Throwing it out there: Jussi Jokinen

[radoran]

Problem is the blue line is pretty full, it feels like only tweaks are available back there. Improving the Flyers possession game might be the best way to improve the preformance of the defense.

 

I absolutely concur that they "need to address" defense, but the organization doesn't seem to share the opinion... As it stands:

Coburn, Schenn and Grossmann are all signed for the next two seasons with some form of NT/NMC

Streit is on a 35+ contract for the next three.

MacDonald was just signed for six years.

 

And by all accounts, the Flyers are trying to get Timonen back.

 

There's your Top Six. Yes, guys can be traded with NM/NTCs. The question at hand is "will they?"

 

Add in Gotstobehere, Haag and Morin, not to mention Gustaffsson, Alt and Lauridsen (all of whom are also under contract).

[flyercanuck]

I absolutely concur that they "need to address" defense, but the organization doesn't seem to share the opinion... As it stands:

Coburn, Schenn and Grossmann are all signed for the next two seasons with some form of NT/NMC

Streit is on a 35+ contract for the next three.

MacDonald was just signed for six years.

 

And by all accounts, the Flyers are trying to get Timonen back.

 

There's your Top Six. Yes, guys can be traded with NM/NTCs. The question at hand is "will they?"

 

Add in Gotstobehere, Haag and Morin, not to mention Gustaffsson, Alt and Lauridsen (all of whom are also under contract).

 

haha...you came up with "Crater"...how about "Gotsbeer?" The questionmark as part of the name?

[radoran]

haha...you came up with "Crater"...how about "Gotsbeer?" The questionmark as part of the name?

 

davies came up with Crater - although she didn't really mean to at the time

 

rux and I then rode that horse into the ground.

 

I like Gotsbeer? - make it so!

[OccamsRazor]

Could he get back there with Giroux centering him?

 

Absolutely G turned Hartnell into a 37 goal scorer even!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

That netted him his 60 year 250 million $ deal!!!!!

Edited May 15, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

 Ok I thought you were the creator of Crater (though you likely already gave props to Davies)

 

 Gotsbeer?

 

 Done!

[canoli]

Problem is the blue line is pretty full, it feels like only tweaks are available back there. Improving the Flyers possession game might be the best way to improve the preformance of the defense.

 

Well I definitely appreciate your point - getting better Team-Wide at managing the puck is mandatory. The Flyers go nowhere next spring if they keep turning pucks over at the rate they did this season. I just think a workhorse type of D-man, somebody like Bieksa maybe ? not saying him but a big-minute, dependable guy who can move the puck - I always liked Jack Johnson though I know I'm in the minority.

 

Anyway I just think an improved D will help the Flyers more than say Vanek or whoever you get up front to go with Giroux/Jake.

 

[edit: Vanek would do wonders for that top line no question. But I think the D is so shaky and under-confident, esp now with Kimmo looking at limited minutes...that the mistakes they make (that everybody makes) multiply during a game because they never recover; they've got no "VOICE" back there to right the ship after a bad sequence.]

Edited May 15, 2014 by canoli

[OccamsRazor]

I always liked Jack Johnson though I know I'm in the minority.

 

No you're not........always love this kid game. He is ok in his own zone. But could sure use his puck play and accurate shot from the point. Sign me up.

 

Edit: Ok let me fix that by saying you could be still in the minority but you're not alone!!!!

Edited May 15, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[canoli]

haha! Nice! I really "heard it" last summer when his name came up...."he's soft" "he doesn't like to hit" etc. He's no world-beater and I wouldn't go after him now because he'd only be another 3-4 guy I guess. But the Flyers can't go into next season with Coburn/Streit or Coburn/Mac as top pair. Can they?

 

Coburn can't be "the man." And the Isles proved that Mac is no 24-min #1 either. So unless we think the younger guys are ready to lead an NHL defense I don't know how the Flyers put together 3 pairs of D-men that is even a little bit feared / respected on the ice.

[OccamsRazor]

"he's soft" "he doesn't like to hit" etc.

 

Hell so is Streit.

 

And his contract would be cheaper (by about 1 mill) and he is younger (will be 28)  His contract is the same length as Streit's.

 

But Columbus ain't giving him up.

 

 

 

Coburn can't be "the man."

 

I'd be a lot happier if he could just find his booming shot he lost before his eye injury. Coburn maybe by default is this team #1. Even if i don't agree with it or like it.

 

But he really is a stay a t home Dmen and is adequate for now. But i wouldn't be completely shocked if he was dealt at or after the draft. Defense some how some way needs to be improved...i want to see Hexy work some magic. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[aziz]

Flyers go nowhere next spring if they keep turning pucks over at the rate they did this season.

For me, that isn't nearly the issue people make it out to be. I think the Flyers' defensive shortcomings have become something of an urban legend. The truth is they had the ninth fewest giveaways last season. The turnovers that we see, most fan bases see more. The defense isn't elite, but I don't think it is a gaping wound. I think the Flyers' elevated shots against totals have way more to do with one-and-done offensive sequences and the league highest time shorthanded (by a serious margin). Discipline and more consistent play by the forward lines would do more for the team than any given import on the blue line.

[radoran]

For me, that isn't nearly the issue people make it out to be. I think the Flyers' defensive shortcomings have become something of an urban legend. The truth is they had the ninth fewest giveaways last season. The turnovers that we see, most fan bases see more. The defense isn't elite, but I don't think it is a gaping wound. I think the Flyers' elevated shots against totals have way more to do with one-and-done offensive sequences and the league highest time shorthanded (by a serious margin). Discipline and more consistent play by the forward lines would do more for the team than any given import on the blue line.

 

I agree. Top to bottom I think the D isn't nearly as bad as people say - but that they do lack the "true #1" (which is what I meant by "address the defense" earlier).

 

As it is, they're spending nearly $22M on five guys next season.

[OccamsRazor]

Top to bottom I think the D isn't nearly as bad as people say - but that they do lack the "true #1" (which is what I meant by "address the defense" earlier).

 

Well that guy will have to be Morin not saying he is a number #1...teams don't trade those guys.

 

And if they do it will certainly set this team back even further heading into next year.

 

So they'll just have to deal with have 2 #2s (Coburn) and i'm not sure Kimmo can be considered a #2 anymore so i'll call him a #3.

 

And 3 #4s (Streit, Amac, Schenn) a #5-6 (GrossmanN) and a #6 - #7 (Gus).

 

More on the way but really no #1 in the cupboards. So for arguments sake we'll jsust pretend Morin is the #1 coming to the rescue but he is a couple years a way even.

 

Great now this really depresses me...thanks!!! 

Edited May 15, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[aziz]

Great now this really depresses me...thanks!!!

Well, look at it this way : very few teams have the kind of number 1 dman that makes a profound difference. A bunch of teams have an offensive defenceman who is clearly at the top of their depth chart, but having Kris letang or Mike green around only helps certain parts of the game. Pk subban isn't the defensive liability he used to be, but his real contribution is almost entirely offensive. Doughty, suter, same thing. Guys like Chara, pronger, Niedermayer.... only a small handful of those guys are in the league at this point. Cups can be won without them. Duncan Keith is about as close as it gets out of the teams remaining this spring. Everyone else is running minus that all around franchise #1 guy.

[OccamsRazor]

Well, look at it this way : very few teams have the kind of number 1 dman that makes a profound difference. A bunch of teams have an offensive defenceman who is clearly at the top of their depth chart, but having Kris letang or Mike green around only helps certain parts of the game. Pk subban isn't the defensive liability he used to be, but his real contribution is almost entirely offensive. Doughty, suter, same thing. Guys like Chara, pronger, Niedermayer.... only a small handful of those guys are in the league at this point. Cups can be won without them. Duncan Keith is about as close as it gets out of the teams remaining this spring. Everyone else is running minus that all around franchise #1 guy.

 

 

Yes and there is no quick fix to this problem.

 

I hope they find a legit LW to play with Claude.  

 

And a complete training camp and preseason under Berube on top of all these guys maturing taking these lesson learned and use it to stoke their fire and they figure some thing out next year.

 

And to have faith in Mason after his performance this past playoffs(a much welcome change) will make them better and more battle tested. They'll reap the benefits next year.

[Vanflyer]

Left wing, UFA, having a bit of a coming out party (7 goals) this playoff. $3M this season.

 

I like him. Not sure I would say coming out party since he did nearly the identical thing 4 years ago with the 'canes. For me, while not "mr clutch briere", he is a gamer in the playoffs. 

 

He is a .5 ppg player in the regular season. Not sure if that merits top line status / minutes / salary. The Flyers could certainly do worse. 

 

The big problem with him, is he is injury prone. When healthy, a very good player, but he is often injured. 

[Vanflyer]

but he is a natural LW we need a center nose tackle we can put there..

 

fixed it for ya! :-P

[Vanflyer]

I'm just kicking tires. If he can be a consistent 20g/50p guy on the LW that can open up space in other areas for "internal" growth with 34-year-old former Tampa players.

 

 

Funny. We need to get a winger to bail out our bad signing. (I should add sad). 

 

Seriously, we need a LW and we could do much worse than him. We used to have a LW wing. What was his name? Its similar to an old TV show actor and has dyke in it. 

[OccamsRazor]

fixed it for ya! :-P

 

Hey they got one.......in Beau Allen 6-2 335!!!

 

A natural NT...greatly needed. I know you're a closet Eagles fan i'll keep you up to date i know its hard to keep up after the blast over there in Nagasaki or where ever you at double agent!!!! 

[OccamsRazor]

Funny. We need to get a winger to bail out our bad signing. (I should add sad). 

 

Seriously, we need a LW and we could do much worse than him. We used to have a LW wing. What was his name? Its similar to an old TV show actor and has dyke in it. 

 

Radovan Somik????????????????????????????????? 

[Vanflyer]

Hey they got one.......in Beau Allen 6-2 335!!!

 

How good can he skate??? 

[canoli]

@aziz - an urban legend? You must be joking. The TOs in R1 - particularly in G5 and G7 - crushed any chance at momentum or puck-possession advantage. Equally important, all that chasing tired out the skaters long before they should've been, over the game and over the series.

 

The numbers over the season - 9th fewest I think you said - don't bother me or impress me; watching the games and seeing when and where the TOs happen, that's what concerns me. In G5 we had 9 in the 1st period. Nine, and most of them were terrible, handing the Rags are prime scoring chance. OTOH I'm sure the Flyers had reg season games where they committed 5 or 6 the whole game. When/where matters - the number of them over a season not so much.

 

Of course TOs are not the problem per se, they're a symptom of a D that's lacking a steadying "voice" - an obvious #1 D-man - a guy who sets the tone for the defensive attitude. I'm not saying sell the farm to get Weber or anyone else. But we need someone who has the attitude and experience to corral those 6 players into something greater than the sum of 2+2+2.

[aziz]

You must be joking. The TOs in R1 - particularly in G5 and G7 - crushed any chance at momentum or puck-possession advantage.

no, not joking. i'm way more apt to blame an amazingly inconsistent forecheck for puck possession or momentum issues than defensive turnovers. i saw a several defensive turnovers in each game, no doubt. maybe, what, 25 for the series? twenty times every game i saw the forwards fail to establish and maintain possession in the offensive zone. twenty+ times every game the blue line was won, and then a broken play and the rangers headed the other direction. twenty times every game, seven games, 140 lost opportunities for possession because the forwards couldn't get it together? as compared to 25, maybe 30 times the defensemen lost the puck? 40, maybe? where does more blame belong?

When/where matters - the number of them over a season not so much.

when/where matters, but to evaluate it, you need to be as aware of when/where other teams turn the puck over as you are the flyers. in my experience, i did not the see the flyers turning the puck over in bad areas particularly more or less than other teams. their defensive possession was by no means a strength, but i didn't see it as the cause of any larger result. again, an offense that came and went, a forecheck that came and went, those were the things that caused the final scores, as far as i was concerned. the rangers did not capitalize particularly on defensive zone gaffs. they capitalized on offensive zone failures that trapped forwards deep. pucks lost behind the net when the forecheck fizzled, not pucks lost when the dmen handed the puck over in front of mason. it happened, yes, but there were way more odd man rushes off of weak pressure from the forwards than there were off of coburn et al making bad passes.

Of course TOs are not the problem per se, they're a symptom of a D that's lacking a steadying "voice" - an obvious #1 D-man - a guy who sets the tone for the defensive attitude. I'm not saying sell the farm to get Weber or anyone else. But we need someone who has the attitude and experience to corral those 6 players into something greater than the sum of 2+2+2.

i agree with this. thing is, the only guy in the league right now who might be able to provide that and might be available is weber, and we are all pretty done hearing about that whole thing. the kings don't have that voice, the habs don't have it, the ducks don't. doughty and subban provide a lot of value, but a "steadying voice" that "sets the tone for the defensive attitude" is not part of that. new york and chicago kind of have that, but just kind of. the bruins had it, but it amounted to not a lot.

i guess i'm just trying to say that the flyers' defensive deficiency, while real, is pointed to as the cause of a lot of things that happened due to a lot of other factors. it is a favorite scape goat, and the addition of a single superman a favorite magic pill. if chara were magically traded to the flyers in the off-season for a 7th round pick and no other changes were made, the flyers would only be a marginally better team (trivia: he was "credited" with more turnovers last season than any flyer dman). if the flyers were able to add a real first line LW, they would be able to stabilize their lines, allow players to grow into roles, and the team would be several strides from where it was last season.

imo, defense is a concern, but it isn't the largest concern. it isn't nearly as bad as this board seems to think.

Edited May 16, 2014 by aziz

[OccamsRazor]

How good can he skate??? 

 

 

Not sure he will backup Mason at that size he sure has to take up a lot of net!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[canoli]

@aziz

 

I saw tons more TOs in our own end than in the Rangers zone. Add in the N zone TOs and to me it was a glaring deficiency: the Flyers could not advance the puck with anything remotely resembling control. Mason bailed them out so many times I lost count. Of course some of the TOs were by Flyers' forwards; I can't put them all on the D-men.

 

Naturally the forecheck was weak; when you scramble for 10-15 secs. chasing TO after TO and then barely manage to hang onto the puck long enough to get it up ice... your gaps are all screwed up, guys are out of sync and before you know it you need to get off. Rinse and repeat. How many top line shifts were wasted due to sloppy puck management? That number as a percentage could very well be 50%. Think of that. Half the time G/Jake/Whoever hopped over the boards they were forced to chase, play D and get back off. Too many times the breakout was not a breakout at all but a Keystone Cops routine where luck played the biggest part in determining whether or not the Flyers came up with the puck.

 

I've watched many other PO games and the only team I've seen with consistent TO troubles has been the Kings. Last night I wasn't sure they would hang onto the lead because of the sloppy passing out of their zone. Fortunately for them they calmed down and quit turning the puck over as the game went on. But the 1st and into the 2nd I kept thinking "looks just like the Flyers."

 

I agree with you about "the voice" if we define it as a Pronger or Lidstrom type. That player has always been rare and today he's practically non-existent. But the Rangers have that voice in a way. Same with all the R2 PO teams. It's not "Chara" and it's not "McDonagh" it's their D-men who together are more talented than the Flyers' D-men. Not by a mile, but enough. The Rags have 3 sturdy D-men who rarely get rattled; the Bruins and the Habs, 3 and 4 respectively. In some cases like Chara or Subban it's a one-of-a-kind player who has gifts that aren't found in most other players; with the Hawks it's more about a traditional D that has 2 really good players who lead a team commitment to defensive excellence.

 

Maybe Berube can get more out of who we have. But the Flyers' blue line is not a confident bunch. Maybe Berube can mold the team enough to create that confidence, the way Torts/AV and the Rangers have. I doubt it because the Flyers defensemen, compared to the Bruins or the Rags - any of this year's R2 PO teams - are just not as good.

 

A strong blue line is greater than the sum of its parts; for the Flyers it's not and I don't see how it ever will be without some outside help - or by waiting for Ghost/Haag to maybe make an impact.

[doom88]

I'm with Aziz here too. The forwards were way more of a problem than the D. I'll try to expand later when I get to a laptop or something.