I'm gonna go ahead and get this out of the way now

[murraycraven]

while they were here the fanbase was witness to...

A trip to the ECF

A first round loss to the eventual cup champion

Game 6 of the SCF

Loss in the second round to the eventual cup champion.

 

it's not like they didn't win  a lot of hockey games when they were here and were the "focal point" .

i think we get each other's points though.

 

i would not Ctrl-Z the trades, I don't taste the sour grapes from their success in LA.

I also don't feel the need to **** on their time here as wasted and full of terrible hockey/ suckitude , because it wasn't.

 

 

I think it is simple honestly... they were overcast in their roles on the Flyers. They were not cornerstone type players IMO. They are gone, we received a nice return and allowed G to take the reigns of the Team. All in all I see only the positives here but their time here was not wasted.   There was a lot of great hockey...

[OccamsRazor]

I'm not bitter about losing them at all. I don't regret trading the away one bit.

 

What I can't stand is this crying about it. They're gone. They didn't win a Cup here, were given plenty to work with here, and were not going to win a Cup here anytime soon. We didn't trade away a Cup or any of that other nonsense. Get over it (not you, the people who keep bringing it up).

 

 

Yes same here they got some good pieces in return for players need some motivation to put their noses back to the grind stone.

 

Bravo.

 

Now its time for the Flyer to utilize their return put a team around their pieces and strive for the Cup and yes that is a couple years away....but i think they are headed in the right direction.

 

For once it feels like they have their guy is net for a Flyer that in itself is a nice change but they still have much work to do. 

[brelic]

What I can't stand is this crying about it. They're gone. They didn't win a Cup here, were given plenty to work with here, and were not going to win a Cup here anytime soon. We didn't trade away a Cup or any of that other nonsense. Get over it (not you, the people who keep bringing it up).

 

Why does it bother you if others keep bringing it up?

[doom88]

I think it is simple honestly... they were overcast in their roles on the Flyers. They were not cornerstone type players IMO. They are gone, we received a nice return and allowed G to take the reigns of the Team. All in all I see only the positives here but their time here was not wasted. There was a lot of great hockey...

Giroux doesn't appear to be a cornerstone player either. He might to need two good wings to be effective. See NYR series, he was a ghost.

Before someone reads too much into this, he's a very good player, but gets shut down and/or frustrated easily at times.

[Polaris922]

What puzzles me is people saying they'd never win in Philly. That makes no sense to me. You were close twice with them as young players and Giroux coming up quick. It's the last time you had good depth front and back. How can anyone crystal ball they'd never win?

Love the trades or hate them, but don't make things up to justify them.

[mojo1917]

@doom88

Not reading too much into your comment about Giroux, but...

Girardi and Macdonaugh seem to have that effect on people; see Crosby, Sidney and Deshsrnais, David.

I do think a LW with some speed and skill for the top would help the team a great deal though.

[Phillygrump]

I already see it on Facebook and it annoys me there.

 

Richards and Carter were here for 6 seasons. They were given 3 coaches (two of which they complained were too hard on them and one they walked all over), several different versions of a supporting cast, and two of the best defensemen in the modern era (one of which they complained was mean). They also thought the media was too mean to them too, but I digress.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't want to hear any of this "this could have been us" crap. No, it couldn't have. Everyone else around them was traded away or fired. They were given plenty of chances here and couldn't and wouldn't have gotten it done. LA is an ideal spot for them because they walked into a situation where a team already had it's franchise goalie and leadership group. If I hear any complaining about how we traded away the future, I might actually punch you.

 

We also never had Jonathan Quick here. Watching LA win a cup is tough but its not as if we passed on that future here because we traded them away. They were spiraling out here and then straightened out once they got traded.

[King Knut]

I agree that the the "This could have been us" crap is just that... crap.  Different teams. 

 

But I'll also suggest to you that your assumptions about the rumors, conjecture and urban legends surrounding Richards and Carter are quite probably a bunch of crap too.

 

Especially when you look at how they're fitting in in LA without any similar controversy. 

 

Do you really think Sutter  is an easier guy to deal with than Hitch or Lavvy?  Watch some stuff with him and get back to me if you do.

 

I don't think we should all feel bad about the trades or that the trades ruined the Flyers.  But we should acknowledge that the trades MADE the Kings and seem to have helped the Blue Jackets in the long run as well.  So far they haven't changed the Flyers fortunes much.  We lost in the 2nd round, didn't qualify, and then lost in the first round again.  We tended to fair better during the Richards and Carter era.  That really can't be denied.  What happens next for the Flyers is the proof in the pudding.

 

Meanwhile the other thing I think we'd all do ourselves a great favor in acknowledging is that all the crap that was said about them and all the reasons some of us ragged on them and hated them while they were here and for the first few months after they left appear to have very little basis in fact.

 

Their success in LA would strongly seem to suggest that not their skill sets, their desire nor their attitudes were really significant problems.

Think about it.  If Richards and Carter really were what they were so often accused of, then their turn around in LA can only suggest that Lombardi and Sutter aren't just good, they're ridiculously better at their jobs than Clarke, Homer, Hitch, Stevens and Lavvy could ever hope to be at the same jobs.  Maybe they are, or maybe Richards and Carter were never a problem here and John Quick is just way better than the string of backups posing as starters we had running through here their 6 years here.

 

They're good hockey players.   They always were.  There's no getting around it.  Carchidi and company can whine and complain about them all they want, but the jokes on Carchidi and company... and on us.  We were misinformed and some of us bought it hook line and sinker. 

 

It's sad that some of us still can't let go.

 

So I hope it won't annoy you too much if I just say that yes.  It could have been us.  Replace Hackett, Biron, Boucher, Leighton, Bryzgalov and Rookie Bob with the likes of Jonathan Quick and yes... it very seriously could have been us.

 

Hell, let us have a healthy Emery in 2010 or a Steve Mason of last season in any of those years and I think those teams win at least a cup or two.  Richards and Carter wouldn't have made the Flyers in 2012-2014... but they didn't break the Flyers in 2007-2011 either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I already see it on Facebook and it annoys me there.

 

Richards and Carter were here for 6 seasons. They were given 3 coaches (two of which they complained were too hard on them and one they walked all over), several different versions of a supporting cast, and two of the best defensemen in the modern era (one of which they complained was mean). They also thought the media was too mean to them too, but I digress.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't want to hear any of this "this could have been us" crap. No, it couldn't have. Everyone else around them was traded away or fired. They were given plenty of chances here and couldn't and wouldn't have gotten it done. LA is an ideal spot for them because they walked into a situation where a team already had it's franchise goalie and leadership group. If I hear any complaining about how we traded away the future, I might actually punch you.

[jammer2]

We also never had Jonathan Quick here. Watching LA win a cup is tough but its not as if we passed on that future here because we traded them away. They were spiraling out here and then straightened out once they got traded.

 

 

 Yep, for me, this Carter and Richards woulda coulda stuff always comes down to this simple fact, they don't win anything without Quick. Just like his Stanley Cup year, he is the true backbone of this team.

[flyercanuck]

 Yep, for me, this Carter and Richards woulda coulda stuff always comes down to this simple fact, they don't win anything without Quick. Just like his Stanley Cup year, he is the true backbone of this team.

 

 And Quick likely doesn't win one without Carter and Richards. My guess is with a real goalie they could well have won in Philly. The End.

[OccamsRazor]

Maybe I gave your squad more credit than you guys do, but I thought those two guys with Gagne, Pronger, Timonen, Hartnell, Giroux, Briere, Carle, and van Riemsdyk were a formidable bunch and only getting better.  You had Asham, Carcillo and Laperriere in the lineup which made them very difficult to play against.  You added Meszaros the next season and won the Atlantic Division despite Pronger's injury.  You got swept by the Bruins but let's face it, they had a revenge factor going into the playoffs after your comeback the year before.  

 

I'm not a Flyers fan, obviously, and I am not saying this just to "stir the pot" or any similar opportunistic reach to poke a finger at you guys.  I seriously think Holmgren's biggest mistake was in trashing the team after the 2010-2011 season.  You still had one hell of a lineup, even with Pronger being out.  I thought you were pretty serious contenders for the Cup at that point, and honestly, I didn't like it one bit.  I know you guys are looking at the returns you got for the Richards/Carter trades here, and they may yet pay off.  But I strongly felt the biggest mistake Holmgren ever made as a GM was disassembling that team.  Yeah they were young and did some immature things, but given a little seasoning and you guys might have been celebrating by noiw.  Dead serious.  

 

Now feel free to tell me I don't know anything because I'm not a fan, etc etc...  but you have to wonder if maybe that's what lets me look at it objectively...

 

 

Yes Pol i agree...all they needed was a goaltender and by that i mean not Bryz....he just derailed everything....just say go after Mason sooner...who knows.

[fanaticV3.0]

while they were here the fanbase was witness to...

A trip to the ECF

A first round loss to the eventual cup champion

Game 6 of the SCF

Loss in the second round to the eventual cup champion.

 

it's not like they didn't win  a lot of hockey games when they were here and were the "focal point" .

i think we get each other's points though.

 

i would not Ctrl-Z the trades, I don't taste the sour grapes from their success in LA. EDIT: I agree that the hindsight, "what if game" is pointless and borderline stupid.

I also don't feel the need to **** on their time here as wasted and full of terrible hockey/ suckitude , because it wasn't.

 

The organIzation saw similar levels of "success" during the Lindros, Leclair, Roenick, Primeau, and Hatcher eras. It's not like they took a dead franchise and made them PO contenders for the first time in years. They are good players, but brought nothing new to the team that others hadn't already done.

[fanaticV3.0]

Why does it bother you if others keep bringing it up?

 

I think the better question is why do people keep bringing it up?

 

They're been gone for 4 years and we've traded away bigger names. They are nothing special in that sense. People didn't even talk about the Lindros trade to this magnitude for this long. I don't care if they go elsewhere and succeed. Them winning a Cup (and maybe 2) bothers me less than the complaining about it. People are stupid and short-sighted. The only reason this conversation exists is because they won a Cup so soon after leaving, so it people's minds we "blew our chance". It's moronic thinking.

[fanaticV3.0]

What puzzles me is people saying they'd never win in Philly. That makes no sense to me. You were close twice with them as young players and Giroux coming up quick. It's the last time you had good depth front and back. How can anyone crystal ball they'd never win?

Love the trades or hate them, but don't make things up to justify them.

 

Don't lecture people over crystal balls when you were just polishing your own a few posts back with your "Philly looked good and I didn't like it" stuff.

[fanaticV3.0]

We never had the goaltending or d to sustain that kind of run (sc champions). Allot of people think that Carter / Richards did not have much to do with the first cup. They did. They had allot. Not as much as Kopitar / Brown / Doughty / Quick, but with those other guys in front of them, it allowed the Kings to come in waves on both sides of the ice. 

 

LA already had the infrastructure in place. They just needed to fill some wholes. In Philly, Carter and Richards WERE the infrastructure and not the hole fillers. A big difference. 

 

Additionally, Girioux has evolved into a top 5 centermen in the league just by sheer subtraction of Richards. Richards is a workhorse. He has skills, but they are not elite skills. Allot of his accomplishment comes from his effort. As his career has progressed, it seems that work is taking a tool on him. 

 

At the end of the day: 

 

Carter= Couturier (21 y/o), Voracek (24 y/o)

 

Richards= Schenn (22 y/o), Simmonds (25 y/o), Grossman

 

Its hard to say your club has missed an opportunity when one was not really there. By trading two spots, 5 were filled. Not just filled with vet journeymen players, but promising young players. The goalie situation seems to have been solved with Mason. Now d and a winger need to be addressed. These were holes when Carter and Richards were here as well. But at that time we only had one and a 1/2 formidable lines. We are close to rolling three very formidable lines and possibly four (not sure about the VLC stuff and where that will land). 

 

This is exactly my point.

[OccamsRazor]

The organIzation saw similar levels of "success" during the Lindros, Leclair, Roenick, Primeau, and Hatcher eras. It's not like they took a dead franchise and made them PO contenders for the first time in years. They are good players, but brought nothing new to the team that others hadn't already done.

 

 

Yep all those guy in different ears and yet one common trend....

 

...they had to have had the worst goaltenders of any of the playoff teams in any those year....if not someone jog my memory. 

 

1997: waaay past his prime Hexy and over rated backup Snow...

 

2004: Esche (a backup cast off from the Yotes of all teams) and 37 year old Burke.....

 

2010: Boucher a journey man backup and Leighton a career AHLer.

 

If only the Flyers front office thought goaltending was a crucial part of the team success. You have to admit those teams accomplished a lot with very little goaltending help/confidence.

 

Who knows maybe those team could have hauled in 3 Cups....yeah unlikely but you have to think that if that even had a goalie with a better pedigree and skillz it could have been better results.

[fanaticV3.0]

Yep all those guy in different ears and yet one common trend....

 

...they had to have had the worst goaltenders of any of the playoff teams in any those year....if not someone jog my memory. 

 

1997: waaay past his prime Hexy and over rated backup Snow...

 

2004: Esche (a backup cast off from the Yotes of all teams) and 37 year old Burke.....

 

2010: Boucher a journey man backup and Leighton a career AHLer.

 

If only the Flyers front office thought goaltending was a crucial part of the team success. You have to admit those teams accomplished a lot with very little goaltending help/confidence.

 

Who knows maybe those team could have hauled in 3 Cups....yeah unlikely but you have to think that if that even had a goalie with a better pedigree and skillz it could have been better results.

 

I have no problem admitting that. It's a legit point. It's no secret we've had goaltending problems.

 

I also think people like to use it as a crutch. Plenty of teams won with goalies who were nothing special.

Edited June 2, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[fanaticV3.0]

We also never had Jonathan Quick here. Watching LA win a cup is tough but its not as if we passed on that future here because we traded them away. They were spiraling out here and then straightened out once they got traded.

 

Agreed on all points.

[OccamsRazor]

Plenty of teams won with goalies who were nothing special.

 

Really like who please jog my memory....i just couldn't recall any my mind isn't working right this morning just having my cup of joe now and it hasn't kicked in.

 

And i'm not using it as a crutch...sometimes i think it has a lot with management and the fact how they won 2 Cups with a goaltender no one wanted and they just signed him for pennies....and boo-yah two Cups so they think it isn't that important....at least that is what i think they think. 

[Vanflyer]

Really like who please jog my memory....i just couldn't recall any my mind isn't working right this morning just having my cup of joe now and it hasn't kicked in.

 

Detroit did, as well as Pitts. Both of those teams were so loaded up front, they really did not need anything more than average. 

[fanaticV3.0]

Detroit did, as well as Pitts. Both of those teams were so loaded up front, they really did not need anything more than average. 

 

I'd throw in Cam Ward, Khabibulin, and JSG as well. Chicago also did it with two different goalies.

 

I"m not saying they are all horrible players or that we had anyone better, but you don't need an all-time great in net to win.

[fanaticV3.0]

Really like who please jog my memory....i just couldn't recall any my mind isn't working right this morning just having my cup of joe now and it hasn't kicked in.

 

And i'm not using it as a crutch...sometimes i think it has a lot with management and the fact how they won 2 Cups with a goaltender no one wanted and they just signed him for pennies....and boo-yah two Cups so they think it isn't that important....at least that is what i think they think. 

 

Osgood, Fleury, Khabibulin, Ward, JSG. I think the fact that Chicago did it with two goalies says something, even of some of their stats are good.

[OccamsRazor]

Detroit did, as well as Pitts. Both of those teams were so loaded up front, they really did not need anything more than average. 

 

@

fanaticV3.0

Yeah but i can't say those guys are worst than Boucher/Leighton though....just can't.

[brelic]

Homer made those two trades. It was a big shakeup. That's why people still talk about it. Heck, they still talk about the Cups like they happened last year. And the Broad Street Bullies. Both of those are multiple decades removed.

 

We'll never know how Richards and Carter would have done in Philly had they not been traded. They could very well have won a Cup, or two. Or come close. Or fade quietly into the night after the 2010 pinnacle. 

[Vanflyer]

I'd throw in Cam Ward, Khabibulin, and JSG as well. Chicago also did it with two different goalies.
 
I"m not saying they are all horrible players or that we had anyone better, but you don't need an all-time great in net to win.

 

Won't argue that, but Detroit and Pitts easily come to mind because they had so much talent outside goal.