Flyers screwed out of drafting Kane?

[Polaris922]

@ Polaris922

I was stating that we got screwed because we lost the 1st overall pick in the draft lottery eventhough we finished dead last for the season. If the NHL wanted to stick it to the Flyers then we'll never know but Flyers fans know there was no conspiracy on the draft lottery that year, but 2005 is a different story

You're absolutely right! I still don't understand why the Flyers helped make sure we got Crosby though. Did they think the fan base needed another reason to hate the Pens? And why even pretend to make it the lowest chance in the history of the lottery for the last place team to get first pick? Your team managemt really helped us pull a fast one there!!

Edited June 3, 2014 by Polaris922

[fanaticV3.0]

I still disagree that JVR is a fine player.

He has the ability to be a fine player. All the physical stuff is there.

He doesn't have the constitutional fiber to be a fine player. He doesn't have the work ethic, the attention span, nor the interest. He is good for sorry periods and then disappears.

There have been worse #2 picks, but the Flyers should either have stayed Turris or traded down.

 

That's an old Superfan line isn't it?

 

The only thing that can be said about JVR right now is that he's better than he was here. It doesn't make him great or even consistently good. One 60 point season doesn't make you a great player. If he turns out to be a 60 point a year guy, that's pretty good. It's also not "Kane level".

[murraycraven]

The only thing that can be said about JVR right now is that he's better than he was here. It doesn't make him great or even consistently good. One 60 point season doesn't make you a great player. If he turns out to be a 60 point a year guy, that's pretty good. It's also not "Kane level".

 

^^That about sums it up perfectly.

 

JvR is better than he was here but I tend to think he will always be a decent player that disappears for long stretches.   Sad b/c he has all the tools to be a dominating player but just think he has no drive to be that type of player.  Maybe he will but I would take him on the wing over Schenn on defense these days....

[radoran]

That's an old Superfan line isn't it?

 

The only thing that can be said about JVR right now is that he's better than he was here. It doesn't make him great or even consistently good. One 60 point season doesn't make you a great player. If he turns out to be a 60 point a year guy, that's pretty good. It's also not "Kane level".

 

But it is better than, say, Kyle Turris has ever done in the NHL... Everybody who is on the "JVR was disappointing" bandwagon would have run Turris out of town even quicker than JVR.

 

Brayden Schenn hasn't hit that 30/60 level. Scott Hartnell has done it - just twice in his career. 

 

Again, if Claude Giroux is a better player than Phil Kessel, JVR should have been able to hit 30 here just as easily as he did in Toronto. And then the question of the top line left wing has a 30-goal scoring answer to it.

 

I understand the desire to say "never would have happened here" since the trade was such an egregious waste of resources by the Flyers - part of a long pattern we can see under the former GM. And the fact that JVR just posted 30 after putting up 18 in 48 in the lockout season (Giroux 28 and 13).

 

But that's also just about the very definition of sour grapes... 

 

If they had a competent GM who had gotten better value for the player he had just signed to a six year extension then we're having a different conversation (because, obviously, the team was so disappointed with him they did the same thing they did with Crater and Richards - sign to a long term extension...)

 

But he didn't.

[fanaticV3.0]

^^That about sums it up perfectly.

 

JvR is better than he was here but I tend to think he will always be a decent player that disappears for long stretches.   Sad b/c he has all the tools to be a dominating player but just think he has no drive to be that type of player.  Maybe he will but I would take him on the wing over Schenn on defense these days....

 

 I would rather have him over L. Schenn too, but the fact that this thread was created to talk about Kane and JVR is now dominating the conversation is just sad. No. Just no.

[radoran]

 I would rather have him over L. Schenn too, but the fact that this thread was created to talk about Kane and JVR is now dominating the conversation is just sad. No. Just no.

 

No, it wasn't

 

Here's the first post

 

After watching the CHI/LA game tonight, and watching Patrick Kane play it continues to piss me off that the Flyers got screwed in the 2007 draft. Instead of getting 1st overall which would have been Kane the Flyers ended up with second and drafting JVR. To think what Giroux and Kane would have looked like playing on the same line. He's an exciting player to watch and it's going to be a hell of a game 7.

 

So, JVR is mentioned in the first post of the thread by the poster who created the thread and the comparison to "what Kane would look like on his line" is an obvious one.

 

The grapes, they were obviously sour.

[fanaticV3.0]

But it is better than, say, Kyle Turris has ever done in the NHL... Everybody who is on the "JVR was disappointing" bandwagon would have run Turris out of town even quicker than JVR.

 

Brayden Schenn hasn't hit that 30/60 level. Scott Hartnell has done it - just twice in his career. 

 

Again, if Claude Giroux is a better player than Phil Kessel, JVR should have been able to hit 30 here just as easily as he did in Toronto. And then the question of the top line left wing has a 30-goal scoring answer to it.

 

I understand the desire to say "never would have happened here" since the trade was such an egregious waste of resources by the Flyers - part of a long pattern we can see under the former GM. And the fact that JVR just posted 30 after putting up 18 in 48 in the lockout season (Giroux 28 and 13).

 

But that's also just about the very definition of sour grapes... 

 

If they had a competent GM who had gotten better value for the player he had just signed to a six year extension then we're having a different conversation (because, obviously, the team was so disappointed with him they did the same thing they did with Crater and Richards - sign to a long term extension...)

 

But he didn't.

 

To quote the great Roger Murtaugh, "That's pretty ****** thin."

 

1. It's a strawman or some other logical fallacy. Where's Superfan when you need him?

2. It's ignoring chemistry between players.

3. It's ignoring JVR's own growth as a player. There's no doubt he's better than he was when he was here and besides #2 I think he had a great deal to do with that.

Edited June 3, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[OccamsRazor]

Again, if Claude Giroux is a better player than Phil Kessel, JVR should have been able to hit 30 here just as easily as he did in Toronto.

 

How could you really say that when he didn't even play with G on a regular basis....is he suppose to do that from the bench??? JVR work ethic and his horrible play without the puck kept him away from G's line.

 

Had JVR played every night on G's line....THEN.....didn't produce it would be fair to say that but blaming someone for anothers lack of production and they didn't play together doesn't make sense Rad have you had your coffee this morning.

 

That is like blaming G now for Brayden now not scoring 30 goals.....and he didn't even play a complete game on G's wing.

[fanaticV3.0]

No, it wasn't

 

Here's the first post

 

 

So, JVR is mentioned in the first post of the thread by the poster who created the thread and the comparison to "what Kane would look like on his line" is an obvious one.

 

The grapes, they were obviously sour.

 

Relax Superfan. I didn't tell you you couldn't talk about JVR. Obviously his name is going to come up when talking about that draft and our team's role specifically in that draft (and it's fair game). But I'm not gonna argue over why the thread was created. It was created to talk about what would have happened if we gotten Kane. We already know what did happen with JVR.

 

And my JVR comment was in regards to comparing him to Kane (when somebody called JVR "a fine player" too).

[Vanflyer]

One 60 point season doesn't make you a great player. If he turns out to be a 60 point a year guy, that's pretty good. It's also not "Kane level".

 

Yet there are those that now say they would want Turris on that pick instead of JVR, yet all Turris has done is have one 55 point season- playing one more season than JVR. JVR's production (right wrong or indifferent), smokes Turris's- with one less season under his belt no less. 

[aziz]

But that's also just about the very definition of sour grapes...

 

no, it isn't.  JVR was disliked here while still a flyer.  people posting in this thread continue to see a player that they would not want on their team, even if he puts up points over the course of a season.  that isn't sour grapes.  sour grapes is where you convince yourself you didn't really want a thing that you can't have.  continuing to not want something after you no longer have it, that's just not wanting the thing.

 

last season JVR put up 61 points.  he scored 31 of those in 14 multi-point games.  in the other 66 games, he scored 30 points.  9 points in the leaf's last 20 games of the season, i.e., when they really needed their 1st line LW to step up.  and it isn't like he brings anything to the table when not scoring.  he isn't a physical presence.  he isn't a leader.  he isn't good defensively.  

 

there are sour grapes here about mike richards.  not JVR.

 

similarly, i can't imagine there are any sour grapes in boston about phil kessel.  scores a ton, but not the kind of player the bruins want on their roster.  and frankly, not the kind of player that really helps a team looking to go any distance in the post season.  he'll win you a handful of regular season games, but over any given spread of contests, he is every bit as likely to vanish as he is to be a positive difference maker.

[AndyS]

@ruxpin

 

 Kane + Center City = match made in hell.

 

 

 WITH the 20/20 hindsight...Subban, Benn, Couture, McDonough, Pacioretty, Voracek, Simmonds, Shattenkirk I'd rather any of them over JVR.

 

 

Man, seeing it put that way (the list of players the Flyers could have drafted at #2), makes me a little ill.

 

Just imagine Benn on a line with Giroux.  

[canoli]

the saving grace about the JVR-LSchenn trade is that Luke actually showed sustained improvement this year (after Andy MacDonald was brought in) whereas JVR's numbers show an "improvement" that amounted to him getting hot a few times (instead of once) during the season. Other than that he looked exactly the same as he did in Philly.

 

LSchenn still made plenty of mistakes even after MacDonald became his partner but MacDonald kind of "forced" him to be more responsible defensively, to quit handling the puck so much. If Schenn keeps playing a simple, defensive game he'll be effective.

 

JVR on the other hand ... well maybe he'll surpise everybody and devote himself to his job as an NHL forward. But I doubt it. Maybe I just happened to catch his "off" nights but the Leafs' games I saw this year he was still The Invisible Man for the most part.

[murraycraven]

the saving grace about the JVR-LSchenn trade is that Luke actually showed sustained improvement this year (after Andy MacDonald was brought in) whereas JVR's numbers show an "improvement" that amounted to him getting hot a few times (instead of once) during the season. Other than that he looked exactly the same as he did in Philly.

 

LSchenn still made plenty of mistakes even after MacDonald became his partner but MacDonald kind of "forced" him to be more responsible defensively, to quit handling the puck so much. If Schenn keeps playing a simple, defensive game he'll be effective.

 

JVR on the other hand ... well maybe he'll surpise everybody and devote himself to his job as an NHL forward. But I doubt it. Maybe I just happened to catch his "off" nights but the Leafs' games I saw this year he was still The Invisible Man for the most part.

 

 

Thought this was an interesting read from Broad Street... if you look at his stats Schenn actually regressed this year and was consistently playing against lesser lines/players:

 

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/5/30/5740008/luke-schenn-profile-review-grade-flyers

Edited June 3, 2014 by murraycraven

[canoli]

thanks for the link - to be honest though I couldn't really follow that article, the writer bounced between seasons so much I lost track. That, plus I never took the time to understand the Corsi and the other "advanced" stats. But anyway I got the gist - to this guy Schenn's season was disappointing.

 

I only see one real problem with Luke Schenn's game and that is his penchant for doing too much with the puck. When he plays a simple game, advances the puck calmly he's a fine defensemen. He's good on the PK too. When he gets "creative" he gets in trouble. A lot of defensemen do, that's not a knock on his puck-handling so much as it is a knock on his judgement.

 

He's 24. There's no reason to think he's finished improving, that he can't get better. He skates well, uses his size to hit big. He needs to develop more hockey IQ that's all. He may never be a top-pair guy but a solid 2nd-pair/PKer isn't asking too much from him imo.

[FreakinFlyersFan]

Rumblings out of Chicago is that Sharp may be available. Not sure if they are true or not but Toews and Kane's contracts are up in 2015 and I'm sure they will get hefty raises which might mean Patrick Sharp may be the odd man out. Would Flyers be willing to trade for him? and what would you give up for Sharp?

[ruxpin]

Rumblings out of Chicago is that Sharp may be available. Not sure if they are true or not but Toews and Kane's contracts are up in 2015 and I'm sure they will get hefty raises which might mean Patrick Sharp may be the odd man out. Would Flyers be willing to trade for him? and what would you give up for Sharp?

 

Matt Ellison

[Vanflyer]

if you look at his stats Schenn actually regressed this year and was consistently playing against lesser lines/players:

 

Read the article. What is showed me is that Schenn can be a good player if partnered with the right kind of player. Whats actually more damning in that article is that Coburn can not anchor a pairing as a 1-2 guy without a partner like Kimmo (ie last year it was Couburn / Grossman). 

[Vanflyer]

Rumblings out of Chicago is that Sharp may be available.

 

Why in the world would Chi want to get rid of Sharp? The past 6 seasons (I threw out last year because he was injured), all he has done is average 30 goals and 40 assists. Granted he did not have a good playoff, but that is not his norm. 30/40 guys do not grow on trees. 

 

If Chicago was looking to move anyone, I would start with Hossa who is under contract until he will be in a retirement home. 

[Vanflyer]

Matt Ellison

 

and throw in Ken Hitchcock as a sweetener. 

[fanaticV3.0]

Yet there are those that now say they would want Turris on that pick instead of JVR, yet all Turris has done is have one 55 point season- playing one more season than JVR. JVR's production (right wrong or indifferent), smokes Turris's- with one less season under his belt no less. 

 

I'm not sure what your point is. That my opinion that JVR isn't great is somehow wrong because he's better than Turris, whom other people want? Ok....

Edited June 4, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[Vanflyer]

I'm not sure what your point is. That my opinion that JVR isn't great is somehow wrong because he's better than Turris, whom other people want? Ok....

 

It was a side-comment not directed at you per se'. It is in the context of the number two pick and who is better between JVR and Turris. Some feel Turris would / should have been the pick. I beg to differ. While there are several other players down the line in that draft class I certainly take over JVR OR Turris, thats easy to do with 20/20 hind site. At the time, it was a coin toss between the two at the number two slot (Turris / JVR). I still think the pick was the right one. 

 

Nothing more, nothing less. 

[fanaticV3.0]

^^That about sums it up perfectly.

 

JvR is better than he was here but I tend to think he will always be a decent player that disappears for long stretches.   Sad b/c he has all the tools to be a dominating player but just think he has no drive to be that type of player.  Maybe he will but I would take him on the wing over Schenn on defense these days....

 

aziz was kind enough to spell it out. He's still that, just at a little bit of higher level. Better than he was here, would definitely prefer him over schenn, but I'm not comparing him to Kane or one of the other top-level talents in the league. That's just ridiculous.

[Vanflyer]

but I'm not comparing him to Kane or one of the other top-level talents in the league. That's just ridiculous.

 

Would you compare him to Patrick Sharp? 

[murraycraven]

aziz was kind enough to spell it out. He's still that, just at a little bit of higher level. Better than he was here, would definitely prefer him over schenn, but I'm not comparing him to Kane or one of the other top-level talents in the league. That's just ridiculous.

 

 

Agreed... he is nowhere to be found if comparing to Kane.   Nowhere near the same class of player...