Our goaltending

[Old School Hockey]

Ok I've been watching ALL playoff goalies play better than ours. A rookie in Montreal is now playing better than Howard. It's not because of defense, it's because these guys are in proper position and aren't giving up soft goals. Even Crawford looks better than Howard.

It's time to cut the losses and move on.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Old School Hockey

[Vanflyer]

I don't watch much wings games, so you would know better than me. 

 

Yet, don't you think you are being a bit extreme? The index I generally use regarding goalies is sv pctg. Howards sv pctg during the regular season was pedestrian (but not the worst). Given the mammoth amount of injuries Detroit had, that could be excusable. His save pctg in previous years was upper echelon (top 5). 

 

This year in the playoffs, his sv pctg was stellar (.931). Detroit just ran into a better team and while Howard was good Rask was superior. 

 

If you look at the money Howard makes and look at comparables and stats, Howard is right there. 

 

I know the grass is always greener, but I think with a healthy Detroit club, Howard is perfectly fine. 

 

If not Howard, who would you want?? 

[Old School Hockey]

I don't watch much wings games, so you would know better than me. 

 

Yet, don't you think you are being a bit extreme? The index I generally use regarding goalies is sv pctg. Howards sv pctg during the regular season was pedestrian (but not the worst). Given the mammoth amount of injuries Detroit had, that could be excusable. His save pctg in previous years was upper echelon (top 5). 

 

This year in the playoffs, his sv pctg was stellar (.931). Detroit just ran into a better team and while Howard was good Rask was superior. 

 

If you look at the money Howard makes and look at comparables and stats, Howard is right there. 

 

I know the grass is always greener, but I think with a healthy Detroit club, Howard is perfectly fine. 

 

If not Howard, who would you want??

I WAS a huge Howard supporter.

He is NOT worth the money he's being paid. Which goalie still playing is letting in soft goals?

Here's the thing. He routinely allows soft goals. His rebound control has ALWAYS been horrible. His in net position is never very good. Puck handling? He is by far the worst puck handling #1 goalie in the NHL.

Bottom line in today's CAPPED NHL a team can not win without superior goaltending. And Howard is not a superior goaltender. Plain and simple.

As to who? I don't really care. I just know his 5.6m could have been spent better.

[Old School Hockey]

I don't watch much wings games, so you would know better than me. 

 

Yet, don't you think you are being a bit extreme? The index I generally use regarding goalies is sv pctg. Howards sv pctg during the regular season was pedestrian (but not the worst). Given the mammoth amount of injuries Detroit had, that could be excusable. His save pctg in previous years was upper echelon (top 5). 

 

This year in the playoffs, his sv pctg was stellar (.931). Detroit just ran into a better team and while Howard was good Rask was superior. 

 

If you look at the money Howard makes and look at comparables and stats, Howard is right there. 

 

I know the grass is always greener, but I think with a healthy Detroit club, Howard is perfectly fine. 

 

If not Howard, who would you want??

BTW .931 in 3 games vs 18 games. His regular season save pct was not top 30.

[yave1964]

 Howard was given tons of time in Grand Rapids to develop, which is the Wings way. He is okay, an average goalie, maybe slightly better than average.

  Gustafsson is an UFA and had a great year, quite frankly better than Howard. He may not land a starting job but will land a nice contract. The odds are that he is gone.

 Mrazak is a cocky young goalie with a Calder cup under his belt and has shown flashes of talent that prove that he could be a solid NHL goalie in the future. He is likely in line to be Howard's understudy next season.

 

  I have posted elsewhere @Old School Hockey that I would like to see us sign hometown boy Miller signed, he would be an upgrade over Howard but Howard and his five year deal is likely untradeable. If we could get someone to take Howard off our hands even with minimal return and sign Miller it would be a nice move for us. Miller could start and Mrazak could be a solid understudy for a few years. Frankly I think it would be a good match. 

[Old School Hockey]

Howard was given tons of time in Grand Rapids to develop, which is the Wings way. He is okay, an average goalie, maybe slightly better than average.

  Gustafsson is an UFA and had a great year, quite frankly better than Howard. He may not land a starting job but will land a nice contract. The odds are that he is gone.

 Mrazak is a cocky young goalie with a Calder cup under his belt and has shown flashes of talent that prove that he could be a solid NHL goalie in the future. He is likely in line to be Howard's understudy next season.

 

  I have posted elsewhere @Old School Hockey that I would like to see us sign hometown boy Miller signed, he would be an upgrade over Howard but Howard and his five year deal is likely untradeable. If we could get someone to take Howard off our hands even with minimal return and sign Miller it would be a nice move for us. Miller could start and Mrazak could be a solid understudy for a few years. Frankly I think it would be a good match.

How about a buyout for Howard. Not sure of the NTC/NMC he may have.

[yave1964]

How about a buyout for Howard. Not sure of the NTC/NMC he may have.

Howard's contract does not qualify for a compliance buyout http://www.capgeek.com/player/310.

 

  So essentially we are tied up with him for five years unless we can find a trade partner. There are a lot of goalies as good as Howard or better who are free agents who a team could have for money only, so giving up anything for him by another team sadly does not make sense.

 

  So we cannot buy him out. We likely cannot trade him. Unless we eat a huge portion of his salary over the next five years.

 

 I would like to propose the following:

 

 Sign Miller, with Mrazak as his backup/understudy.

 

Sign Dan Boyle as a veteran defenseman who is still damn good on the power play, even if he has lost a step.

 

Trade Howard and a top tier young forward, eating a large chunk of Howard's salary to the Winnipeg Jets for Evander Kane. Kane wants out of Winnipeg and I think he would be a perfect fit in Detroit. Winnipeg needs a goalie and nobody wants to get one but no free agent wants to play there so getting Howard, especially if the Wings are eating a chunk of salary would have to be enticing.

  That to me is the perfect offseason. I doubt all of that is feasible, we may have to stick with Howard, trade Mrazak and a forward for Kane to get him to Detroit but Boyle, to me is the perfect addition to get our power play out of the depths of mediocrity.

[jammer2]

Trade Howard and a top tier young forward, eating a large chunk of Howard's salary to the Winnipeg Jets for Evander Kane. Kane wants out of Winnipeg and I think he would be a perfect fit in Detroit. Winnipeg needs a goalie and nobody wants to get one but no free agent wants to play there so getting Howard, especially if the Wings are eating a chunk of salary would have to be enticing.

That to me is the perfect offseason. I doubt all of that is feasible, we may have to stick with Howard, trade Mrazak and a forward for Kane to get him to Detroit but Boyle, to me is the perfect addition to get our power play out of the depths of mediocrity.

 

  I like this proposal. It is realistic for both teams.  The Jets would have to trade Pavlac before entering this scenario, but his contract is basically unmoveable due to him sucking. Howard fits a specific need, namely a veteran goalie who, for the most part, is dependable and a studying influence in the locker room. The Jets would be a great fit for him.  I think the Wings would have to up one of their young forward prospects to make this happen, despite Kane's lack of production, he has more value than Howard.....perhaps Pulkinen and Howard for Kane?

 

 What a great fit Evander would be on the Wings. The Wings would get the most out of Kane, pairing with Zetts or Datsuyk. Maybe they put all 3 on the same line?  Either way, all 3 forwards would be on the top pp. Kane could get 40 goals playing with that type of elite talent.

[yave1964]

  I like this proposal. It is realistic for both teams.  The Jets would have to trade Pavlac before entering this scenario, but his contract is basically unmoveable due to him sucking. Howard fits a specific need, namely a veteran goalie who, for the most part, is dependable and a studying influence in the locker room. The Jets would be a great fit for him.  I think the Wings would have to up one of their young forward prospects to make this happen, despite Kane's lack of production, he has more value than Howard.....perhaps Pulkinen and Howard for Kane?

 

 What a great fit Evander would be on the Wings. The Wings would get the most out of Kane, pairing with Zetts or Datsuyk. Maybe they put all 3 on the same line?  Either way, all 3 forwards would be on the top pp. Kane could get 40 goals playing with that type of elite talent.

  One thing that never gets brought up, Kane is black, Detroit never has had a black star on their hockey team. Ever. A little bit of a half dozen players careers usually at the tale end, Kane would not just be a great fit among the forwards, like you said 40 goals is easily within reach on a like with Datsyuk and Nyquist. But a black face of the franchise in Detroit would be marketing gold. I understand his immaturity is an issue but he will outgrow that. Even eating a ton of Howards salary would be worth it to add this enormously talented young man.

  Miller would be an upgrade over Howard, I know he hurt his value more than anyone in the league this year with the way that the Blues blew the first round of the playoffs. But coming home for three years while Mrazak understudies under him would be a great fit.

  And finally I know Boyle is being blasted by Thornton on here but he still has something to offer. Our power play has been so average for two years, adding him and Kane would take our power play to an elite level. Again, I hope Holland sees it the same way.

[Old School Hockey]

Howard's contract does not qualify for a compliance buyout http://www.capgeek.com/player/310.

 

  So essentially we are tied up with him for five years unless we can find a trade partner. There are a lot of goalies as good as Howard or better who are free agents who a team could have for money only, so giving up anything for him by another team sadly does not make sense.

 

  So we cannot buy him out. We likely cannot trade him. Unless we eat a huge portion of his salary over the next five years.

 

 I would like to propose the following:

 

 Sign Miller, with Mrazak as his backup/understudy.

 

Sign Dan Boyle as a veteran defenseman who is still damn good on the power play, even if he has lost a step.

 

Trade Howard and a top tier young forward, eating a large chunk of Howard's salary to the Winnipeg Jets for Evander Kane. Kane wants out of Winnipeg and I think he would be a perfect fit in Detroit. Winnipeg needs a goalie and nobody wants to get one but no free agent wants to play there so getting Howard, especially if the Wings are eating a chunk of salary would have to be enticing.

  That to me is the perfect offseason. I doubt all of that is feasible, we may have to stick with Howard, trade Mrazak and a forward for Kane to get him to Detroit but Boyle, to me is the perfect addition to get our power play out of the depths of mediocrity.

Only hope of a Howard trade would be with a team needing to the cap floor. This all goes back what I said! He's overpaid for he brings to the table.

Watching the goalies of the playoffs makes me sick to think what they are paying Howard.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  The last legit African American the Wings had was Tony Mcgeney.....a long ways off. You make a great point, in a predominantly black city, Evander Kane would open up the Wings to a whole new fan sector. The marketing possibilities are endless. Would be a real nice move by Detroit. They certainly have the young talent to make this happen.

[WingNut722]

@yave1964

 

I like your thoughts, Yave, and the trade proposal is well thought out.  Howard just doesn't have it.  @Old School Hockey hit it right on the nose.  He lets in too many soft goals and his puck control his horrible.  I could allow a few of those soft goals if the forwards could put up a few more goals on the other hand to provide a cushion.  But that just ins't happening anymore.  The Red Wings aren't a "scoring machine" the way they used to be and don't look to become one with the current lineup, the backstop has to be much better.

 

We're actually heavy on a few young forwards, so look for Joaquim Andersson to be dealt this summer.  He was outpaced by Luke Glendenning and Riley Sheahan this season, but he has too much NHL experience to be stashed away in the minors.  Look for Holland to try and make a few dollars on him.  Cory Emmerton the same, only less so.  Andersson would be much more valuable in trade.

 

@jammer2 I had to laugh a bit when you mentioned the marketing possibilities of an African American hockey player in Detroit.  Reminded me of those red and blue Obama shirts folks were wearing -- "HOPE".  Perhaps we'll see one reading "KANE."  And speaking of marketing, if this little scenario plays out, don't forget the Miller brothers being on the same team.       

[yave1964]

@WingNut722

 

Good to see you back in here again!

 

I agree about Andersson, he is likely a goner. Too good for the AHL, not good enough for a regular shift with the Wings with the play of Glendening and Telly Tubby.

  This may sound wierd but i might consider holding onto Emmerton. I have never been a fan of his but injuries occur way too regularly in the NHL and although he does not have much upside he is very familiar with the Wings system. As the 14th forward playing regular shifts in Grand Rapids knowing he would only receive the call when someone was injured with the knowledge that he would then be sent back down when the player comes back he could have some value. Lets say, for instance that Franzen stubs his toe and is going to miss a couple of games, Emmerton could be recalled, Miller could move up a line and Emmerton could take fourth line minutes and penalty kill time in the interim. He just strikes me as a guy who knows his place. Again, nothing special, just a body but he knows the system and could bounce between Detroit and Grand Rapids without complaint. Just a thought.

[yave1964]

@WingNut722

Just read today that Cory Emmerton signed in the KHL for next year. He must have felt that he had no future in North America and went for a payday.

[WingNut722]

@WingNut722

Just read today that Cory Emmerton signed in the KHL for next year. He must have felt that he had no future in North America and went for a payday.

 

Well there goes that idea!

 

Good to be back by the way.  Work and Life heated up for me lately, but it's starting to settle down.

 

I suppose it's all academic now, but I would say to let go of Emmerton anyway.  I don't think he brought enough to the table to warrant keeping him around because of his NHL experience.  In that case, I would take the opportunity to bring up another forward from Grand Rapids and start \molding him early.

[Old School Hockey]

@yave1964

 

I like your thoughts, Yave, and the trade proposal is well thought out.  Howard just doesn't have it.  @Old School Hockey hit it right on the nose.  He lets in too many soft goals and his puck control his horrible.  I could allow a few of those soft goals if the forwards could put up a few more goals on the other hand to provide a cushion.  But that just ins't happening anymore.  The Red Wings aren't a "scoring machine" the way they used to be and don't look to become one with the current lineup, the backstop has to be much better.

 

We're actually heavy on a few young forwards, so look for Joaquim Andersson to be dealt this summer.  He was outpaced by Luke Glendenning and Riley Sheahan this season, but he has too much NHL experience to be stashed away in the minors.  Look for Holland to try and make a few dollars on him.  Cory Emmerton the same, only less so.  Andersson would be much more valuable in trade.

 

@jammer2 I had to laugh a bit when you mentioned the marketing possibilities of an African American hockey player in Detroit.  Reminded me of those red and blue Obama shirts folks were wearing -- "HOPE".  Perhaps we'll see one reading "KANE."  And speaking of marketing, if this little scenario plays out, don't forget the Miller brothers being on the same team.

Lidstrom and Stuart were so good at covering up for Howard. They earned Howard his current albatross of a contract!

In today's NHL if you over pay for a goalie he better be the best or at least top 5. Otherwise it's wasted cap space. See Jimmy Howarfd

[WingNut722]

Lidstrom and Stuart were so good at covering up for Howard. They earned Howard his current albatross of a contract!

In today's NHL if you over pay for a goalie he better be the best or at least top 5. Otherwise it's wasted cap space. See Jimmy Howarfd

 

It's true that today's blueline is not as powerful as it once was (i.e. Quincy and Kindl) and you'll find that a lot of DRW fans, not to mention most of us on this forum are screaming for a veteran defenseman.  It looks like Holland will have a lot of money to spend to this summer, seeing as how a lot of guys will likely retire or let go.  In all reality, I doubt very much that Howard will be moved at all, at least before next season, so now we're back to picking up some skaters.

[jammer2]

@WingNut722  Emmerton had what....5 goals last year. That means he will be a lock to be a top 20 scorer in the KHL. Any league that has Patrick Theorson as a top 10 talent must suck. The guy had one career goal for the Flyers and is a consistent 25 goal guy in the KHL....laughable. 

 

 Correction, he had no goals for the Flyers, but did score 2 with the Oilers once.....lol.

 

 http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=62297

 

 I guarantee if you sneak a peak at Emmerton's KHL stats next year he pops in 20, what a WEAK league that is!!

[WingNut722]

@jammer2

 

Yes but they pay well for the mediocre talent.  That's always been the arrangement.  Those who couldn't make it in the NHL went to the KHL.  Demonstrate proficiency there and you might be able to negotiate a spot playing for the Swedish/Swiss leagues.  

[yave1964]

@jammer2@WingNut722

 

Don't sell the KHL short, it is here to stay and getting better every year. Yes, I know they are getting fourth liners and 35 year old d-men and a lot of folks are saying Kovie returning to mother Russia was an aberration but in my mind while I never in a million years think the talent will be close I do believe that the KHL is presenting a decent product that is getting better every year. 

  A prediction, I said two years ago in here that a Russian would be returning home, this year I think a mid level NHLer of north American persuasion will go to Russia, possibly a Ryan O'Reilly. He seems to be a stubborn cuss and I wouldn't be surprised if he goes to Russia on a one or two year deal if he does not get the deal he wants. Someone like him or a player close to his ilk. Like I said I do not ever foresee a day where the KHL catches the NHL but they are making inroads.

[WingNut722]

@yave1964

 

I don't recall if you were involved in the political talk about the Olympics and whether NHL-ers should be allowed to participate.  The general consensus around that discussion was that if the NHL prohibits player participation in the Olympics, then you would see a lot of three-year contract signings with the NHL, so that the player can play one season in the KHL and still be able to represent his country.  

 

The KHL is still a premier league in the international hockey community, so I don't think it would take much for guys to go over there if pushed.  But if the Olympic ban is put in place, the KHL would absolutely continue to rise

[yave1964]

@yave1964

 

I don't recall if you were involved in the political talk about the Olympics and whether NHL-ers should be allowed to participate.  The general consensus around that discussion was that if the NHL prohibits player participation in the Olympics, then you would see a lot of three-year contract signings with the NHL, so that the player can play one season in the KHL and still be able to represent his country.  

 

The KHL is still a premier league in the international hockey community, so I don't think it would take much for guys to go over there if pushed.  But if the Olympic ban is put in place, the KHL would absolutely continue to rise

I hated the Olympic break, i do not like the NHLers participating, but the problem is:

The players love it.

If we somehow said no more NHLers the rest of the world would continue to send their best to the Olympics and like you said nothing would prevent a Datsyuk or Zetterberg from going over anyway by, like you said signing a one year deal with their home country.

  We have opened a pandora's box with the Pros in the games and i think that (sadly) there is no way to ever put the lid back on again.

[WingNut722]

@yave1964

 

We will certainly agree to disagree on that point.  Because I love NHL-ers in the Olympics.  But I'll save that discussion for four years from now in Korea!  

[Old School Hockey]

Has anyone noticed what playoff goaltending looks like? It's not wearing the Winged Wheel.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Old School Hockey