Flyers screwed out of drafting Kane?

[Lindbergh31]

After watching the CHI/LA game tonight, and watching Patrick Kane play it continues to piss me off that the Flyers got screwed in the 2007 draft. Instead of getting 1st overall which would have been Kane the Flyers ended up with second and drafting JVR. To think what Giroux and Kane would have looked like playing on the same line. He's an exciting player to watch and it's going to be a hell of a game 7.

[jammer2]

@Lindbergh31   I was waiting patiently for this thread.....ha ha. Yeah, just a beast with the puck, such a jitterbug he can go 100 different ways, so you have to back off him, cause he can make you look real stupid if you commit. His ability to turn on a dime at full speed with the puck is amazing. He's putting on quite the show this year in the playoffs, especially when his team really needs him. Yeah, we got screwed.

[The Quigster]

I think the Rangers would love to see Kane,considering what they did  to Giroux.

[yave1964]

@Lindbergh31   I was waiting patiently for this thread.....ha ha. Yeah, just a beast with the puck, such a jitterbug he can go 100 different ways, so you have to back off him, cause he can make you look real stupid if you commit. His ability to turn on a dime at full speed with the puck is amazing. He's putting on quite the show this year in the playoffs, especially when his team really needs him. Yeah, we got screwed.

  Not saying JVR is a superstar but he is a fine player and I think that the Flyers gave up on him way too early for a common type of d-man whom they could have gotten for a lot less.

[ruxpin]

Not saying JVR is a superstar but he is a fine player and I think that the Flyers gave up on him way too early for a common type of d-man whom they could have gotten for a lot less.

I still disagree that JVR is a fine player.

He has the ability to be a fine player. All the physical stuff is there.

He doesn't have the constitutional fiber to be a fine player. He doesn't have the work ethic, the attention span, nor the interest. He is good for sorry periods and then disappears.

There have been worse #2 picks, but the Flyers should either have stayed Turris or traded down.

[canoli]

If you watched JVR a lot when he was with the Flyers you probably wouldn't think they "gave up on him way too early." Homer didn't get great value for him but at the time JVR, going on his 4th year in the NHL was still showing "potential" and that's it. Oh yeah he did get hot once, for about a week and a half; the rest of the time he was invisible or worse.

 

[edit: yeah we got hosed by bad luck on the bounce. Kane is as good as they come offensively; he took a few games to get going but after Q shuffled the lines he found a combo that really paid off.]

Edited May 31, 2014 by canoli

[ruxpin]

If you watched JVR a lot when he was with the Flyers you probably wouldn't think the Flyers "gave up on him way too early." Homer didn't get great value for him but at the time JVR was still showing "potential" but that's it. Oh yeah he did get hot once, for about a week and a half; the rest of the time he was invisible or worse.

This. Completely agree about the didn't get enough value for him. On the other hand, if Homer were trading with me he wouldn't have gotten more than what my dog just left in the backyard. Even up, in my opinion.

Getting a young defenseman, even a project, probably wasn't horrible.

As for Kane (so we don't hijack the thread) I wouldn't say screwed but it is a shame we lost that lottery (I blame it on our culture). On the other hand, you have to know that had the Flyers drafted Kane he'd be playing elsewhere by now.

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

 

 Kane + Center City = match made in hell.

 

 

 WITH the 20/20 hindsight...Subban, Benn, Couture, McDonough, Pacioretty, Voracek, Simmonds, Shattenkirk I'd rather any of them over JVR.
 

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

Kane + Center City = match made in hell.

WITH the 20/20 hindsight...Subban, Benn, Couture, McDonough, Pacioretty, Voracek, Simmonds, Shattenkirk I'd rather any of them over JVR.

I'd take the guy from the Quaker Oatmeal box over JVR.

Yeah, Kane + Richards + Crater + center city = Kane playing somewhere else by now

[canoli]

Yeah, Kane + Richards + Crater + center city = Kane playing somewhere else by now

 

Or...maybe that trio has more "juice" in the locker room and more firepower on the ice that they're all together still in Philly. Pronger and the old school wing decide to live and let live and Lavy never mentions the stupid "Dry Island" nonsense. Who knows?

[ruxpin]

Or...maybe that trio has more "juice" in the locker room and more firepower on the ice that they're all together still in Philly. Pronger and the old school wing decide to live and let live and Lavy never mentions the stupid "Dry Island" nonsense. Who knows?

No way. It's hard to say because it's all fictional alter-universe stuff but I would surmise that a Philly draft would have destroyed Kane's career right out of the gate.

He does seem to have a better constitution than JVR and having him in 2010 might have made a huge difference you would have to assume (even if the difference was that he wasn't A Hawk). I guess all I'm basing my version of "what if" on is Kane's party scene notoriety mixed with Richards' and Crater's reputation sounds like death and destruction and pregnant, diseased coeds

[OccamsRazor]

I still disagree that JVR is a fine player.

He has the ability to be a fine player. All the physical stuff is there.

 

I think he is coming a long all those games watching Sid perfect his art...JVR is a student of the game this video is proof of his progression.... 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKAFeiowmWw

 

....and had the Flyers had the 1st overall......consider Kane's size 5-11 and JVR being 6-3 despite Kane being the "consensus #1 overall"...Flyer would have still effed it up and taken JVR i just know it.... 

Edited May 31, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[mojo1917]

I find the speculation that Kane + old city = disaster, Arrogant and laughable. The guy lives in Chicago , and plays on a team chock full of guys his own age...and , and has had his run ins with the local press and the "authorities ". Now the Chicago press probably doesn't act like 10 year old school girls the way the philly press does, but there are plenty of places and opportunity for a young rich professional athlete to find trouble in Chicago.

[flyercanuck]

@mojo1917

 

 Sure. And he also has Toews playing the father figure/get your act together of I'll kick your arse. Which he wouldn't in Philly. I'm pretty sure they had somewhat of an "intervention" with Kane in Chicago. He was definately going down that path. And seems to have grown up in that department.

[radoran]

I find the speculation that Kane + old city = disaster, Arrogant and laughable. The guy lives in Chicago , and plays on a team chock full of guys his own age...and , and has had his run ins with the local press and the "authorities ". Now the Chicago press probably doesn't act like 10 year old school girls the way the philly press does, but there are plenty of places and opportunity for a young rich professional athlete to find trouble in Chicago.

 

Kane had quite the rep in Buffalo even before he came out in the draft. He was put into a great position with Toews in Chicago (and lived with his mom for at least his first year). He changed his attitude quite a bit. One wonders how he would have done without the team success Chicago experienced, but that's just sheer speculation.

 

If one buys into the whole "Olde Citey Partey Krewe" conspiracy, then Philadelphia was a much different atmosphere than Chicago. If one believes that the team that lost Pelle Lindbergh is to drunk driving is turning a blind eye towards socializing that was adversely affecting a team that, after all, only went to the Cup Final...

 

I don't buy into that, nor do I buy into the whole "JVR was never going to be anything here" - 20 goal scorers who have playoffs like he did against Boston simply don't "just happen." Other people can make whine out of the sour grapes for as long as they like, the team still traded a 30-goal scoring left wing ("imagine what he would look like on Giroux's wing!" ) for a serviceable second pair defenseman.

 

The ball didn't drop the Flyers' way in that draft, but they sure as hell bungled their player.

 

Cue the "b-b-b-but change of scenery!" crowd in 3... 2... 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I hated the JVR pick. I wanted them to select Sam Gagner. I still think to this day that if Gagner never went to Edmonton and went to Philadelphia instead, he would be a much better player.

[The Quigster]

The really great thing is now the Flyers have Luke Schenn instead of JVR!

[jammer2]

@ruxpin   I still contend to this day that JVR does not *love* playing hockey. It's just the only thing he can do to make himself a millionaire. Hockey is a means to an end...thus, he has no real passion, no real purpose to perfect his craft. I'm fine with cutting the apron strings and shipping him off. If there is one thing I hate, it's player who is not dedicated to his chosen profession....and that is just what JVR is, not dedicated.

[radoran]

@ruxpin   I still contend to this day that JVR does not *love* playing hockey. It's just the only thing he can do to make himself a millionaire. Hockey is a means to an end...thus, he has no real passion, no real purpose to perfect his craft. I'm fine with cutting the apron strings and shipping him off. If there is one thing I hate, it's player who is not dedicated to his chosen profession....and that is just what JVR is, not dedicated.

 

The grapes, they are sour. Guys who are "not dedicated" don't score 30 in this league.

 

If Claude Giroux is a better player than Phil Kessel then JVR was a 30-goal scorer here.

 

Instead, we're stuck still looking for the 30-goal scoring left wing for Giroux.

 

Heckuva job, Homer.

[jammer2]

@radoran  I'm not saying JVR is not talented, just saying he can be better than he currently is. I don't think it's sour grapes, I wish him nothing but luck, just seems to me like he is not overly concerned at putting in the work, the stuff you need to be to get better. He'll never be a "dominating" player in this league, even though he has the skill set to do so. No one will ever be able to tell me that hockey his not a means to an end for JVR. I just don't see the unbridled passion that a lot of other players have. Also worth noting, he gets first line minutes, first pp time, so when you're playing with Kessel, you should be putting up 30 goals.

[aziz]

The grapes, they are sour. Guys who are "not dedicated" don't score 30 in this league.

Yashin? Daigle and Radulov, near enough as makes no difference?

Don't know why it would sour grapes, people were saying the same thing while he was a flyer. Yes, 30 goals with the leafs this season, but in bunches and very little at all down the stretch when the team really needed them. L schenn wasn't much of a return, but still not interested in having jvr back.

[ruxpin]

Kane had quite the rep in Buffalo even before he came out in the draft. He was put into a great position with Toews in Chicago (and lived with his mom for at least his first year). He changed his attitude quite a bit. One wonders how he would have done without the team success Chicago experienced, but that's just sheer speculation.

If one buys into the whole "Olde Citey Partey Krewe" conspiracy, then Philadelphia was a much different atmosphere than Chicago. If one believes that the team that lost Pelle Lindbergh is to drunk driving is turning a blind eye towards socializing that was adversely affecting a team that, after all, only went to the Cup Final...

I don't buy into that, nor do I buy into the whole "JVR was never going to be anything here" - 20 goal scorers who have playoffs like he did against Boston simply don't "just happen." Other people can make whine out of the sour grapes for as long as they like, the team still traded a 30-goal scoring left wing ("imagine what he would look like on Giroux's wing!" ) for a serviceable second pair defenseman.

The ball didn't drop the Flyers' way in that draft, but they sure as hell bungled their player.

Cue the "b-b-b-but change of scenery!" crowd in 3... 2...

I'll bite. He (JVR) was crap here, and he is crap in Toronto. It's not about a change of scenery. I don't care if he is in the city, the woods, a farm or floating in the ocean. I'm so happy he's not a flyer and he was probably my least favorite while he was. Good riddance.

[ruxpin]

Yashin? Daigle and Radulov, near enough as makes no difference?

Don't know why it would sour grapes, people were saying the same thing while he was a flyer. Yes, 30 goals with the leafs this season, but in bunches and very little at all down the stretch when the team really needed them. L schenn wasn't much of a return, but still not interested in having jvr back.

Exactly this

[radoran]

I'll bite. He (JVR) was crap here, and he is crap in Toronto. It's not about a change of scenery. I don't care if he is in the city, the woods, a farm or floating in the ocean. I'm so happy he's not a flyer and he was probably my least favorite while he was. Good riddance.

I respect, and disagee with, the position.

Not like he's scored 30 twice.

Yet.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I respect, and disagee with, the position.

Not like he's scored 30 twice.

Yet.

 

I'll bite. I wanted to like JVR. I really did. However, I saw that he was never going to fully buy into what's required to take his game to the next level and be amongst the elite at his position. Now, part of that blame goes to UNH, where he played his NCAA hockey. They allowed him to develop lazy habits that should have been corrected immediately. JVR was allowed to cherry pick and not back check hard. He didn't really have to play any sort of defense there. As well, he only played a 40 game schedule. If he would have went to junior hockey, those bad habits would have been corrected and he would have gotten used to playing a long schedule. For me, JVR was all about the easy way to get things done. Million dollar talent, ten cent work ethic. He was given a prime job on the left wing of Giroux and he blew it. That's something we can all say pretty fairly. He had the chance to become a 35 to 40 goal scorer in Philadelphia on Giroux's wing and he blew it. Yes, I get that he broke his foot and he suffered a concussion, but during the time he did play, he was no hell. 

 

As for JVR's time in Toronto, he started out hot, no doubt about it. He looked like he was going to be that 85 to 90 point elite winger. However, once the rest of the league caught on to him, he practically disappeared. He stopped fighting for pucks. He stopped going to the net. He stopped doing all the things he did to start the season. He rested on laurels and pretty much coasted down the stretch when his team needed him to really step up. And once again, I blame that on his development at UNH.

 

I wish JVR all the luck in the world because there's obviously talent there (legitimate talent that should make him one of the elite game breakers). However, I wouldn't rest hopes on him because he simply doesn't have the drive to sustain that for long periods of time.