do the above. Just saying at this point he would share responsibility. Just give him the chance to correct it.

 

The 'old guy' pre-Guerin was Gary Roberts.

 

I'm on the fence with your point about character guys.

 

In 2008-09 (Cup) the Pens 3rd and 4th lines (where you tend to find "character guys") were generally...

 

Cooke/Staal/Kennedy

Adams/Talbot/Whoever

 

Kunitz and Guerin were added at the deadline.

 

Dupuis, Peter Sykora, Rusty Fedotenko and Mirslav Satan moved up and down the line-up all season. Adams was a waiver pick up that year.

 

That's basically the group of fowards that surrounded the Malkin/Crosby "core".

 

On D, Orpik, Scuderi, Gill and Eaton could be considered your "character" guys (Letang was young. Gonchar was old and injured most of the year).

 

So....Kunitz is still here. So is Dupuis. Orpik. Adams. Scuderi. Do they miss a Talbot or a Guerin? Sure. Are Fedotenko, Satan and Sykora character guys though? Not the kind that you would expect to rally the troops when their backs are against the wall.  

 

I just see enough "character" guys in place on this team; guys who were there in 2008-09. Sutter (Staal's replacement) has been one of their best players this post-season.  Ditto Paul Martin. 

 

To me it all comes back to coaching.  First and foremost it falls to the coach to rally the troops and that is where Bylsma fails.

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Do they miss a Talbot or a Guerin? Sure. Are Fedotenko, Satan and Sykora character guys though?

 

Rusty Fedotenko had a way of scoring big goals in big moments, he was a solid energy guy , a responsible two way player that could play 10-13 minutes a night to give the "scorers" some time to regenerate their energy. Those other eastern european guys had similar games but not the "holy **** was that Fedotenko that just scored ?" vibe.

 

EDIT: plus wasn't Ryan Malone on the cup and finals year team too ?  he was also a solid no - nonsense guy back then.  today well maybe not so much. 

 

 

I also think guys like Gary Roberts and Bill Guerin had a presence to them that the Crosby , Malkin era guys don't have *yet* , those guys paid the price and expected everyone else to as well, they helped to hold guys accountable including the Malkins and Crosbys. Now there isn't another steadying voice in the room. Plus i think post concussion Crosby has a very difficult time managing his emotions when things get physical, he can say all the right things post game, but in the moment he cannot regulate his behavior... this is year three that i've seen it,  it constitutes a "trend".  when your lead dog keeps chasing cars the rest of the pack is ****ed. 

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@flyercanuck

 

33% of their picks were traded away before the Pens even had a chance to use them? Well that really puts Shero in a hole right off the bat...any idea who may have traded them? My biggest beef with Holmgren is trading so many picks away, yet Shero's just disappeared? He traded them.

 

Last time I checked the Pens weren't rebuilding.  They are a team that "goes for it" every year - which they should be doing.  That means that if you have a chance to improve your team at the deadline without disrupting the current roster - which means trading picks and/or prospects - you do it.  The Pens have a core whose window is wide open.  Your beef with Holgren I completely agree with because he is making the same  type of deals as Shero but his core's window has not yet opened.  Aside from the pick dealt to Philly for the rights to Hamhuis, every single pick dealt by Shero has been a mid-season/deadline aquisition.  And yet with all of these traded picks the Pens have a glut of prospects on D that is the envy of any team this side of the Buffalo Sabres.  Not too shabby in net either with Hartzell and Jarry.  Admittedly low on the forward side but really - we are going to call Shero overrated/average/not great for that when 5 of the top 6 forward spots are locked up for the next 3+ years and the 3rd line center is only 23 and RFA?

 

 

The guy was "spotted" the best 1-2 punch down the middle in hockey who hadn't even reached their prime yet, a #1 goalie, the chance to take maybe the only other center you could argue was better than one of the two he had (which he blew) and another top 5 pick. In 8 years he's failed to get a 2nd winger for Crosby and a 2nd winger for Malkin. He's made some nice picks recently on D (one going back to having a 2nd overall pick) but has kept the coach who even the homer Pen fans are calling for his head. He made some nice trades,(turning Goligoski into Neal AND Niskanen) and some bad ones.(getting one humiliating playoff run from 34 year old Brendan Morrow for your 1st round pick + is a Homer move, and a bad one at that - how about 2-1sts + for 30 games of Hossa + ?)

 

A 1-2 punch that were the core of a team he put together that went to a SCF and then won a Cup.  Then that 1-2 punch became a 1-punch (sometimes a "0" punch) with the amount of time Crosby and Malkin missed with injuries.  Now healthy again they made it back to the ECF last year. This year...well.... ;)

 

That #1 goalie is the same goalie who has repeatedly melted down on the post season after the Cup win. Shero's fault? Luckily the "average" GM was smart enought to bring in a back-up like Vokoun who  literally saved the Pens in the post season last year.

 

He's done about as good as he can getting those 2nd wingers for Crosby and Malkin, too.  At the end of the day to have stars like Crosby and Malkin you have to pay them. Even at below-to-fair market value the Pens simply cannot put studs on both wings. Crosby did just fine with Kunitz and Dupuis. Malkin does just fine with Neal and "whoever".  This year it's Jokinen.  How's he working out for a 7th round pick? ;) Shero has to go bargain hunting and he's done a pretty good job there.

 

I don't get the "has to find winger" for Sid/Malkin criticisms. Last time I checked they are both among the top scorers each year with what they have been given to work with. Sometimes I think critics will not be satisfied until they put up 150 point seasons each.

 

Bad trades: Ponikarovsky. I'll give you Morrow, too. Hossa? Not a chance. That is the kind deal a team going for it makes.  If Holgrem makes it? Yes - bad.  But the Pens?  They went to the SCF after that trade. Worth every pick/player. The Sutter/Staal deal? Brilliant.  Oh - Niskanen and Neal for Goligoski is a "nice" trade? :wacko:  Howabout phenominally phenominal.

 

One thing you didn't mention. Contract lengths and cap hits.  Who on the Pens is overpaid and signed for too long a deal (based on players of comparable age and skill set)?  Scuderi - I think that one hurts us down the road. I can't think of any others....past or present.  Martin. Neal. Kunitz. Dupuis. All below market value. Didn't overpay for Talbot, Malone or Gonchar.

 

Shero isn't a bad gm, he's just not great either. Heck, most gms wouldn't look so bad either with 5 top draft picks including 2 franchise players to start with.

 

Like I said - if we are ranking him I put him in the 5-10 range. One of the better GM's in the league.  To me that's close to great. Certainly above average. Certainly not overrated.

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Rusty Fedotenko had a way of scoring big goals in big moments, he was a solid energy guy , a responsible two way player that could play 10-13 minutes a night to give the "scorers" some time to regenerate their energy. Those other eastern european guys had similar games but not the "holy **** was that Fedotenko that just scored ?" vibe.

 

 

I also think guys like Gary Roberts and Bill Guerin had a presence to them that the Crosby , Malkin era guys don't have *yet* , those guys paid the price and expected everyone else to as well, they helped to hold guys accountable including the Malkins and Crosbys. Now there isn't another steadying voice in the room. Plus i think post concussion Crosby has a very difficult time managing his emotions when things get physical, he can say all the right things post game, but in the moment he cannot regulate his behavior... this is year three that i've seen it,  it constitutes a "trend".  when you're lead dog keeps chasing cars the rest of the pack is ****ed. 

 

Rusty was...clutch?...on occasion. Characted guy? I don't know. Doesn't strike me as the type. Guerin and Roberts? Absolutely.

 

Agree 100% on Crosby and controlling his emotions.

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@B21

 

 So if he's one of the better gms in the league, who was handed 2 franchise players not even in their prime, how come he's only won one cup? There's plenty of gms who've won A cup. And most of them weren't handed a Crosby and a Malkin. I mean you have to admit everyone and their mother would like to have that as a starting point. Heck, Homer may have won A cup if he was handed Crosby and Malkin. Or a half decent goalie.

 

 Since they won 5 years ago the playoffs have ended in embarrasment for them more than something to be proud of. That may be more on his goalie, or the coach, or the players. But he's the guy who's supposed to put the right pieces together, and so far he's done a good, but hardly great job.

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@B21

 

 So if he's one of the better gms in the league, who was handed 2 franchise players not even in their prime, how come he's only won one cup? There's plenty of gms who've won A cup. And most of them weren't handed a Crosby and a Malkin. I mean you have to admit everyone and their mother would like to have that as a starting point. Heck, Homer may have won A cup if he was handed Crosby and Malkin. Or a half decent goalie.

 

 Since they won 5 years ago the playoffs have ended in embarrasment for them more than something to be proud of. That may be more on his goalie, or the coach, or the players. But he's the guy who's supposed to put the right pieces together, and so far he's done a good, but hardly great job.

 

So what should he have done differently?

 

It's easy to say "Sure - he inherited Crosby and Malkin and should win every year!"

 

So why have their been 9 different Cup winners in the last 10 years? You didn't disagree with most of what I said about the moves he's made.  Does that mean has he made enough "right" moves?  If so then doesn't it fall to the coach? I think so.

 

As for playoff embarassment - yeah, last year was. In the Eastern Conference Finals

 

Was losing to the Flyers embarassing considering the Pens and Flyers finished 4th and 5th in points in the league that year? Not really.

 

Was blowing the 3-1 lead to the Bolts without Crosby, Malkin and Staal embarassing? Not at all.

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So what should he have done differently?

 

 Better coach? Better goalie? Heck, keep it the same as far as I'm concerned.

 

It's easy to say "Sure - he inherited Crosby and Malkin and should win every year!"

 

 Not every year.  But you'd think a "great" gm who inherited the pieces in place he did would have more than one. Which leads me to believe he's more good than great.

 

 So why have their been 9 different Cup winners in the last 10 years? You didn't disagree with most of what I said about the moves he's made.  Does that mean has he made enough "right" moves?  If so then doesn't it fall to the coach? I think so.

 

Who's coach?

 

As for playoff embarassment - yeah, last year was. In the Eastern Conference FinalsSweep

 

 

Was losing to the Flyers embarassing considering the Pens and Flyers finished 4th and 5th in points in the league that year? Not really. LOL really?

 

Was blowing the 3-1 lead to the Bolts without Crosby, Malkin and Staal embarassing? Not at all. So losing in the first round without the 3 top 2 pick players that were handed to you is acceptable? Sure, for a mediocre gm. Lot's of teams do that. That's my point.

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@flyercanuck

 

So what should he have done differently?

 

 Better coach? Better goalie? Heck, keep it the same as far as I'm concerned.

 

I agree he should have gotten rid of Bylsma last year.  Better goalie - like Vokoun? Or should he not haved inked Fleury to a 7 year/$35,000,000 deal after he posted a .921 Save % and 2.33 GAA in the regular season AND a 1.97 GAA and .933 GAA in the run to the first Cup final? Market. Value.  Or should he have foreseen the mental midget Fluery would turn into?

 

It's easy to say "Sure - he inherited Crosby and Malkin and should win every year!"

 

 Not every year.  But you'd think a "great" gm who inherited the pieces in place he did would have more than one. Which leads me to believe he's more good than great.

 

Last time I checked Crosby and Malkin were going to be playing a few more years.  The only players on the 08-09 Cup team left over from the 05-06 team that Shero took over were Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Orpik and Gonchar.  That tells me he's more than capable of finding the complementary parts with a handful of players taking up a big chunk of cap space.

 

So why have their been 9 different Cup winners in the last 10 years? You didn't disagree with most of what I said about the moves he's made.  Does that mean has he made enough "right" moves?  If so then doesn't it fall to the coach? I think so.

 

Who's coach?

 

His coach. They guy he hired who won the first Cup and who I've already said multiple times he has kept around too long. Does keep Disco Dan 1 year too many make him an overrated GM? That's nitpicking. 

 

I guess Stan Bowman is the only great GM out there since his is the only team to win multiple Cups in recent memory.

 

 

 

 

As for playoff embarassment - yeah, last year was. In the Eastern Conference Finals.  Sweep   So? Advanced further than 26 other teams (and 26 other GM's). 

 

 

Was losing to the Flyers embarassing considering the Pens and Flyers finished 4th and 5th in points in the league that year? Not really. LOL really?  Yeah. Really. 

 

Was blowing the 3-1 lead to the Bolts without Crosby, Malkin and Staal embarassing? Not at all. So losing in the first round without the 3 top 2 pick players that were handed to you is acceptable? Sure, for a mediocre gm. Lot's of teams do that. That's my point.

 

So he should have had comparable replacements already on the roster? Nit. Picking.  I guess is does not matter either that the same team kept up the same point pace during the regular season with the injuries finally catchin up in the post season. 

 

Would you have blamed Holmgren if the Flyers lost a 1st round series sans Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds? No.

 

 

Edited by B21
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I agree he should have gotten rid of Bylsma last year.  Better goalie - like Vokoun? Or should he not haved inked Fleury to a 7 year/$35,000,000 deal after he posted a .921 Save % and 2.33 GAA in the regular season AND a 1.97 GAA and .933 GAA in the run to the first Cup final? Market. Value.  Or should he have foreseen the mental midget Fluery would turn into?

 

 Ok so we agree on Bylsma. Are you confident Fleury can win you another cup? (truth) Cause I'm not.

 

Last time I checked Crosby and Malkin were going to be playing a few more years.  The only players on the 08-09 Cup team left over from the 05-06 team that Shero took over were Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Orpik and Gonchar.  That tells me he's more than capable of finding the complementary parts with a handful of players taking up a big chunk of cap space.

 

So in other words, the team that Shero built hasn't made the finals once.

 

His coach. They guy he hired who won the first Cup and who I've already said multiple times he has kept around too long. Does keep Disco Dan 1 year too many make him an overrated GM? That's nitpicking. 

 

I guess Stan Bowman is the only great GM out there since his is the only team to win multiple Cups in recent memory.

 

I'd say there's maybe a handful of great gms. I just don't see Shero as one.

 

So? Advanced further than 26 other teams (and 26 other GM's). 

 

 Holmgren managed to do that twice. Without Crosby and Malkin.  Doesn't make him great.

 

 Yeah. Really. 

 

 So having an entire team meltdown while your goalie somehow manages to perform worse than Bryzgalov was a good run? Trust me, I know an embarassing loss when I see it. We had one the next round.

 

 

 

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@flyercanuck

 

Ok so we agree on Bylsma. Are you confident Fleury can win you another cup? (truth) Cause I'm not.

 

 

Yes. He's not likely to win a Cup by himself - there are only a handful of netminders who can do that.  But I think he is over the hump of the last few seasons.

 

 

So in other words, the team that Shero built hasn't made the finals once.

 

Sure it has. Twice.  Won it once.  I disagree with you that for a GM to get credit he has to build the team from "scratch".  5 players left from the team he took over. 5.  I don't care that two of them were Malkin and Crosby. That's a roster overhaul. 

 

 

I'd say there's maybe a handful of great gms. I just don't see Shero as one.

 

I'm not saying great.  I'm saying among the better GM's in the league.  Somewhere 5th through 10th.  To me that is good - not great.

 

NOT average. NOT overrated.

 

 

Holmgren managed to do that twice. Without Crosby and Malkin.  Doesn't make him great.

 

No - it doesn't. Ray's actually done it 3 times.  Dean Lombardi has done it once and I'd put him ahead of Shero. 

 

 

So having an entire team meltdown while your goalie somehow manages to perform worse than Bryzgalov was a good run? Trust me, I know an embarassing loss when I see it. We had one the next round.

 

Splitting hairs here but losing itself was not embarassing. It was the way they lost.  Not all 1st round losses are created equal.  If you have two of the top 5 teams in the league meeting in the 1st round a very good team is going home early.

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@flyercanuck

 

 

Yes. He's not likely to win a Cup by himself - there are only a handful of netminders who can do that.  But I think he is over the hump of the last few seasons.

 

 Time will tell...he's certainly proven he's capable of losing a series by himself.

 

 

 

Sure it has. Twice.  Won it once.  I disagree with you that for a GM to get credit he has to build the team from "scratch".  5 players left from the team he took over. 5.  I don't care that two of them were Malkin and Crosby. That's a roster overhaul. 

 

 

Well he won the cup and made the finals with a roster basically put together by someone else. Now that he's "overhauled" it (except for his two superstars that he had nothing to do with acquiring) he's never made the finals.

 

 

I'm not saying great.  I'm saying among the better GM's in the league.  Somewhere 5th through 10th.  To me that is good - not great.

 

NOT average. NOT overrated.

 

Good, not great. That's what I've been saying.

 

No - it doesn't. Ray's actually done it 3 times.  Dean Lombardi has done it once and I'd put him ahead of Shero. 

 

 

Ok......

 

 

Splitting hairs here but losing itself was not embarassing. It was the way they lost.  Not all 1st round losses are created equal.  If you have two of the top 5 teams in the league meeting in the 1st round a very good team is going home early.

 

Sure. If that makes you feel better I'm good with it.

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@flyercanuck

 

Well he won the cup and made the finals with a roster basically put together by someone else. Now that he's "overhauled" it (except for his two superstars that he had nothing to do with acquiring) he's never made the finals.

 

 

Don't they teach math in Canada? ;)  1 sheep + 1 sheep = 2 sheep.

 

20 players dress for a hockey game.  The Finals teams had 5 players left over from the tea Shero took over.  5 / 20 = 75%.  Roster. Overhaul.

 

Time will tell...he's certainly proven he's capable of losing a series by himself.

 

 

No argument here!

 

Good, not great. That's what I've been saying.

 

 

Sure 'bout that? ;)

 

"Been saying it for a few years...I don't think Shero is that good of a gm. He was spotted 2 great players, and 3 more top 5 picks. He's added a guy here and a guy there. He won one cup on a team built by someone else. Not a whole lot to show for 8 years IMO."  -flyercanuck

 

I forgive you. ;)

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Sure 'bout that? ;)

 

"Been saying it for a few years...I don't think Shero is that good of a gm. He was spotted 2 great players, and 3 more top 5 picks. He's added a guy here and a guy there. He won one cup on a team built by someone else. Not a whole lot to show for 8 years IMO."  -flyercanuck

 

I forgive you. ;)

 

Damn - I knew I said "Shero isn't a bad gm, he's just not great either."

 

And "and so far he's done a good, but hardly great job."

 

And then "Which leads me to believe he's more good than great."

 

Followed by "I'd say there's maybe a handful of great gms. I just don't see Shero as one."

 

 

 

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Damn - I knew I said "Shero isn't a bad gm, he's just not great either."

And "and so far he's done a good, but hardly great job."

And then "Which leads me to believe he's more good than great."

Followed by "I'd say there's maybe a handful of great gms. I just don't see Shero as one."

Yeah, well ya still suck at math

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To me Shero is the one GM in the league that if I was a rival GM I would never deal with, under any circumstances. He is the absolute master of the throw in, as in, I know we have a deal worked out with Goligoski for Neal, I need a d-man back, how about that Niskanen guy. Or I know you are already donating Hossa to me for a bag of marbles and an autographed Ron Francis 8 by 10 glossy, but how about that Dupuis guy too.

He finds diamonds in the rough, Stempniak from Calgary, Jokinen from Carolina. Yes, he gives up picks, but he gets quality back in return more often than not. Last year he went all in and it didn't work out, this year he took a step back and they are still right in the thick of it. To me he is not only a quality GM but one of the very top GM's in the game.

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And I don't think it's just about character guys. Last year they brought in Iginla, Morrow and Murray. Still flopped in the conference finals. A lot of this is squarely on Bylsma.

Edited by Polaris922
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@ruxpin

 

 Haha. I thought he was saying he only had 5 players presently from the cup team.

 

 Sure it has. Twice.  Won it once.  I disagree with you that for a GM to get credit he has to build the team from "scratch".  5 players left from the team he took over. 5.  I don't care that two of them were Malkin and Crosby. That's a roster overhaul. 

 

 It was clear as mud to me. And i agree with B that's an overhaul. But I still stick by my thinking that he looks like a lot better gm WITH Crosby and Malkin than he would without. As would anyone.

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I think Shero has done a great job.  I disagree with the "he's good" attitude of the thread and argue he's in the top 5 easy.  The guy's knack for "throw ins", and his work with the hands being tied by Staal and still coming out the winner of the deal cannot be ignored.  A couple bad signings, but I don't really see any bad trades there.  We're a little thin on wing in the prospects department, but very very few teams have it all when it comes to that, and our defense prospects are stellar.  

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@Polaris922

 

 Well if you guys are satisfied with having played as many playoff rounds as the Flyers over the last 5 years that's great. I'd expect more out of a team with those two players. I'm glad Homers gone, cause I'm NOT happy with not being a true contender.

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