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I'm gonna go ahead and get this out of the way now


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Can't argue with any of that.  I will add one point that pisses me off when those trades are discussed.  People talk like we traded both of them to LA and gifted the Cup to them.  

 

Carter was traded to Columbus, which at that time, was NHL Siberia.  Richards was traded to LA.  2 different trades, 2 different teams.  Carter pouted his way out of C-bus and has thrived in LA.  

 

Argue about the trades all you want....but don't forget they were not involved in the same deal.

 

People need to stop revising history about how lopsided the trade was, yada yada yada....it was 2 trades, not 1!!!

 

(Not implying YOU said that Fanatic..just a general observation)

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I think that hindsight business is a bunch of crap also.

 

Those guys contributions to the LA Kings should not be played down though.  

Carter is 2nd in scoring this year and Richards was instrumental in their first cup, playing big and important minutes.

 

Don't punch me for saying that. 

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If Philly actually had a goalie they may well have won a cup here.

 

We got some great pieces for them. Homer traded the 'now" for the future. It worked out well for LA. Columbus got burned. But we got at least 4 really good players out of the deal. Moving on...

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Can't argue with any of that.  I will add one point that pisses me off when those trades are discussed.  People talk like we traded both of them to LA and gifted the Cup to them.  

 

Carter was traded to Columbus, which at that time, was NHL Siberia.  Richards was traded to LA.  2 different trades, 2 different teams.  Carter pouted his way out of C-bus and has thrived in LA.  

 

Argue about the trades all you want....but don't forget they were not involved in the same deal.

 

People need to stop revising history about how lopsided the trade was, yada yada yada....it was 2 trades, not 1!!!

 

(Not implying YOU said that Fanatic..just a general observation)

 

Carter is seriously one of the biggest pansies in sports that I have ever seen. Nobody likes playing for a bad team, but dude was on Columbus for 39 game's for God's sake. You have no right to mope that much after 39 games.Major league p-ssy right there.

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I think that hindsight business is a bunch of crap also.

 

Those guys contributions to the LA Kings should not be played down though.  

Carter is 2nd in scoring this year and Richards was instrumental in their first cup, playing big and important minutes.

 

Don't punch me for saying that. 

 

I can't stand it when someone starts ranting some nonsense about how "another former Flyer wins the Cup". It's such crap logic. That's not to say the team has never made mistakes and there aren't some guys I would want back, but the notion that the organIzation made a mistake because someone who was traded won a Cup somewhere else is stupidity at it's finest.

 

They did the same stuff here though. RIchards and Carter were always in the top points wise here as well and it didn't amount to a Cup. And for the record, Carter's "2nd in scoring" for LA this year was a grand total of 50 points. He had much better production here. Hell, they both did. Stats wise, they had the best years of their career here. I'm not saying they are bad players, I'm saying they are benefiting from being on a deeper team where they aren't expected to carry the load.

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The only real comparison is how successful the franchises are over the long term.

 

It wasn't Crater or Richards that missed the playoffs after the trades... If LA wins another Cup - and there is a LOOOOOOONG way to go until that happens - quite frankly that, for me, raises the bar for the Flyers to "win" the trades.

 

I don't regret either trade, but the idea that Crater and Richards "stepped into" an existing winning situation and were along for the ride is just wrong. The Kings were an eight seed that year, had been out in the first round the previous two and had missed the playoffs the previous six. Sure, they had an existing "leadership group" but it's not like Dustin Brown and Anze Kopitar had lead them anywhere special. Crater and Richards, like it or not, brought the Cup Finals experience that they got with the Flyers to the Kings and certainly played a significant role in that Cup run and this year's playoff as well. That kind of veteran experience - and throw in Justin Williams as well - is generally essential for playoff success.

 

The next 2-3 years are put up or shut up time for the group that was brought in to replace them.

 

And I think that replacing Homer with Hextall - who just so happens to have his name on that Los Angeles Cup - says a lot about Homer's performance. A topic we've been over more than a few times. :)

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Carter has always been a goal scorer. He did it in Philly and he does it out  west. That does not add up to team  player which he was not and  it was a trade that was needed. for  him and the Flyers. The Prayer says you have to accept the things you have no control  over.

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I already see it on Facebook and it annoys me there.

 

Richards and Carter were here for 6 seasons. They were given 3 coaches (two of which they complained were too hard on them and one they walked all over), several different versions of a supporting cast, and two of the best defensemen in the modern era (one of which they complained was mean). They also thought the media was too mean to them too, but I digress.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't want to hear any of this "this could have been us" crap. No, it couldn't have. Everyone else around them was traded away or fired. They were given plenty of chances here and couldn't and wouldn't have gotten it done. LA is an ideal spot for them because they walked into a situation where a team already had it's franchise goalie and leadership group. If I hear any complaining about how we traded away the future, I might actually punch you.

 

 

I agree i'm am so tired of this i'm not bitter anymore it was hard to watch Richie (whom was one of my favs) Cater, Simon and Justin raise the Cup in LA.

 

But somewhere deep down i was happy for them....and just jealous.

 

10 years ago never would i have imagined in the next 10 years Tampa, Canes, Ducks, LA and even Ducks would hoist it before my beloved Flyers...but it shows that our creator (whom ever that mmay be for you) has a sense of humor. But i'm not laughing!!!!  :rolleyes:

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The Kings were an eight seed that year, had been out in the first round the previous two and had missed the playoffs the previous six. Sure, they had an existing "leadership group" but it's not like Dustin Brown and Anze Kopitar had lead them anywhere special.

 

I think with that you just proved his point. They helped get them over the hump giving them the depth they needed to even over come being an 8th seed.

 

These two combined with the rest of the guys already there.

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And for the record, Carter's "2nd in scoring" for LA this year was a grand total of 50 points.

 

i should have clarified, 2nd in playoff points,  only Anze Kopitar has more and he's on the same team.

EDIT: Carter has benefited greatly from having Suter as his coach, he's a more complete player for LA than he was here.  When he was here he wasn't bad , he's just better all around now, maturity, change of scenery, new coach all have been good for him.

Edited by mojo1917
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Richards was traded to LA.

 

And to boot, Richards was the supposed better player. Like the player, but he is not as near as good as he used to be. Reminds me of the Drury decline. 

 

Richards has not had an easy go of it there, especially under suter. He struggles to find a line home. 

 

At the end of the day, I will take a 22 y/o Schenn, 25 y/o Simmonds and D man grossman any day of the week for Richards. 

 


Carter has always been a goal scorer. He did it in Philly and he does it out  west. That does not add up to team  player which he was not and  it was a trade that was needed. for  him and the Flyers. The Prayer says you have to accept the things you have no control  over.

 

Carters game has changed immensely (at least of what I have watched in the playoffs). he goes to the dirty areas (I see him in the corners digging for pucks and not in a half effort attempt, standing in front of the net scoring goals, PASSING, and back checking). I think at the time we gave up both players it was a cross roads and there should be know would have / could have / should have regarding those two. I still believe that Philly won both of those trades. 

 

Also, anyone that anchors those two trades as the "must win now" because those two may win another cup, is sadly mistaken. Those trades were made to change many things and one of the biggest was to get younger as a down stream effect to the trades. Sprinkle in some deficiencies in goaltending from universeman, an underperforming (by some JVR) and add into that a run and gun system with little solidfication to break on and coverage on the defensive side and you have what you have. 

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@OccamsRazor.

 

there is a lot of sour grapes that comes from our fanbase about Richards and Carter, no question.

 


I think with that you just proved his point. They helped get them over the hump giving them the depth they needed to even over come being an 8th seed.

 

A good many folks like to say that RIchie and Carts road the coattails of Brown and Kopitar , which they didn't.  They contributed greatly, LA doesn't get past St Louis if not for the way Richards played in that series. For the Kings the Richards trade put them over the top, Carter provided some scoring punch, because if I remember right they scored like 15 goals from late March into April...(hyperbole used for comic effect) .

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Plus everyone these two guys had painkiller addiction problems to IIRC lets not forget that yes it was from the injuries they got from the wars in Philly and the medical staff prescribed these drugs but with these meds most develop dependency on them.

 

And it's not these two there are many in the NHL and other sports that have this problem. That is why a lot of the former enforcers have a law suits against the NHL for the addictions to this drug. It's what supposedly lead to some of the problems with Boogard's death (also mixing with alcohol) and Belak's suicide. And many other that are alive still battle these problems today. The Fridge even eluded to it and have to battle it.

 

And the biggest problem is they (Richie and Crater) were getting them else where other than the medical staff. No proof but rumor at the time.

 

And when the front office caught wind of this them tried to get them help for it which they declined or fought. That was the red flag and one of the biggest problems with them from what i remember and it was effecting them on the ice. And maybe the trade was the wake up call for them to get help and get off these meds.

 

Like i said i can't prove this but i imagine it is what happened and why we saw their game rebound.

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@OccamsRazor.

 

there is a lot of sour grapes that comes from our fanbase about Richards and Carter, no question.

 

 

 

 

A good many folks like to say that RIchie and Carts road the coattails of Brown and Kopitar , which they didn't.  They contributed greatly, LA doesn't get past St Louis if not for the way Richards played in that series. For the Kings the Richards trade put them over the top, Carter provided some scoring punch, because if I remember right they scored like 15 goals from late March into April...(hyperbole used for comic effect) .

 

 

Yes and look at the roster Dave Brown had drafted most of the roster that is in place today and they were HUGE key pieces in this weather people like them or not getting two KEY centers to add to their arsenal already in place to me it was a no brainer risk for Lombardi but he would do it all 6 days of the week again and twice on sunday.

 

And trust me if say the shoe was on the other foot what if that trade brought the Flyers the Cup....fans once again no matter how much they love Richie and Crater if it brings the Cup to Philly would do it again a hundred times, i know i would....i want a Cup in Philly....period i don't care who they trade to get it, if it brings a Cup i'll drive them there!!!!!!!!!!!

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Richards has not had an easy go of it there, especially under suter. He struggles to find a line home.

 

Richards numbers are in serious decline and I would not be shocked if he was bought out after this season.   Maybe it is Suter but he is not worth that contract and I am a HUGE Richards fan...   We got two very good players back and I would do it again.  

 

I am a proud Carter hater and hated him here as well...   He can score and is playing well.   I cant take the fact he moped his way our of Columbus.  

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I think with that you just proved his point. They helped get them over the hump giving them the depth they needed to even over come being an 8th seed.

 

These two combined with the rest of the guys already there.

 

Right, and what of the comparison to the current Flyers' situation - the topic of the thread?

 

Again, I completely agree then and now with the trades. What Homer's Achilles heel turned out to be was losing Jagr, who was exactly the type of player this team needed given that he returned from the KHL, in my opinion, a more complete team player. Letting Jagr go, we have a squad that in two seasons has seen one round of playoff action.

 

Where does the experience come from? Again, again

 

The next 2-3 years are put up or shut up time for the group that was brought in to replace them.

 

Because in the long run it doesn't matter if pound for pound and player for player the Flyers did "better" in the trades - and I believe they did - if the Kings come out with one (two?) Cups as a result of the trades* (and allowing Crater to be on the open market in Columbus still counts - Dean Lombardi was here when they drafted both of them) and the Flyers still don't have any since 1975.

 

If you believe the ultimate goal of this this game is to win championships.

 

And for all the "it couldn't have been us" - you, Occ, are among those who most frequently lament that the Flyers didn't get more scoring when they came within two games of winning the Stanley Cup with Richards as Captain. If they could have should have would have won in 2010 with those two, then I see no reason why they couldn't wouldn't can't win in Philadelphia considering they still had the coach and the veteran defenseman who got there with them and they lost in the second round the next year to a steamroller Bruins team on a mission to erase the humiliation of the Flyers' come from behind win the year before. If all they needed was an upgrade in goal in 2010, what's so all-powerful different in 2012? Taking into account that they had a future Vezina trophy winner on the roster.

 

Tired of the players? I've called Crater "Crater" for years. I never liked "the anointed one" Next Bobby Clarke label that the franchise itself put on Richards. And, management had just signed both to be the co-faces of the franchise for the next decade the year before (Richards' contract previous to Crater's) trading them away. I think such deals are/were stupid. But at that point we were a whisker away from "if you're tired of Crater and Richards, you're tired of the Flyers" for the next nine years.

 

But, in terms of "they got everyone around them traded/fired" - it was management who not only traded/fired everyone around them but also then traded them just one year removed from the Finals appearance you believe the Flyers c/should have won. In fact, four years later I think it was four players from that squad are still on the team (Timonen, Hartnell, Giroux, Coburn). Seems to me more like an indictment of a deal-happy GM than of the players involved.

 

Hear me now and believe me later - few are happier around here that Homer is no longer at the helm.

 

I'm hoping that the Hextall era goes differently. Waiting and seeing.

 

 

 

 

* that was the point being made, right?

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Richards numbers are in serious decline and I would not be shocked if he was bought out after this season

 

I've been reading/seeing that a lot, and in national media outlets--obviously speculation, but it appears to be the case.  He's got 5 years at a cap hit of $5.75 million/per.

 

 Not many teams other than the Flyers will play that for a center to play 4th line. :ph34r:

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And for all the "it couldn't have been us" - you, Occ, are among those who most frequently lament that the Flyers didn't get more scoring when they came within two games of winning the Stanley Cup with Richards as Captain.

 

Yes i said that i wish they had produced more when here Crater not Richie. Richie i was happy with but Crater no he got on my nerves with his game and his constant high and wide shots and not wanting to go in the dirty areas all of which he does now.

 

 "are among those who most frequently lament that the Flyers".........i'm sorry my friend i'm not in this category.

 

yes i mentioned it a long time ago when it went down and i moved on i may comment on some of threads made about the subject but i am in the "i like the trade and return and they needed a change of scenery" crowd....

 

..go back you'll never find once were i created a thread about this i am tired of them and tired of discussing it...the horse is dead nothing to see here i shouldn't have comment on this but i did. And now would be a good time for my last on these two.

 

Sorry you got the wrong dude.

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I've been reading/seeing that a lot, and in national media outlets--obviously speculation, but it appears to be the case.  He's got 5 years at a cap hit of $5.75 million/per.

 

 Not many teams other than the Flyers will play that for a center to play 4th line. :ph34r:

 

LOL... that was great.

 

Interesting thing about Richards but he looks like he is not the same player.   Not sure if it is the system or if he really is just wearing down...  Hope he find his game again but I would think  LA would buy that contract out and let him walk.   Maybe Hextall can resign him and he can play wing on the 4th w/ Vinny :ph34r:

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Richards might be paid highly for a 4th liner... But there are plenty of situations that Sutter counts on him. He played about 17 minutes a night this year (Carter about 19), which is a lot more than most 4th liners.  Our very own overpaid 4th liner played about 15 minutes a night. And I can't think of many situations that LeCavalier would be my go-to guy.

 

 I doubt Sutter is too worried about his caphit. The length on the other hand....

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Richards might be paid highly for a 4th liner... But there are plenty of situations that Sutter counts on him. He played about 17 minutes a night this year (Carter about 19), which is a lot more than most 4th liners.  Our very own overpaid 4th liner played about 15 minutes a night. And I can't think of many situations that LeCavalier would be my go-to guy.

 

 I doubt Sutter is too worried about his caphit. The length on the other hand....

 

I agree, FC...and for the record, I've bought one Flyers jersey in 20 years...number 18--RICHARDS.  I loved the guy when he started in Philly, didn't like him so much when he left.  I think he may be a situation/player where the contract, and only the contract, determines his fate.  As you pointed out, he plays key minutes, albeit in a different role than in Philly.  

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  The point has been made many times on here, we had Richards mis-cast as the #1 center. He is much more effective in a secondary role. Moving forward, I would take what Simmer brings to the Flyers over Richards (the present day, declining Richards that is) and day of the week. A thing a lot of people don't bring into the equation is Vorachek. Where would our offense be without our second best player?  Also, look at the big age disparity between Vorachek and Carter. This trade will only get better and better for Philly, and that is not even counting Cooter, who is evolving into a very nice 2 way player. These guys were just not working out in Philly, a change was needed, and the Flyers made the very best of a bad situation when these trades were consummated.

 

 Gotta give credit where credit is due, Jeff has changed his game a lot. On the Flyers, he would get his body in the proper position defensively, so there was the "illusion" that he was doing what he should be....now there is that killer instinct to get to the puck and make a difference....he is playing with a sense of desperation that we just did not see in Philly....sometimes a trade to Columbus is just what a player needs to wake up...and it has worked for Jeff.

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