Time to shake things up?

[flyercanuck]

@flyercanuck

Oh and few GM's had to deal with the rarity that is a lowered salary cap after wrapping up so much if it in so few players. You guys often go at us for exactly that, and I think it's never hurt Shero till this season. Sure everyone has to deal with it, but losing $6 mill in cap doesn't hurt as much when you don't have two guys making $9 mill a year. Not to mention a lot of injuries without LTIR.

 

Absolutely. But as I may have mentioned,... a gms job is to put the best players in place for his team. When ONE gm has 2 of the top 5 talents in the world and had zero to do with acquiring them, his job has become a lot easier than the gm who has no top 20 players. The problem with having them handed to you is fitting them under the cap, along with everyone else. But I'd guess if you asked the other 29 gms if they'd like to have that problem, they'd take it.

 

 And when you take those two players out of his body of work and see what's left, I really don't see Mr. Shero having done anything that would make me say "Wow, what a great gm". Or that would make me say "Wow, what a terrible gm". Not big picture-wise. He's done some good things, and some not-so-good.

[murraycraven]

Absolutely. But as I may have mentioned,... a gms job is to put the best players in place for his team. When ONE gm has 2 of the top 5 talents in the world and had zero to do with acquiring them, his job has become a lot easier than the gm who has no top 20 players. The problem with having them handed to you is fitting them under the cap, along with everyone else. But I'd guess if you asked the other 29 gms if they'd like to have that problem, they'd take it.

 

 And when you take those two players out of his body of work and see what's left, I really don't see Mr. Shero having done anything that would make me say "Wow, what a great gm". Or that would make me say "Wow, what a terrible gm". Not big picture-wise. He's done some good things, and some not-so-good.

 

 

This!  

 

I think the issue w/ the Pens really stems from development.   They traded picks and really gave up some future assets so they are pretty thin.   I read a stat this morning that is pretty telling:

 

no Pens draft pick since 2007 has score more than 15 goals w/ the Pens!

 

traded a 1st round pick Joe Morrow for Brendan Morrow who was nothing more than a loaner.  Another 1st rounder bennet was benched for Tanner Glass...   It is almost like the Pens are following the path of Bobby Clarke.   Trade everything and anyone for a chance to win now...  I dont think it works in the salary cap world.

[mojo1917]

This!  

 

I think the issue w/ the Pens really stems from development.   They traded picks and really gave up some future assets so they are pretty thin.   I read a stat this morning that is pretty telling:

 

no Pens draft pick since 2007 has score more than 15 goals w/ the Pens!

 

traded a 1st round pick Joe Morrow for Brendan Morrow who was nothing more than a loaner.  Another 1st rounder bennet was benched for Tanner Glass...   It is almost like the Pens are following the path of Bobby Clarke.   Trade everything and anyone for a chance to win now...  I dont think it works in the salary cap world.

Here's the thing for  me about the Pens and Shero, they are rightfully in go for it mode, they have 2 of the best players in the world, a top 10 defensman in their primes... now is the time to deal for specific needs at the deadline and hope it works out. So picks schmicks... win now with the big guns.

 

bill simmons wrote a piece that talks to the championship window for teams that should be great and somehow miss.  it has relevance to the Pens situation. Luck with injuries, the disease of me, all things that i think are in play with the pens.

http://grantland.com/features/simmons-oklahoma-city-thunder-nba-championship/

 

shero has made some seriously amazing trades, goligoski for Neal and Niskanen ... hello that's jedi mind **** there.  he's a good GM and he's trying to make the most of this window with his two /three best players.

[flyercanuck]

Here's the thing for  me about the Pens and Shero, they are rightfully in go for it mode, they have 2 of the best players in the world, a top 10 defensman in their primes... now is the time to deal for specific needs at the deadline and hope it works out. So picks schmicks... win now with the big guns.

 

OK...but for 5 years he's been trying this and his team has underperformed. He picked Letang and Maatta, both great choices. He has Pouliot and Harrington coming up, but right now they're prospects only. He's been a complete bust at drafting forwards.

 

bill simmons wrote a piece that talks to the championship window for teams that should be great and somehow miss.  it has relevance to the Pens situation. Luck with injuries, the disease of me, all things that i think are in play with the pens.

http://grantland.com/features/simmons-oklahoma-city-thunder-nba-championship/

 

 I couldn't read an entire article on basketball, but the Pens best players are entering their prime. They aren't well over 30. But the franchise has wasted 5 of the best years of two of the best players in the world to play as many playoff rounds as the rebuilding Flyers have played.

 

 

 

shero has made some seriously amazing trades, goligoski for Neal and Niskanen ... hello that's jedi mind **** there.  he's a good GM and he's trying to make the most of this window with his two /three best players.

 

Yes, people talk about Shero's amazing trades and always allude to Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen. Got any more? Well he got Kunitz as a throw in, right? The problem is Tangradi was supposed to be the cornerstone piece, and he busted. Kunitz only cost him a 5th overall pick that he'd inherited from his predecessor in Ryan Whitney. It's not a bad trade, but hardly earthshattering. He threw away 1st round pick Joe Morrow for weeks of Brendan Morrow. Ponikorovsky scored 3 whole goals when brought in in a trade for 2 players to be Malkins wingman. Hossa as a rental for Armstrong / Christianson/ and 2 firsts? That's a good trade if you win the cup. They didn't. Homer traded Nashvilles own first to them for Timonen and Hartnell. That's a steal in the Neal/Niskanen mold. And the Hossa deal got a shorter return than Homers Pronger deal. Most gms have made a great trade or two. But if the guy makes such great trades and is such a great gm and was also spotted 2 of the worlds greatest players, why isn't there back to back to back going on in Pittsburgh, instead of whahappen? yet again?

[mojo1917]

. He threw away 1st round pick Joe Morrow for weeks of Brendan Morrow. Ponikorovsky scored 3 whole goals when brought in in a trade for 2 players to be Malkins wingman. Hossa as a rental for Armstrong / Christianson/ and 2 firsts? That's a good trade if you win the cup. They didn't

 

And this is my point , this is what you do when you're in your window,  it doesn't last forever so you do what you can to maximize the results for the time it is open.

 

I think the things Shero has done haven't worked out, but i will say i was sweating a Pens team with Iginla and Morrow going into the playoffs...on paper that seems like a juggernaut.. 

 

I think the problem is Crosby, I said it in another thread, I think since he's won a title a person can't come into that team and be any kind of effective leader because 87 has won the strap, he knows what it takes. I also think it is why a lot of the stronger locker room guys don't stick around after the rental period.

[flyercanuck]

@mojo1917

 

 Going for it is fine. If your trades work out. If they don't, they weren't all that great. When you trade 1st round picks or youth for rentals, it rarely works in your favour. Don't we know.

[B21]

Agreed.  I'm not sure I like when a GM loses his job for giving it one more go with a coach.   I know that's nothing new, but it's kind of crumby.

 

All about expectations, my friend.  The fact the the Pens even considered it after making the ECF is all you need to look at. 

[B21]

My comment about cap management was in direct response to Polaris complaining about having to use AHL calibre players...everyone is against the same cap. If you don't manage it properly, that's what happens. I've seen Holmgren have to send better players down to the AHL (Giroux) because he screwed up on the cap. And he was crucified on here for it. Did Fleury earn his $5 million a year over the last 5 seasons?

 

Yes - there was a Cup in there somewhere I recall.

 

 

Is James Neal worth 5 Million a year if you have to move Malkin onto Crosbys line?

 

That move was to jump start Crosby. Nothing to do with Neal.

 

Scuderi?

 

Not with the $3.375 million he's making. No. That's 1...which I have mentioned repeatedly.

 

Stepniak?

 

Couln't even tell you what he's making. Rental. Nothing to see here.  Cost a 3rd round pick.

 

Well all have overpaid players. The difference is we admit it. You guys have Shero up on this pedestal, and he's just not that great. Again, take those two superstars off your team and what do you have after 8 years? Letang for $7 million a year? Beau Bennett. Kunitz and Dupuis at 34 and 35? James (I'm useless without Malkin and just plain dirty with him) Neal. I just don't see greatness there. You have some good pieces. Where's the great that he brought in???

 

Like you said - he inherited the greatness.  It's been his job to build around it.  And again - greatness costs.  Kunitz and Dupuis are stillgood NHL players.  Really good when they are playing with Crosby. Kunitz cost a them an average defenceman. Dupuis cost them nothin. A throw in.  How are Kunitz and Dupuis negatives on Shero's resume? Neal is a PPG player in his 3 full seasons with the Pens. OK - .99.  Making $5,000,000 per.  How many PPG players over the past 3 seasons are making less?  Remind me...was it Neal or Niskanen (+/- leader among defencemen this year) who was the "throw in" in the Goligoski deal?

 

In all the posts I've made about Shero, there's ONE where i said (by mistake) that he's not that good (meant not that great) and all the other times I said he's a good, not great gm. I stand by that. Again, going back to Holmgren, (who deserved to go IMO) put Malkin and Crosby on his team. Does he look like a better gm? He likely beats Chicago with them, no?

 

Good. Not great. We agree.

 

But we don't have him on a pedestal, either.  I don't consider him to be on the same leve as the Bowmans and Lombardis and the Hollands and the Chiarellis. 

 

But he sure is a notch just below them.

 

Right now, the Pens are not the Flyers. You are rebuilding. We are built.  Draft picks that may/may not pan out in 3-4 years mean a lot more to you than us.  The established NHLers that we trade our picks for mean more to us NOW than what those picks may/may not be 3-4 years from now.

[B21]

And this is my point , this is what you do when you're in your window,  it doesn't last forever so you do what you can to maximize the results for the time it is open.

 

I think the things Shero has done haven't worked out, but i will say i was sweating a Pens team with Iginla and Morrow going into the playoffs...on paper that seems like a juggernaut.. 

 

I think the problem is Crosby, I said it in another thread, I think since he's won a title a person can't come into that team and be any kind of effective leader because 87 has won the strap, he knows what it takes. I also think it is why a lot of the stronger locker room guys don't stick around after the rental period.

 

Strong locker room guys...like Bill Guerin and Gary Roberts?    

 

Hossa went for the $. 

 

They didn't try to keep Morrow.

 

Iginla is a good example - just didn't mesh.

 

I doubt there was much effort to keep the rest of the rentals over the year.

[mojo1917]

Strong locker room guys...like Bill Guerin and Gary Roberts?    

 

Hossa went for the $. 

 

They didn't try to keep Morrow.

 

Iginla is a good example - just didn't mesh.

 

I doubt there was much effort to keep the rest of the rentals over the year.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here...  yes, exactly like Guerin and Roberts, i believe I have said as much all over this site in various ways.

 

But you're making sandwiches with the bread and meat i'm laying down... now is the time for your team.  Rejean is working hard to find the pieces to win with 87 and 71.  If the window closes with fewer cups than everyone "expects" it won't be for lack of trying on Shero's part.  Things just haven't "worked out"...winning that damn cup aint easy... a lot like pimpin' actually.

[flyercanuck]

Yes - there was a Cup in there somewhere I recall.

 

Not over the last 5 there wasn't.

 

That move was to jump start Crosby. Nothing to do with Neal.

 

So 2 goals in 14 playoff games is acceptable for a $5 million player Of course he also throws in the stupid penalties, so he's got that going for hi

 

 

 

Like you said - he inherited the greatness.  It's been his job to build around it.  And again - greatness costs.  Kunitz and Dupuis are stillgood NHL players.  Really good when they are playing with Crosby. Kunitz cost a them an average defenceman. Dupuis cost them nothin. A throw in.  How are Kunitz and Dupuis negatives on Shero's resume? Neal is a PPG player in his 3 full seasons with the Pens. OK - .99.  Making $5,000,000 per.  How many PPG players over the past 3 seasons are making less?  Remind me...was it Neal or Niskanen (+/- leader among defencemen this year) who was the "throw in" in the Goligoski deal?

 

Kunitz and Dupuis are good, yet 34 and 35 years old. Replacements? Ooops. Hey I'm fine with that if you guys are. Neals a productive rat...if he's got Malkin feeding him. Otherwise his game goes south. Regular season or playoffs. Then he just becomes another dirty player. And yes the Goligoski deal, the "go to" when Shero's greatness is being discussed.  Ahh, remember when Holmgren got Hartnell AND Timonen for Nashvilles 1st? Was that great or what? (see what I did there?)

 

 

Good. Not great. We agree.

 

But we don't have him on a pedestal, either.  I don't consider him to be on the same leve as the Bowmans and Lombardis and the Hollands and the Chiarellis. 

 

But he sure is a notch just below them.

 

So was Holmgren. Glad he's gone.

 

Right now, the Pens are not the Flyers. You are rebuilding. We are built.  Draft picks that may/may not pan out in 3-4 years mean a lot more to you than us.  The established NHLers that we trade our picks for mean more to us NOW than what those picks may/may not be 3-4 years from now.

 

We are rebuilding. 9 playoff rounds over 5 years. You are built.  9 playoff rounds over 5 years.  Sounds good to me.

[B21]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here...  yes, exactly like Guerin and Roberts, i believe I have said as much all over this site in various ways.

 

But you're making sandwiches with the bread and meat i'm laying down... now is the time for your team.  Rejean is working hard to find the pieces to win with 87 and 71.  If the window closes with fewer cups than everyone "expects" it won't be for lack of trying on Shero's part.  Things just haven't "worked out"...winning that damn cup aint easy... a lot like pimpin' actually.

 

Was responding to this....

 

I also think it is why a lot of the stronger locker room guys don't stick around after the rental period.

 

Two of the three strongest locker room guys did stick around.

 

No biggie.

[B21]

@flyercanuck

Yes - there was a Cup in there somewhere I recall.

 

Not over the last 5 there wasn't.

 

 

So? That Fleury him overpaid?  Enough with the 20/20 hindsight on Fleury.  He signed that deal after a monster playoff run to the ECF. Won a Cup the following year.  He got paid what you get paid when you do that.  Holding his playoff failures since then against Shero is absurd.  No one questioned that deal at the time or even now…not overpaid.

 

That move was to jump start Crosby. Nothing to do with Neal.

 

So 2 goals in 14 playoff games is acceptable for a $5 million player Of course he also throws in the stupid penalties, so he's got that going for him.

 

Not arguing he had a bad post season. Still signed for less than what he would get on the open market.  Nitpicking again.  Lookup the contracts for the other players averaging a PPG over the last 3 seasons.  See what they are making?

 

Like you said - he inherited the greatness.  It's been his job to build around it.  And again - greatness costs.  Kunitz and Dupuis are stillgood NHL players.  Really good when they are playing with Crosby. Kunitz cost a them an average defenceman. Dupuis cost them nothin. A throw in.  How are Kunitz and Dupuis negatives on Shero's resume? Neal is a PPG player in his 3 full seasons with the Pens. OK - .99.  Making $5,000,000 per.  How many PPG players over the past 3 seasons are making less?  Remind me...was it Neal or Niskanen (+/- leader among defencemen this year) who was the "throw in" in the Goligoski deal?

 

Kunitz and Dupuis are good, yet 34 and 35 years old. Replacements? Ooops. Hey I'm fine with that if you guys are. Neals a productive rat...if he's got Malkin feeding him. Otherwise his game goes south. Regular season or playoffs. Then he just becomes another dirty player. And yes the Goligoski deal, the "go to" when Shero's greatness is being discussed.  Ahh, remember when Holmgren got Hartnell AND Timonen for Nashvilles 1st? Was that great or what? (see what I did there?)

 

 

Did I miss something? Has either (Kunitz or Dupuis) shown any signed of slowing down? Who cares if Neal needs Malkin.  Are they line mates?  Is Neal productive playing with Malkin?  Then that’s all the matters.

 

But we don't have him on a pedestal, either.  I don't consider him to be on the same level as the Bowmans and Lombardis and the Hollands and the Chiarellis. 

 

But he sure is a notch just below them.

 

So was Holmgren. Glad he's gone. 

 

 

Holmgren was quite a few notches below all of them.  Shero has nothing on his resume remotely close to Bryzaster, Pronger (not knowing the 35+ rule), VLC, Hartnell (good trade – horrid contract) or Briere.  Did the Pens have to buyout anyone?  Did Shero trade away a goalie who won a Vezina the following year? See what I did there?  

 

Right now, the Pens are not the Flyers. You are rebuilding. We are built.  Draft picks that may/may not pan out in 3-4 years mean a lot more to you than us.  The established NHLers that we trade our picks for mean more to us NOW than what those picks may/may not be 3-4 years from now.

 

We are rebuilding. 9 playoff rounds over 5 years. You are built.  9 playoff rounds over 5 years.  Sounds good to me.

 

 

Selective analysis there.  I can play that game, too.  Playoff series in the last 3 years? Pens 7. Flyers 3.   In that 3 years span you missed the playoffs once and traded away your core players.  If that’s not at least a partial rebuild I don’t know what is.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Well. FWIW, I think today's announcement settles the Shero debate. For better/worse, right/wrong.

When your boss doesn't think you did a good enough job to keep it, that pretty much trumps everything.

[flyercanuck]

@flyercanuck

 

So? That Fleury him overpaid?  Enough with the 20/20 hindsight on Fleury.  He signed that deal after a monster playoff run to the ECF. Won a Cup the following year.  He got paid what you get paid when you do that.  Holding his playoff failures since then against Shero is absurd.  No one questioned that deal at the time or even now…not overpaid.

 

 

Not arguing he had a bad post season. Still signed for less than what he would get on the open market.  Nitpicking again.  Lookup the contracts for the other players averaging a PPG over the last 3 seasons.  See what they are making?

 

 

Did I miss something? Has either (Kunitz or Dupuis) shown any signed of slowing down? Who cares if Neal needs Malkin.  Are they line mates?  Is Neal productive playing with Malkin?  Then that’s all the matters.

 

 

Holmgren was quite a few notches below all of them.  Shero has nothing on his resume remotely close to Bryzaster, Pronger (not knowing the 35+ rule), VLC, Hartnell (good trade – horrid contract) or Briere.  Did the Pens have to buyout anyone?  Did Shero trade away a goalie who won a Vezina the following year? See what I did there?  

 

 

Selective analysis there.  I can play that game, too.  Playoff series in the last 3 years? Pens 7. Flyers 3.   In that 3 years span you missed the playoffs once and traded away your core players.  If that’s not at least a partial rebuild I don’t know what is.

 

 Hey, apparently the ownership agrees with me.

[B21]

Well. FWIW, I think today's announcement settles the Shero debate. For better/worse, right/wrong.

When your boss doesn't think you did a good enough job to keep it, that pretty much trumps everything.

 

Yeah but Homgren sucks and he got promoted. 

[B21]

 Hey, apparently the ownership agrees with me.

 

Meh.  If he worked in Philly he'd be the prez-o-dent!

[DaGreatGazoo]

Yeah but Homgren sucks and he got promoted. 

 

I'm not in the Shero sucks camp.  Heck, if I had the desire, I can find posts from a year-18 months ago, where EVERYONE was praising him.  Flyers fans included.

 

My point was simply, someone didn't think he did a good enough job...regardless of what we think.  IMO...DFB shouda been gone.  But what do I know...

[flyercanuck]

Yeah but Homgren sucks and he got promoted. 

 

 And thank God for that!

 

 Like I said, just having fun with you guys...you had your fun with us and Homer.

[B21]

 And thank God for that!

 

 Like I said, just having fun with you guys...you had your fun with us and Homer.

 

Oh I know.  Don't think for a second that 1) I'm not enjoying this and 2) am mad at you. :wub:  :wub:

[Polaris922]

Shero did very well by us, and anyone unable to see that is just choosing not to. . I would really like to hear Lemieux's thoughts on this. What was it they were looking at Shero for? As stated by others in this thread, he's been in go for it mode all along, and won it once. We all know its not easy, and this year in particular the lower cap made trade deadline deals a disaster for many teams. I'd really like to know what they were unhappy with besides the general "we want a Cup" by line.