With Gus gone is there more of a push to resign Kimmo?

[aziz]

Lauridsen would be cheaper, he's more mobile and has at least a bit more skill handling the puck. Same would be true of Alt only more so. If you're replacing Grossman I don't think you want a completely different skill set. You want someone who can do what Grossman does (defensive d-man) but also brings at least a little more to the table.

Understood. I don't remember him at all, so you guys have the better info on him than I do. All the scouting I've seen suggest improving his skating is a make or break thing as regards sticking in the NHL... Whereas Grossmann had already stuck. Which sounds to me like Grossmann to date has had the better feet.

Again, though, me interpreting year old scouting reports versus your eyes-on, I defer.

[JackStraw]

@aziz - to be honest I'm higher on Alt than Lauridsen. Grossman is a known quantity, lead feet, no appreciable ability to handle the puck, but defensively solid close to his own goal. If Lauridsen can be that consistently (defensively solid) then anything else he brings is a plus. Alt is more mobile than either of the other two, and is competent with the puck. Seems like a smart player too, at least from watching him on the Phantoms. Whether he can make it in the NHL obviously remains to be seen but I think he has the tools.

[OccamsRazor]

Again, though, me interpreting year old scouting reports versus your eyes-on, I defer.

 

Well i'll just say this that shortened season I thought Luke looked damn good with him almost instant chemistry Luke played the right and Ollie on the left...two huge Dmen Twin towers on the back end guys i thought looked good going against the Lucic type power forwards of this league.

 

And mind you it was only 15 games but he had a nice quick release i thought that more than anything shocked me it was actually on net!!! And yes he may need to work on his skating but many do his age i guess.

 

But me not claiming to be no skating expert i thought it was adequate and he could skate circles around Gill.

 

I'm also not claiming when he is inserted he will never look back and and it's his job forever or a lock by any means....i like many would like more games to make that fair assessment. Training camp and preseason may be sufficient....or the first week or two of the regular season by then you will know. 

 

And i think that is reasonable. Then if he can't cut it i would venture he may follow the route of Gus.......off to the KHL.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

If Kimmo gives the Flyers a discount (2 to 2.5 million a year), why not use him on the third pairing with Schenn and then sign a guy like Nikitin to play with Coburn? A second pairing of MacDonald and Streit can be left in tact.

[radoran]

If Kimmo gives the Flyers a discount (2 to 2.5 million a year), why not use him on the third pairing with Schenn and then sign a guy like Nikitin to play with Coburn? A second pairing of MacDonald and Streit can be left in tact.

 

In a world where Andrew MacDonald is "worth" $5M, how is Kimmo Timonen a $2.5M player even at 39?

 

I'd be happy as heck to see him sign at that number, but just don't see it happening.

 

A lot depends on the cap.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

In a world where Andrew MacDonald is "worth" $5M, how is Kimmo Timonen a $2.5M player even at 39?

 

I'd be happy as heck to see him sign at that number, but just don't see it happening.

 

A lot depends on the cap.

 

Oh, I get what you're saying with regards to Andrew MacDonald and his cost. At the same time, MacDonald is going to turn 29 and several teams were prepared to bid on him in the off season. He was going to get a big deal no matter what. Did the Flyers overpay? Yep, but such is the price, especially when the position that MacDonald plays is a premium on the open market.

 

As for Kimmo, you answered your question. He's 39. He's not getting anywhere close to 4 or 5 million bucks a year from any team. At this time, the salary cap is actually starting to do it's job and we're going to start seeing trends in which older players are going to get deals that are worth less than anticipated. I think Kimmo falls into that category. As well, he's not the heavy minute logging defenseman anymore that he used to be. He's a 17 to 19 minute a night guy now where he's going to see most of his time on the Power Play. I expect that he'll start seeing less time at even strength and penalty killing to keep him in one piece for when the playoffs start.

 

I think Kimmo knows that he's not going to get a big contract from the Flyers and I don't think other teams will line up to pay him a boat load either. Now, I love Kimmo and I really think he's been the best defenseman this club has seen since Eric Desjardins (who was probably the second best defenseman in franchise history behind Mark Howe). However, Kimmo has definitely slowed down in age and while he's a great warrior on the ice, he's not the same player he was five years ago and his decline really became noticeable this year. That's why I'm pretty confident he's going to re-sign for one more year for a lot less than what people are anticipating.

[radoran]

He's not getting anywhere close to 4 or 5 million bucks a year from any team.

 

We'll see... One thing working for that theory is that Hextall replaced Homer.

[aziz]

As for Kimmo, you answered your question. He's 39. He's not getting anywhere close to 4 or 5 million bucks a year from any team. At this time, the salary cap is actually starting to do it's job and we're going to start seeing trends in which older players are going to get deals that are worth less than anticipated. I think Kimmo falls into that category.

 

also, as a 35+ deal, it could be bonus heavy.  small salary, small initial cap hit, large bonus structure that the bonus cushion can absorb.

[OccamsRazor]

Again, though, me interpreting year old scouting reports versus your eyes-on, I defer.

 

A word more professional view....Meltzer this morning.

 

Danish defenseman Oliver Lauridsen, who has now played three full pro seasons and is 25 years old, has reached the now-or-never stage of his candidacy for an NHL job. He figures to get a look as a candidate for the Flyers' seventh defenseman spot next season.

 

 http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-Meltzer/Meltzers-Musings-Canada-and-USA-Ousted-at-Worlds-Sleepers-in-System/45/60203

 

So i agree he will be given every opportunity this year to seize that spot if not....he will be following Gus i believe to the KHL.

 

Like Jack said he'll have tough competeion from Alt who is the better all around Dman.

 

May the best man win.

[Samifan]

I just hope Hextall realizes that the Flyers should be in the driver's seat on whether or not Kimmo returns. Hextall needs to set the salary ($2-2.5 mil max) and make it extremely clear he will be on the top pair and will be on the second PP unit next season.

[Vanflyer]

Amac/Coburn

Kimmo/Schenn

 

Hey OR: I don't see Amac as a 1/2 pairing guy. Additionally, I think Amac makes Schenn better. I would keep that pairing. Truthfully, it has less to do with pairing v. who do you want the tandem to play against. The pairing has more to do with who does "X" compliment / play well with "Y".

 

The biggest thing for Kimmo is how do you get his minutes down so he can sustain. Couburn is in his prime and should chew up big minutes. Kimmo can't handle that. MacD / Schenn can, but I am not sure that skill set of each is worthy of it. There is 60 minutes of ice time to be chewed up between three sets of dmen with a rotating 7th. You need one of those pairs ("top pairing to) to eat 23-24 of those minutes, your second pairing 19 -21 minutes and your last the remainder (15-17). 

 

Lastly, I am not so sure its about minutes per game as much as games. If I was GM, I would significantly consider re-signing Kimmo at a reasonable price 4.5m. Let him stay status quo with tandem, but figure out how to give him more days off so he can endure the grind of the regular season. But that is the rub, who do I play in his place when he is resting that can bring top level skill set while having a "fill in" role? 

Edited May 24, 2014 by Vanflyer

[Vanflyer]

Hextall needs to set the salary ($2-2.5 mil max) and make it extremely clear he will be on the top pair and will be on the second PP unit next season.

 

So, 2-2.5M is what top pairing / 2nd PP unit d-men make these days?? 

 

Seriously, if that is where he is going to play, 4-4.5 is what he should get paid. Do a 1 year contract at a time deal. 

[Vanflyer]

As well, he's not the heavy minute logging defenseman anymore that he used to be. He's a 17 to 19 minute a night guy now where he's going to see most of his time on the Power Play. I expect that he'll start seeing less time at even strength and penalty killing to keep him in one piece for when the playoffs start.

 

No flyer d-man logs "big minutes". Not Shea Weber / Doughty / Keith / Suter type minutes. Kimmo played 20:19 minutes a game during the regular season. The top TOI dman for the Flyers was Couburn at 22:26. In the playoffs, Kimmo played 20:11 minutes a game, with MacD leading the team at 22:36 minutes per game. 

 

You are correct regarding ES. Kimmo already sees less ES time. He plays 1/3 of the minutes I cited on PP / PK. I am not sure if that is by design or the fact that he is better than other players on special teams (short handed minutes are harder than even strength minutes). 

 

But to complete my thought regarding you post, if he plays those same minutes next year, there is no reason in the world why he should not get 4-4.5m. 6.5m, no. 4-4.5 yes. @Samifan suggested 2-2.5m was his value. If I open up negotiations with Kimmo and that is my initial offer, I say eff you and am gone. Many teams would pay 4m+ for Kimmo- even at age 39. He is finnish and they have a long history of longevity. He has lost half a step, but is extremely smart and extremely skilled. He is no Hal Gill / Grossman. 

[Samifan]

So, 2-2.5M is what top pairing / 2nd PP unit d-men make these days?? 

 

Seriously, if that is where he is going to play, 4-4.5 is what he should get paid. Do a 1 year contract at a time deal. 

 

I realize my post was low ball but its based on the fact that he will be 40 next season and cant do the things a 4-4.5 mil/season guy can do anymore. Plus I factored in a hometown discount in-lieu of a future front office position once he retires.

[OccamsRazor]

Hey OR: I don't see Amac as a 1/2 pairing guy. Additionally, I think Amac makes Schenn better. I would keep that pairing. Truthfully, it has less to do with pairing v. who do you want the tandem to play against. The pairing has more to do with who does "X" compliment / play well with "Y".

 

The biggest thing for Kimmo is how do you get his minutes down so he can sustain. Couburn is in his prime and should chew up big minutes. Kimmo can't handle that. MacD / Schenn can, but I am not sure that skill set of each is worthy of it. There is 60 minutes of ice time to be chewed up between three sets of dmen with a rotating 7th. You need one of those pairs ("top pairing to) to eat 23-24 of those minutes, your second pairing 19 -21 minutes and your last the remainder (15-17). 

 

Lastly, I am not so sure its about minutes per game as much as games. If I was GM, I would significantly consider re-signing Kimmo at a reasonable price 4.5m. Let him stay status quo with tandem, but figure out how to give him more days off so he can endure the grind of the regular season. But that is the rub, who do I play in his place when he is resting that can bring top level skill set while having a "fill in" role? 

 

 

That is fine i  expect Ollie or Alt to get a shot a the 6th spot then if they don't out right win it i want Ollie to be the 7th in a Gill/Gus type of role.

 

Return Alt to the Phantoms i don't want him sitting in the press box, plus he still has waiver eligibility.

 

He needs big minutes on the Phantoms, Ollie is pretty much ready for NHL time or he is headed out the door, so he can wait for his chance to play when Berube sees fit.

 

He'll also be 26 this season so he'll be ok fetching popcorn. If he can't find a spot now he'll never find one.

 

So if possible the D pairs could look like this (not written in stone and will be worked out in camp)

 

Streit/Coburn

Amac/Schenn

Kimmo/ free agent?/Alt

Ollie 

[jammer2]

Oliie is a better skater period than GrossmanN. I watched him very closely last year in his limited time and thought he looked much better then than him. I would have traded Gross then and just played Ollie but i'm not the GM.....and that would maybe then seem like Homer was admitting another mistake and good lord we know he don't like that.

 

 

 Agree 100% on this. Oliver needs to play...now. The organization has invested time and money into this kid, he's the most NHL ready of any of our prospects. I swear, if Oliver gets ignored again this year, I will snap. I think he has very good mobility for a 6'6 kid, and *if* he gets to play, I expect his mobility to get better as he becomes more comfortable.  He's more than some big plodding lerch type, he has some real upside as an all round d-man, and his offense could turn out to be a bit better than people are currently expecting. If this kid develops a mean streak, he is gonna be a bitch to play against......can't wait to see his career unfold.

 

 Agreed also on the PIM's. He will not need to fight as much with the Flyers as he had to with the Phantoms. It's not like he's leading the AHL in 2 min minor penalties or anything, like you said, most of his PIM's came from fighting majors, so I don't even consider his PIM's an issue at all.

[OccamsRazor]

He's more than some big plodding lerch type, he has some real upside as an all round d-man, and his offense could turn out to be a bit better than people are currently expecting.

 

Fro the game i watched Coburn could take some lesson from him on how to get shots through traffic on net he has a nice quick low to the ice release and i was amazed how many times it was dead on net....it is really under rated i think.

 

Everyone keeps talking about his skating which i don't claim to be an expert at but i did notice that when talking about Coots but i don't see it with him....sorry i just didn't see it.

 

I was more impressed that he has a big nice stride with full hip extension and didn't look like he was laboring to move.

 

He and Luke looked really comfortable together off the bat.

 

He didn't wander and get caught up ice pinching like i seen time and time again with Coburn. He used his body well when need be.

 

The only thing i seen he needed to work on is when he had the puck on his stick in his zone he looked a little panicky. That i imagine was from him being nervous with his first call up that will go away once he gets settled and knows he ain't gonna get bench after his first mistake.

 

Bottom line he needs to play this year and at worst be the 7th guy to work in when needed or to give guys a rest.....no more Phantoms from him he is ready, he just needs to play damn it!

 

Hell at one time when the Phantoms needed someone earlier in the season he was a +12 and yet still didn't get the nod!!

 

I was like WTF else does he have to do....he is a stay at home Dman when all is said and done!

Edited May 25, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[mojo1917]

@OccamsRazor

If lauridsen's release looked quick to you than he must have been working on that part of his game ...a lot , since I last saw him, which was the end of last year.

I didn't think he was a "bad skater", but I also didn't see any thing in his game that made me think he was better than Grossmann when both are healthy. He would be cheaper, and may play as well as the big swede, but I didn't see where he was going to displace Grossmann or Schenn with his play based upon the short time I saw him with the big club.

[jammer2]

@mojo1917   I get what you are and aziz are saying about Grossmann, but if Oliver never plays at the NHL level, how is he gonna get better? Myself and a few others think there is some upside there, but he has to play and get confidence in order for that to come to fruition. Grossmann plays a nice clear the crease kinda game, but leaves a lot to be desired in foot speed and quick smart exit passes. Oliver can do what he does much cheaper.....minus a bit of the snarl...although I do think he is naturally a mean kid, so the snarl will come to the surface more when he becomes more comfortable with his surroundings.

 

 I think Oliver's shot is a work in progress, but he is close to Gross right now. I see him getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 goals and 20 assists if/when he gets to play full time and get a few years under his belt....which is much more offense than Gross ever dreamed of supplying. I see something in this kid, I think he can be a perfectly reliable 2nd pairing guy in a few years.

[mojo1917]

@jammer2

The fly in the ointment as I see it is Grossmann is injured and therefore difficult if not illegal to trade.

I would be alright trading the big swede, in a package for an impact player, then Ollie gets his chance. But in the "must always win now" mindset of the Snyder era teams, there is no way you sit a known quantity , for "hey this guy might be good". You've seen it I've seen it , it's an organizational philosophy that doesn't tolerate OJT very well.

[aziz]

 I think Oliver's shot is a work in progress, but he is close to Gross right now. I see him getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 goals and 20 assists if/when he gets to play full time and get a few years under his belt

 

could be.  then again, that's a lot to say of a 25 yearold who's best AHL season saw him netting all of 11 points.  he has 25 points in his entire 189 AHL career.  maybe he hits 30+ in the NHL, but he hasn't shown that kind of output to anyone at any level (22 points over 3 years/108 games with st cloud).  he could shock everyone and be three times the NHL player that he has been an AHL player...but everyone would be pretty, well, shocked.

 

and that's the thing.  each team typically adds 7 new players every june to their reserve list.  any of those players could be amazing NHL players.  most of those players will never see a day on an NHL roster.  very few players are capable of being daily NHLers.  there has to be some means by which a team decides what kids are going "get a shot".  there has to be some bar that those kids have to reach, some amount of specific "hey, wow, he's ready" to sort the very rare success story from the very common chaff.  the kid has to earn it.  he has to shout at the coaches and GM "now, put me in now."  if players are just handed roster spots because "if player X never plays at the NHL level, how is he gonna get better," then you end up with a roster full of buffalo sabres.  they have to earn it.  and frankly, 11 points in the AHL, with 167 PIMs...i dunno that he has.  

 

i kind of get the love and romanticism of the unproven kid, the idea and hope that they will be amazing players -regardless of performance at other levels- if only given an NHL jersey and icetime.  i get it.  the reality is, though, that NHL players are the elite, and the vast majority of hockey players are not good enough.  the vast majority of draft picks aren't good enough.  the vast majority of prospects aren't good enough.  grossmann is good enough.  to me, someone needs to effectively step up and say, "you need me on your team, i have shown you and the hockey world that i am the absolute cream of the crop in the league i'm currently playing in, and i am ready to contribute at the next level, you cannot afford to NOT have me wearing your jersey next season," if they are to bump a proven NHL player from a roster.  that could be a mindblowing AHL season, or it could be a stunningly strong camp.  it can't be, "well, he's been pretty mediocre at every level thus far, he's been pretty alright, but hasn't exactly blown people's doors off, but hey, who knows, maybe a whole new him will show up if we carve out a spot with the big leagues."  that will get your team killed.  it works out like that, sometimes, but shooting for that rare rare thing will get in you trouble way more than it will pay off.

[jammer2]

@aziz  I realize it's a ballsey view of Oliver's upside...I just see some untapped potential in there. Having never produced many points at the AHL level, the chance of him becoming a 30 pt producer at the NHL level is slim to none....but I'm still seeing it. The thing I like the most is his dexterity for such a big man. He's not a stiff lerch type, he has some shiftiness to that huge frame. I think this only gets better with his comfort level.

 

 This is a huge camp coming up for Lauridsen. It will decide whether he makes the jump or ends up being a career AHL'er. Obviously, I'm on the Oliver bandwagon. I believe he is up to the task. He will have to outplay many vets to get his shot, we shall see.....

[OccamsRazor]

If lauridsen's release looked quick to you than he must have been working on that part of his game ...a lot , since I last saw him, which was the end of last year.

I didn't think he was a "bad skater", but I also didn't see any thing in his game that made me think he was better than Grossmann when both are healthy.

 

Well i saw every game him played in the lock out year and i saw him play much better over those 15 from the start to finish.

 

Yes he had some jitters at first but he calmed down and eventually played his game and kept it simple pinched several times i didn't notice him to get burned by and he shot to me got through traffic on net pretty impressive. Something Coburn still can't do.

 

And his skating is pretty decent for a stay at home Dman. So i imagine he will only get better with more playing time. But if you don't play him will never know we'll be just left to guess.

 

As far as his release it will do, sure there are lot of aspects of his game he needs to work on but really who doesn't on this blueline? He will be 26 in December and the front office needs to know if he is going to be able to help or just be a AHL player.

 

One think i think he can do is everything GrossmanN can do and cheaper.

 

By cheaper i mean saving 2.8 mill on the cap if Hexy can find a trade partner. If the cap projection hold true then i expect them to have around 11-11.5 mill to spend and that of course in including the Pronger money.

 

So add GrossmanN's cap saving and that brings the total to 14.3 mill to upgrade the team....in the cap era every penny counts.

 

It is worth looking into. This blueline needs change not a major over haul but better skaters and Ollie is a upgrade in my book from what little i saw. I'm tired of watching GrossmanN get rapped in his own zone simply cause he can't get the damn puck out. And he contributes nothing on the rush....zero.

[OccamsRazor]

could be.  then again, that's a lot to say of a 25 yearold who's best AHL season saw him netting all of 11 points.  he has 25 points in his entire 189 AHL career.

 

Ollie is a stay at home Dman....he isn't going to produce a ton of points but he'll clear the porch some thing GrossamnN and Coburn sure can't do.

 

 

Coburn has 72 playoff games under his belt and has scored a whopping 2 friggin goals so is it fair now to put him on blast cause he isn't producing offense.

 

No stay at home Dmen aren't expected to produce a lot of points. But hell he still struggles with his defensive game in his own zone...something he has done since wearing the orange and black yet he gets a pass. He has gotten better at times but Cobrun struggles badly verse the Rangers but no guys will jump to defend him in a second.

 

Funny how guys will try to every reason to over look certain guys they like then turn around and not give those same exceptions to a guy who has played a grand total of 15 NHL games.

 

Bottom line let he get his shot in training camp and then we'll see till then it's all speculation till that point. Lets put it to rest give him his chance it ain't asking to much the kid has put in the work.

 

He played with very little talent on that Phantoms team and when the Flyers needed someone to help on the blueline earlier in the season he didn't even get a chance at that time on the Phantoms he was +12 damn good for a stay at home Dman....that tells me he was doing his job but still not even a cup of coffee.

 

Anyways this is the last time i'm discussing this guy. I hope he goes on somewhere else so we can see the non stop whining and endless threads about him not getting a chance in Philly. Yes for that to happen it would be a dramatic change but stranger things have happened.

 

His 2.8mill cap savings over GrossmanN makes me even more interested to see if he can help that 2.8 mill could go to shore up the forwards maybe.

Edited May 26, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[jammer2]

@OccamsRazor  Was thinking of starting a thread, which players do you consider virtual *locks* to make the Phantoms next year?  It was a real stinky year for our AHL affiliate, so I expect some whole sale changes down there.