No takers on Vinny?

[fanaticV3.0]

Partially agreed, only because I believe in a 4th line center who is strong on FO and PK.

Blair Betts and Adam Hall, while replaceable, were very helpful.

It's not a top priority, but sure shouldn't be ignored.

 

I love a 4th line that serves an actual purpose - rather than to just kill time - but it doesn't have to be that purpose. It can/should be if that's what you need or the more likely scenario, all you can afford, but shouldn't have to be. The idea that line has to be just that is incorrect. That is my point. Especially when you take into consideration that most of the time the top PKers on the team are usually from the top 9 (which is all the more reason for a 4th line that can give the top 9 a break without being a liability).

[fanaticV3.0]

Sure.  But if their offensive skills/production offset them being a defensive liability, that alone is often enough for a team to justify not only keeping those players but paying their hefty salary.  Kovalchuk is a prime example.  The guy was doing absolutely ZERO defensively, but was one of the most offensively gifted players in the league.  And there are tons of other examples to support this.

 

 

Guys who are that good offensively are always going to find work, even if they are a defensive liability. Goals win games and players who score them have more value. A lot more value. Guys like that have more value than a 4th line mucker and grinder. It's not an excuse or defense for the Kovalchuck's of the world, it's just a fact. If money was no object, nobody is picking Zac Rinaldo over Kovy.

Edited June 24, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[OccamsRazor]

Vinny will give up the puck cause he's not willing to take a bonecrushing hit to maintain possession.

 

How long before Flyers trade for Kesler to reunite him with former teammate and Hobey Baker Award finalist R. J. Umberger??? The draft??

 

I'd do it if they'd take Vinny and GrossmanN as payment....could happen....they forced Scotty to Columbus.

[ruxpin]

either that or as aziz says, you take time away from more talented players in the top 6....and someone like Hartnell who just *fell* into it.

 

[Howie58]

As we approach the draft I could see him packaged. Some team well under the cap might take him on as means of building character--my nearby Panthers are a possibility. We send him with a second rounder and some prospects and/or a Nick Grossman.  I can't see him being moved on a standalone deal. But i am no GM.  

 

The only "long-term" hope we have is a career stabilization that allows for trading later this season. But that is low probability. But if the Hartnell deal is an indicator, VLC has been sent some clear signals about his long-term fit or lack thereof. And that might pry loose the NTC.

 

Howie

[ruxpin]

As we approach the draft I could see him packaged. Some team well under the cap might take him on as means of building character--my nearby Panthers are a possibility. We send him with a second rounder and some prospects and/or a Nick Grossman.  I can't see him being moved on a standalone deal. But i am no GM.  

 

The only "long-term" hope we have is a career stabilization that allows for trading later this season. But that is low probability. But if the Hartnell deal is an indicator, VLC has been sent some clear signals about his long-term fit or lack thereof. And that might pry loose the NTC.

 

Howie

 

Man, I hope you're right, sir.

[Howie58]

Man, I hope you're right, sir.

Rux:

 

I suspect Arab and Israeli Flyers fans might agree on that!

 

Best,

 

Howie

[Vanflyer]

That includes the 4th line.

 

The fourth line is for giving the first three lines enough of a breather so they can play at peak level, while not screwing the pooch in doing so. Its also for gooning it up when necessary so you don't waste skilled players sitting in the penalty box for 5 minutes at a shot. :-P

[fanaticV3.0]

The fourth line is for giving the first three lines enough of a breather so they can play at peak level, while not screwing the pooch in doing so. Its also for gooning it up when necessary so you don't waste skilled players sitting in the penalty box for 5 minutes at a shot. :-P

 

Nobody on this team stood up for their teammates than Hartnell in recent years. Simmonds is the heir apparent in that department (as well as a few others). They were 3rd and 4th in points last year and did so while being 2nd and 3rd in PIM.

[fanaticV3.0]

As we approach the draft I could see him packaged. Some team well under the cap might take him on as means of building character--my nearby Panthers are a possibility. We send him with a second rounder and some prospects and/or a Nick Grossman.  I can't see him being moved on a standalone deal. But i am no GM.  

 

The only "long-term" hope we have is a career stabilization that allows for trading later this season. But that is low probability. But if the Hartnell deal is an indicator, VLC has been sent some clear signals about his long-term fit or lack thereof. And that might pry loose the NTC.

 

Howie

 

That's funny, because one of my first reactions to the Hartnell trade was that maybe nobody is biting on VLC and they were looking for cap relief wherever they can get it.

[Vanflyer]

Nobody on this team stood up for their teammates than Hartnell in recent years.

 

2010-2011

 

Daniel Carcillo: 13

Jodey Shelley: 12

Sean Odonnell: 7

Scott Hartnell: 6

 

2011-2012

 

Zac Rinaldo: 15

Wayne Simmonds: 10

Tom Sestito: 7

Jodey Shelley: 6

Scott Hartnell: 4

 

2012-2013

 

Wayne Simmonds: 6

Zac Rinaldo: 5

Jay Rosehill: 4

Ty McGinn: 3

Scott Hartnell: 2

 

2013-2014

 

Jay Rosehill: 10

Zac Rinaldo: 7

Luke Schenn: 6

Wayne Simmonds: 6

Brayden Schenn: 4

Steve Downie: 2

Scott Hartnell: 2

 

Your perception of Hartnell being a "protector" is very misguided. Brayden Schenn / Luke Schenn combined for the same number of fights LAST year as Hartnell has had in the past 3 years (10). 

 

Truthfully, you don't want you top 6 playing that role anyway- that includes simmonds. Simmonds does it instinctively and mostly in the heat of the battle. But truthfully, he is better served on the ice than in the box serving 5 plus minutes. 

 

I wouldn't worry about the loss of Hartnell in that capacity as its not really a valid point. 

[Vanflyer]

They were 3rd and 4th in points last year and did so while being 2nd and 3rd in PIM.

 

Dont let hartnells pims totals be construed as "protectatory" pims. MANY of his penalties were of the bone head / too slow / tick tacky variety. At the same time he was very good at agitating the other team into penalties (6th in the league) that if offset allot of his bone head penalties. 

[fanaticV3.0]

2010-2011

 

Daniel Carcillo: 13

Jodey Shelley: 12

Sean Odonnell: 7

Scott Hartnell: 6

 

2011-2012

 

Zac Rinaldo: 15

Wayne Simmonds: 10

Tom Sestito: 7

Jodey Shelley: 6

Scott Hartnell: 4

 

2012-2013

 

Wayne Simmonds: 6

Zac Rinaldo: 5

Jay Rosehill: 4

Ty McGinn: 3

Scott Hartnell: 2

 

2013-2014

 

Jay Rosehill: 10

Zac Rinaldo: 7

Luke Schenn: 6

Wayne Simmonds: 6

Brayden Schenn: 4

Steve Downie: 2

Scott Hartnell: 2

 

Your perception of Hartnell being a "protector" is very misguided. Brayden Schenn / Luke Schenn combined for the same number of fights LAST year as Hartnell has had in the past 3 years (10). 

 

Truthfully, you don't want you top 6 playing that role anyway- that includes simmonds. Simmonds does it instinctively and mostly in the heat of the battle. But truthfully, he is better served on the ice than in the box serving 5 plus minutes. 

 

I wouldn't worry about the loss of Hartnell in that capacity as its not really a valid point. 

 

Wait, you think the guy that fights the most is automatically the best teammates/protectors? Like, for real? You actually believe that?

 

Who was Carcillo protecting when he fought Talbot in a game they were up 3-0? Or what about when he took on the raging lunatic Marion Gaborik? It's a good thing Carcillo took one for the team there, because there would have been a pile of bodies had he not stopped that situation. Most goons can't even control themselves. They just want to pound somebody's face.

Edited June 26, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[Vanflyer]

Wait, you think the guy that fights the most is automatically the best teammates/protectors? Like, for real? You actually believe that?

 

Not necessarily, but I have to base it on something. What do YOU base it on?? My point was that Hartnell is the type of player that has his teammates backs, he was neither the only one nor the primary one. 

[fanaticV3.0]

Not necessarily, but I have to base it on something. What do YOU base it on?? My point was that Hartnell is the type of player that has his teammates backs, he was neither the only one nor the primary one. 

 

Nobody said he was the only one.

 

Name one player who does it more, especially amongst this core, which is roughly around the time the douche twins were shipped out of town.

[aziz]

Wait, you think the guy that fights the most is automatically the best teammates/protectors? Like, for real? You actually believe that?

Well, what does "sticking up for teammates" mean? Hartnell fought twice last season. Beyond that... Does puffing out his chest and talking smack really accomplish all that much?

[murraycraven]

Well, what does "sticking up for teammates" mean? Hartnell fought twice last season. Beyond that... Does puffing out his chest and talking smack really accomplish all that much?

 

 

Hartnell was not a protector and as Van stated most of his PIMs came from bad penalties.  I am a Hartnell supporter and still think the trade is bad (as it stands today - I understand the trade but feel like we lost the deal) but I think this topic is way overblown.  There are plenty of people who can help out if someone is taking liberties on your star players.   At the end of the day I think it is a useless argument b/c the goon/protector types are not longer all that important.  I rather have a 4th line that can actually forecheck like hell and be responsile in thier own end - see the Rangers (minus the Carbomb).

 

The refs protect the players enough to the point you dont need the traditional good to protect a player.  If a player can fight - great.  But he better be a good skater and hockey player. 

Edited June 26, 2014 by murraycraven

[fanaticV3.0]

Well, what does "sticking up for teammates" mean? Hartnell fought twice last season. Beyond that... Does puffing out his chest and talking smack really accomplish all that much?

 

It's more sincere than any of Carcillo or Rinaldo has done. Guys like that don't care what team they are playing for or who is in the locker room. They just want to hit somebody.

[Howie58]

That's funny, because one of my first reactions to the Hartnell trade was that maybe nobody is biting on VLC and they were looking for cap relief wherever they can get it.

fan:

 

I suspect cap relief + ability to open up line space is a key driver of whatever our friend Hextall does. Sarah Baicker's piece on Comcast summarizes this very well.

 

Howie

[fanaticV3.0]

fan:

 

I suspect cap relief + ability to open up line space is a key driver of whatever our friend Hextall does. Sarah Baicker's piece on Comcast summarizes this very well.

 

Howie

 

I agree it's cap-related, but I also think Chief wants a more disciplined/defensive player.

[Vanflyer]

Name one player who does it more,

 

Does WHAT more?? 

[Howie58]

I agree it's cap-related, but I also think Chief wants a more disciplined/defensive player.

Howdy:

 

I like RJ. I hope a change of scenery helps his numbers. I don't doubt his work ethic and he will take fewer penalties. 

 

Peace,

 

Howie

[murraycraven]

Howdy:

 

I like RJ. I hope a change of scenery helps his numbers. I don't doubt his work ethic and he will take fewer penalties. 

 

Peace,

 

Howie

 

 

Howie,

 

I hope a change is good for RJ too and he is more disciplined and adds flexibitly to the lineup...  although, I still fear that CBJ saw a huge decline and it may have been from injury.  RJ was in fact a healthy scratch for CBJ during its most crucial time of the season which scares me.   I hope to wrong...

Edited June 26, 2014 by murraycraven

[Howie58]

MC:

 

Some feel that Karkoleinen fleeced Hexy in that the raw material and Corsi are better for Hartsy. Well, we will see soon enough. This is one where both parties may be diminishing assets.  By Turkey Day we know if we have a Turkey!

 

Best,

Howie

[OccamsRazor]

Some feel that Karkoleinen fleeced Hexy in that the raw material and Corsi are better for Hartsy

 

I'm sure that shoe would have been on the other foot to had Umberger planned with linemates like Giroux and Jake. Give it time after watching next season with Umberger we'll have a better perspective on who won or lost this deal.

 

What i do know is that Hartnell with G and Jake scored 1 even strength goal in the last 29 games of the regular season....with G and Jake again, on his line and then didn't score any goals in the 7 playoff games....so he had his chance and well he didn't produce.

 

Power forwards when their skills start eroding do it fast and and for 4.75mill Hexy had to do something.