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Early Rumors - Bylsma AND Shero OUT


B21

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Sorry to the Penguins fans, but your biggest problem is not your coach or your GM.   Your problem is your captain.

 

He is constitutionally unable to lead a team through adversity.  Things go against him and he buckles and becomes petulant and cancerous.  He's not as bad as Ovechkin, but the similarities are growing.

 

I wrote this in another thread as well, but 2008 and 2009 were about the veterans in the room that kept that team focused and on task and got in the kids' faces when they weren't on board.  This captain does not do that.  He sulks. He shakes his head.  He bickers with himself, with his coach, with the refs, etc.   and becomes unfocused and his team follows suit.

 

I don't care who you bring in as coach.  If you don't fix the captain problem you're going to have the same problem as the Caps.  Actually, you already do.

 

 

Though I agree Crosby has been struggling, I don't think he's Ovechkin.  He held his composure VERY well this year.  Wasn't until the sticking incident with Moore that we saw him take a bad penalty and in fairness the officiating dropped the ball big time on that one.  Frustrations with losing and a boatload of abuse, particularly to his head finally built up to a 2 minute penalty.  I can spot him that.  NOBODY was defending him but the occasional Kunitz hit.  Not good enough, and Lemieux is pissed about it.  

 

As I said in another thread Crosby deserves credit for his composure.  I don't think Crosby buckles or becomes petulant.  The other players on the squad have always spoken well of his focus and leadership in the locker room and on the ice.  Maybe some of them do get tired of his yapping, but in all honesty, I don't see it as being any more than any other captains out there.  I've watched Getzlaf, Giroux,, Brown, Richards... all the team captains in the playoffs this year, and there's a lot of jawing.  I also watched Crosby skate away from what should have been clear penalties for obstructing him without opening his mouth.  The cameras are on him more than any other player, so you just see him "captaining" more than you see with many others.  

 

I agree old vets have helped this squad.  Crosby is only 26 though so there's still room to improve.  Maybe that loses some of the impact?  I dunno.  But I can tell you true leaders always lead by example, and Crosby's effort in the Bruins series, the Jackets series, and most of the Rangers series were beyond reproach, despite his lack of scoring.  

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I think that would be really difficult to swallow for me as well.  I've always been a Flyer fan, but certain hires (Torts is a great example) would definitely push the ability to cheer.

 

A non-hockey example for me was that I am a lifelong Eagles fan.   Then they signed Michael Vick.  I didn't start cheering for another team, but I really didn't cheer for the Eagles for several years.  I just kind of numbly watched non-Eagles games.

 

I got that impression from a lot of my friends who are Eagles fans. There aren't too many that would test my allegiance but Tortsie is one of them.

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Though I agree Crosby has been struggling, I don't think he's Ovechkin.  He held his composure VERY well this year.  Wasn't until the sticking incident with Moore that we saw him take a bad penalty and in fairness the officiating dropped the ball big time on that one.  Frustrations with losing and a boatload of abuse, particularly to his head finally built up to a 2 minute penalty.  I can spot him that.  NOBODY was defending him but the occasional Kunitz hit.  Not good enough, and Lemieux is pissed about it.  

 

As I said in another thread Crosby deserves credit for his composure.  I don't think Crosby buckles or becomes petulant.  The other players on the squad have always spoken well of his focus and leadership in the locker room and on the ice.  Maybe some of them do get tired of his yapping, but in all honesty, I don't see it as being any more than any other captains out there.  I've watched Getzlaf, Giroux,, Brown, Richards... all the team captains in the playoffs this year, and there's a lot of jawing.  I also watched Crosby skate away from what should have been clear penalties for obstructing him without opening his mouth.  The cameras are on him more than any other player, so you just see him "captaining" more than you see with many others.  

 

I agree old vets have helped this squad.  Crosby is only 26 though so there's still room to improve.  Maybe that loses some of the impact?  I dunno.  But I can tell you true leaders always lead by example, and Crosby's effort in the Bruins series, the Jackets series, and most of the Rangers series were beyond reproach, despite his lack of scoring.  

 

Honestly - he didn't really "break" (meaning let it all get to him) until Game 6 against the Rangers. And I give him credit for lasting that long.  It's not his composure that was the issue.  It was his play and inability to lead his team.

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Crosby's effort in the Bruins series, the Jackets series, and most of the Rangers series were beyond reproach, despite his lack of scoring.

 

Sorry, but really disagree.  Effort was average and attitude was horrible.  Especially vs. Bruins and Rangers.  And not great last year against the Isles, either.

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Some of the statements in that article lead me to believe that there may not BE a coach for this group. Practices were too long? Too many meetings? Not "fun?" Define "harsh criticism." That's tough to know whether it's on the coach or the player. Was it in public or private? Was it warranted? Was the player ignoring the coach in front of teammates and undermining him?

 

It's easy to say a coach lost the locker room, but if the coach lost the locker room because of the attitudes of his players (not saying it was, but there seems to be an undertone in the article that suggests it's possible), that's NOT an easy fix.

 

 

That ais definitely not an easy mix...  great post.

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Sorry, but really disagree. Effort was average and attitude was horrible. Especially vs. Bruins and Rangers. And not great last year against the Isles, either.

I thought he skated incredibly hard against the Bruins last year. Actually felt he tried harder there than this season. This season he was everywhere UNTIL game 5. He seemed slow and out of sync again game 5. Had me wondering about his first full season in awhile + Olympics may have been too much to ask. Game 6... Part time effort. Game 7 he was a beast but got flocked to every time he touched the puck.

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Sorry, but really disagree.  Effort was average and attitude was horrible.  Especially vs. Bruins and Rangers.  And not great last year against the Isles, either.

 

 

Totally agree Rux...  Hasn't this been the issue for a while now?  Great in the regular season and come up small in the playoffs?

 

If you are not wearing the Black and Gold blinders I dont understand how anyone can argue that Crosby is being a good leader on the ice.   Watch his body language - it is plain as day.   I think the petulant and priveleged attitude that Crosby seems to harbor has spread through the Team.   If the rumors are true and they was complaints of meeting, long practice, etc... this Team is in for a tough ride b/c a Coaching change will only fix that temporarily.  

 

Shero will most likely stay, Dapper Dan will get the shaft and Crosby will continue to run the Team.   It is only a matter of time until the next Coach tries too hard and the players complain.  

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Just curious. I notice a lot of people have strong opinions on what it means to be a bad captain.

What does it look like to be a good captain? What are the traits?

Jean Luc Picard

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Just curious. I notice a lot of people have strong opinions on what it means to be a bad captain.

What does it look like to be a good captain? What are the traits?

Brilliant question. It's a lot easier to point out bad things. And it's easier, too, to describe the good captain by things he DOESN'T do.

First, a captain leads by example. A good captain is aware of this so avoids counter productive or destructive behavior such as repeatedly shaking ones head in disgust, arguing with his coach in the bench, slamming sticks around, etc.

The good captain is a player first and foremost but is keenly aware that he is also a company man. He, therefore, publicly buys into what the program is and sells it by both word and example to his teammates.

When the chips are down, the good captain remains positive and refuses to be seen as beaten or frustrated. He pushes his teammates, by word and example, to follow suit.

A good captain is consistent. He does not allow his personal lows to be low enough to become the example that is followed.

A good captain gets results both personally and from his team. For him personally, this should be in line with his skill set and should rise under pressure. Not all captains are offensive juggernauts so results don't have to mean goals. If the captain is a physical player who kills penalties and is tasked with sitting down the other team, then that's where his results need to be. And they should at least meet if not exceed his regular season performance. If the captain is a Hart Trophy winner and offense IS his thing, then clearly that's where the results need to be.

The good capitan had to be the engine that could and not a passenger. He cannot spend large swaths of time with a facial expression and body language that says "this sucks!"

Some of this may sound like it's not fair. I'm not sure why since the captain accepted the C. You don't want to lead, don't take a letter.

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@brelic

 

a good captain...

well I think a good captain sets an example and holds himself and his teammates accountable to the crest on the front.

It doesn't mean being weak and letting people take liberties with you, but a good captain makes the those people pay on the score sheet and with his play in general. taking the hit to make the clear in a 6 on 5, winning a board battle against two guys.

 

I don't see this from Sidney in the playoffs.  I have stated numerous times here that I think this is a result of his concussions (brain injury) and the part of his brain that would tell his amygdala  to calm the hell down doesn't work right, so he's always in fight or flight mode when he's challenged physically.  

 

he missed a whole year of playing because of his back to back brain injuries, I don't think his poor leadership qualities are all his fault, i think his brain is broken... it is one thing to talk to the press about taking the high road yada yada an hour after an incident but in the moment i think he's all reptilian brain and that is not helpful to anyone.t

 

Edit: great post @ruxpin

Edited by mojo1917
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@ruxpin

@mojo1917

 

Good stuff, both of you.

 

What I'm getting from your posts is that it's a nebulous definition, at best, which has a lot of unquantifiable attributes. 

 

I get why Ovenchicken would be considered a bad captain. He's demonstrated over and over that he's a selfish player that is only really concerned with 1/3 of the ice surface.

 

I'm just not sure I see why Crosby would be considered a bad captain. He's done a lot of the things you mention in your post. Probably not all the time, and probably not every year, but he has many of those attributes. Is he the best captain ever? No. Is he a decent captain? I would say so. 

 

Along the same lines, name one player you consider an excellent captain, and one you consider a terrible one.

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Just curious. I notice a lot of people have strong opinions on what it means to be a bad captain.

 

What does it look like to be a good captain? What are the traits? 

 

When I think of "great captains" (in a hockey context) I think Mark Messier, Joe Sakic and, to a lesser extent, Rod Brind'Amour and even Dave Andreychuk.

 

Guys who lead by example even if they aren't "the best player" on the team. Guys who don't let things get to them, don't lose their composure. Don't take bad retaliatory penalties.

 

Guys who, in general, are the eye of the storm - calm and collected while the world spins wildly around them. They are the face of the franchise. The rock upon which successful teams are built.

 

Guys that other players want to win for. Teemu Selanne on Team Finland this year.

 

I think Toews has some of these qualities, when discussing "younger" players. I think Richards could have been that had he not been thrown into the situation too early (if he had, for example, learned from a Timonen and then a Pronger before being thrust into the limelight).

 

Jean Luc Picard

 

Jack Sparrow :ph34r:

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Brilliant question. It's a lot easier to point out bad things. And it's easier, too, to describe the good captain by things he DOESN'T do.

First, a captain leads by example. A good captain is aware of this so avoids counter productive or destructive behavior such as repeatedly shaking ones head in disgust, arguing with his coach in the bench, slamming sticks around, etc.

The good captain is a player first and foremost but is keenly aware that he is also a company man. He, therefore, publicly buys into what the program is and sells it by both word and example to his teammates.

When the chips are down, the good captain remains positive and refuses to be seen as beaten or frustrated. He pushes his teammates, by word and example, to follow suit.

A good captain is consistent. He does not allow his personal lows to be low enough to become the example that is followed.

A good captain gets results both personally and from his team. For him personally, this should be in line with his skill set and should rise under pressure. Not all captains are offensive juggernauts so results don't have to mean goals. If the captain is a physical player who kills penalties and is tasked with sitting down the other team, then that's where his results need to be. And they should at least meet if not exceed his regular season performance. If the captain is a Hart Trophy winner and offense IS his thing, then clearly that's where the results need to be.

The good capitan had to be the engine that could and not a passenger. He cannot spend large swaths of time with a facial expression and body language that says "this sucks!"

Some of this may sound like it's not fair. I'm not sure why since the captain accepted the C. You don't want to lead, don't take a letter.

 

That's two great posts in a span of less than 24 hours. I officially revoke your King of Smarm shoulder patch. Oh, and you forgot "must be toothless".

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That's two great posts in a span of less than 24 hours. I officially revoke your King of Smarm shoulder patch. Oh, and you forgot "must be toothless".

LOL thanks. Sadly, I already forget what the other one would be

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Babcock expressed an interest in coaching the Penguins and it was being discussed.  

 

Well, living in Pittsburgh has certainly have to be better than living in Detroit (sorry Jammer). 

 

Joking aside, if I am Babcock- other than wanting a change of scenery, why go anywhere else? He is carte blanche there and I think to a man (and woman) on this board, we have to agree that the ownership / scouting etc. is top notch there. 

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First off, the basis for this thread is an article from Rob "I can say anything that may or may not have any basis in truth and call it fact" Rossi, so take anything comments in this article that mentions "Inside Sources" and "Sources close to the Penguins" as possible fiction.

 

Really, "inside sources" tell him Bylsma will be fired? EVERYONE in the hockey universe, including Bylsma, have said he's probably gone if he lost this series.   His "Source inside the Penguins" may well have been the lady cleaning the locker room for this precious gem.  I know that its hard to listen to us Pens fans, but we've been asking for him to be fired for two years, he's great at overall design, he's awful at adjustments. Being patient and "getting to our game" is not an adjustment when things are not going well.

 

Shero?   Who knows there.   His drafts have actually built up alot of talent on defense for the Pens, the problem is he hasn't had the same luck at forward.  His downfall could be his unwavering faith in DFB.

 

As for the rest? Players not liking the long meetings or practices? I'm not sure about that, how come we've never heard about that before? This sounds like justifications for getting rid of him in stead of getting rid of players, which again hasn't had any basis of fact before this.

 

The criticism of Crosby and Malkin, and their play on the ice,  is completely justified.  They're the star players, they need to produce when the game is on the line.   The Pens scored 3 goals in the last three games against the Rags, Unacceptable. Boston series last year, same thing.   They simple have not figured out how to adjust to the playoffs, and are eliminated from the game.  Some of this we Pens fans have blamed on coaching, and the lack of adjustments that are made, but in the end, it comes down to the players.   Crosby admitted as much in interviews after elimination, accepting the blame and putting this on the Players, not the coach.

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@nossagog

 

 I thought Bylsma should have been shown the door after the Bruins humiliated the Pens last year. As a Canadian, I cracked a smile when he was announced as Team USAs coach. As a Flyer fan I hope he gets extended.

 

 B-21, Polaris and I have had a spirited discussion over Sheros finest moments.His drafts? I actually was giving him credit for drafting Letang, which he didn't. His EIGHT drafts have brought the Pens Beau Bennett, Simon Despres and Olli Maatta. That may be the worst drafting this side of the Vancouver Canucks.Trading the guy he took over Jonathan Toews also has brought Pouliot as a good prospect. That is one impressive haul for almost a decade of work.

 

 Crosby and Malkin are due criticism and needed to produce more. And to compound the problem,their wingers aren't effective unless they are. Neal is basically reduced to a lost boy taking dumb penalties without Malkin making him look good.The 3rd and 4th lines are comprised of one good player. The defence is too soft IMO. Fleury wasn't the problem this year, but in 13 playoff games he had a save percentages of .850, .889,.889,.867,.882,.897,.900 The last 4 are the last 4 games. Ouch.

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@nossagog

 

 I thought Bylsma should have been shown the door after the Bruins humiliated the Pens last year. As a Canadian, I cracked a smile when he was announced as Team USAs coach. As a Flyer fan I hope he gets extended.

 

 

I laughed too, and I'm in the US. Then again, I was hoping for all of the pro teams to fail.

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