Coburn to Edmonton for...?

[RonJeremy]

Is there a stat for wide and high shots? I'm sure our defense was right up there.

[aziz]

Is there a stat for wide and high shots? I'm sure our defense was right up there.

Kind of. There is a "missed shot" stat, counts all shot attempts that did not make it on goal. High and wide or blocked. Here are the defenseman totals for the Flyers and the four teams that made it to the conf finals

PHI

265 missed

656 on goal

921 total shot attempts

29% of all attempts did not make it on goal

NYR

255 missed

706 on goal

961 total

26% missed

LAK

416 missed

762 on goal

1178 total

35% missed

CHI

291 missed

755 on goal

1046 total

28% missed

MON

295 missed

563 on goal

858 total

34% missed

[King Knut]

I like where Berube started but the fact is he was simply out coached in the rangers series.

He didn't have the offensive answers the team needed.

Giroux woke up a bit and that helped, but it was too little too late and game 7 kinda flushed all that progress down the tubes.

They needed more room for offensive creativity and Berube's approach didn't allow for it.

The Kings had play makers and passers rolling in all four lines. We had them on one and a half.

When people say we're not close to contending And our defense is horrid, I don't quite buy that hook line and sinker.

I think they're closer to good than we think. The rangers series was a bad matchup in Styles at a time when they were really clicking.

We played scared offensively. Cautious. With no confidence. Game 6, there was some strut and swagger, but the garden scared the pee out of the flyers in 7 and they froze up like a turtle in winter.

If Berube is smart and watches enough tape and talks through it enough, has a chance.

In the mean time, Schenn is playing scared like Jeff Carter used to and that's killing his line, which really needs to be taking advantage of whatever room Giroux's line makes matchup wise.

they did. OTOH the Flyers committed so many unforced errors, TOs that were just brain-dead, panicky...dumb... the Flyers' skaters - pretty much all of them racked up way too many TOs to compete against any good team - and we still took them to 7 games.

I thought the Flyers played 1 - count em, ONE good game out of seven - G6 at home. That was it. Meanwhile a month before that the Flyers were clicking along pretty good, playing well as a team. I don't know what happened - that letdown after they solidified their PO spot was bad - and they just never recovered their game in time for the POs.

[Vanflyer]

UH.......no you must not get good reception in your cave Florida has the #1 overall pick.....pay attention stop day dreaming....that is my job.
 
And by the way i'll still puff puff pass for good measure. to left mon to left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I can't pay attention while my daughter is banging on my head! :-) Seriously, so the lottery no longer exists? I am just too lazy to go look (plus my head hurts). 

[Vanflyer]

Is there a stat for wide and high shots?

 

That USED to be Carters moniker when he was in Philly. pffft

[AJgoal]

Lottery already happened while the POs were ongoing, Van. Florida jumped up to the first pick.

[OccamsRazor]

Seriously, so the lottery no longer exists?

 

No it exists just that Florida has already won it.

[Vanflyer]

No it exists just that Florida has already won it.

 

K. I would think they would make teams work harder and pull the balls on draft day. :-)

[canoli]

I like where Berube started but the fact is he was simply out coached in the rangers series.

He didn't have the offensive answers the team needed.

Giroux woke up a bit and that helped, but it was too little too late and game 7 kinda flushed all that progress down the tubes.

They needed more room for offensive creativity and Berube's approach didn't allow for it.

The Kings had play makers and passers rolling in all four lines. We had them on one and a half.

When people say we're not close to contending And our defense is horrid, I don't quite buy that hook line and sinker.

I think they're closer to good than we think. The rangers series was a bad matchup in Styles at a time when they were really clicking.

We played scared offensively. Cautious. With no confidence. Game 6, there was some strut and swagger, but the garden scared the pee out of the flyers in 7 and they froze up like a turtle in winter.

If Berube is smart and watches enough tape and talks through it enough, has a chance.

In the mean time, Schenn is playing scared like Jeff Carter used to and that's killing his line, which really needs to be taking advantage of whatever room Giroux's line makes matchup wise.

 

 

I don't know if the Flyers are "closer to good than we think" or not. I agree it was a "bad matchup" but ya know...so what? The road to winning the Cup involves matchups that aren't ideal. The Flyers took the Rags to 7 games but 2 of those game our goalies stole and in G6 the Flyers played their best hockey of the season. Because they're not a mature team they don't know how to summon that best effort more than once a week it seems, as we saw during the reg season, which leads me right to the D.

 

In a perfect world Coburn would've stepped up after Pronger went out and would be the 1/2 guy he sometimes seems to be. If that had happened our D right now would be much better. But that ship sailed. So who's leading that bunch? Who's the go-to guy when the game is on the line? When the PO series comes down to elimination time... We don't have anyone who fills that role and I believe the Flyers need that kind of guy. Other teams may do it by committee but the Flyers don't; their best successes have always been when there's at least one strong leader on the blue line.

 

In the same perfect world Luke Schenn figures it out this coming season, realizes he's not a budding Duncan Keith. Andy Mac plays 18-20 instead of 22-26...etc. A lot of "perfect world" scenarios have to happen to make that D competitive, somewhat imposing to the opposition. Right now I can't imagine they instill much fear around the NHL. Not that they're pushovers or anything, just that it's obvious you can rush them into mistakes, corner them into panicking and coughing up the puck.

 

So I don't know KT - I liked your post a lot and I agree with most of it - esp about Berube's start and then his finish in the POs. Some of his late-series decisions I didn't mind but to start the series by telling everyone we're changing our game, we're going to dump n chase and forget carrying thru the N zone...what was the point of that? The press were running stories about the Flyers game plan and the series hadn't even started yet = rooking coaching mistake. But while I don't say "the D is horrid" I do believe it needs outside help. Maybe bringing up Ollie Lauridsen can change the complexion enough, relieve Mac of those extra minutes he can't skate...I don't know. And certainly the forwards have to do their part - which to me means managing the puck much better. Brayden Schenn has to take on more responsibility; he's got to "bring it" more often or that 2nd line is sunk.

 

well once again I typed too much - I could go on forever about the Flyers' holes but let's see what happens this summer. All the press says they won't do much trading but who knows?

[The Quigster]

I watched the seventh game Bruins/Flyers 2010 on Comcast channel 8 this week,Great game! Sadly, it show me just how far out of contention the present Flyers really are!

[OccamsRazor]

I watched the seventh game Bruins/Flyers 2010 on Comcast channel 8 this week,Great game! Sadly, it show me just how far out of contention the present Flyers really are!

 

 

Taking the Rangers Cup team to 7 games in a series and losing 2-1 after not having your starting goaltender tells me more that they are real close, more than 2010 team does now.

 

How many guys from that team are still on the Flyers????

 

Hartnell, Kimmo and Coburn????

 

Not much of that has to do with the team now.

Edited June 21, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[Phillygrump]

You cited Bouwmeester, who I clearly stated has a higher value in hockey circles than Coburn - and he got the 22nd overall and two nobodies.

 

I'm not tip toeing at all - Coburn is barely worth a low first much less 3rd overall.

 

I'll restate, again:

 

1) If I'm Edmonton, I'm not giving up the 3rd (much less the 3rd PLUS) for Coburn. 

 

2) If I'm Coburn, I'm not waiving to go to Edmonton.

 

Absolutely nothing you have said has affected either of those two points.

 

 

I get why as a Flyers GM you wouldn't give that up for Coburn, but with an organization who hasn't made the playoffs in forever and a young crop of talent already in the system who keep getting older and older with no real improvement in wins due to a significant lack on the back end wouldn't it make a little more sense to you to go after an NHL ready Dman that you covet?

 

Instead of drafting another young forward with upside why not put some chips in the middle and make a run for your fan base and for your young players to show them you are committed to winning and taking the next step in the "building a contender" plan.

 

Don't you think the top young players get sick of playing for a team that has all this young talent and still can't get out of the way of a top 5 NHL draft pick every year? 

 

They have a glaring need and plenty of ammo. You could afford to not be getting exact value for a player you truly covet. Especially when that player (though arguably not great at anything but good) is extremely important to the team he currently plays for.

 

I don't think the 3rd overall pick is unreasonable for a player. I keep hearing "no way does Edmonton pay this asking price or that asking price" but if I'm the Flyers no way do I let Coburn go for less than a significant offer that borders on overpayment. He's too important to this team. 

 

Edmonton knows how important he is to Philly. Its obvious to us so its obvious to them. They obviously like Coburn enough to be interested in him for the last two years (if the rumors are to be believed) so why would the 3rd overall pick be that unreasonable?

[Phillygrump]

Keeping in mind their situation and Philly's situation are not the same. 

[ruxpin]

K. I would think they would make teams work harder and pull the balls on draft day. :-)

I'd buy that. I think they do it so there are two different news events, though.

[sarsippius]

I watched the seventh game Bruins/Flyers 2010 on Comcast channel 8 this week,Great game! Sadly, it show me just how far out of contention the present Flyers really are!

Quite enjoyed that myself, much easier to watch when you know the outcome!

[ruxpin]

Quite enjoyed that myself, much easier to watch when you know the outcome!

 

Ain't THAT the truth!

[radoran]

I get why as a Flyers GM you wouldn't give that up for Coburn, but with an organization who hasn't made the playoffs in forever and a young crop of talent already in the system who keep getting older and older with no real improvement in wins due to a significant lack on the back end wouldn't it make a little more sense to you to go after an NHL ready Dman that you covet?

 

Instead of drafting another young forward with upside why not put some chips in the middle and make a run for your fan base and for your young players to show them you are committed to winning and taking the next step in the "building a contender" plan.

 

Don't you think the top young players get sick of playing for a team that has all this young talent and still can't get out of the way of a top 5 NHL draft pick every year? 

 

They have a glaring need and plenty of ammo. You could afford to not be getting exact value for a player you truly covet. Especially when that player (though arguably not great at anything but good) is extremely important to the team he currently plays for.

 

I don't think the 3rd overall pick is unreasonable for a player. I keep hearing "no way does Edmonton pay this asking price or that asking price" but if I'm the Flyers no way do I let Coburn go for less than a significant offer that borders on overpayment. He's too important to this team. 

 

Edmonton knows how important he is to Philly. Its obvious to us so its obvious to them. They obviously like Coburn enough to be interested in him for the last two years (if the rumors are to be believed) so why would the 3rd overall pick be that unreasonable?

 

Keeping in mind their situation and Philly's situation are not the same. 

 

I don't really disagree with any of this, but you didn't at all explain why Coburn wants to go to Edmonton (vacation home notwithstanding).

 

There is no clear cut #1 choice in this year's draft, but there are three "exceptional" players in the analysis. As such, the 3 isn't that far from the 1. You're going to get a potential impact player.

 

If I'm Edmonton, I'm looking to deal some of my forward talent (unproven, potential, etc.) for some additional help. The #3 could be part of that. But I don't see Coburn (with one year left on his deal after next season) as a player I would give that up for.

 

Example - Bouwmeester. Most hockey people still hold Bouwmeester in higher regard than Coburn. That's just a fact. Bouwmeester got a #22 overall, a "prospect" that, to date, has played 8 NHL games, and a mediocre goalie.

 

How is Coburn worth more than that? I've asked Occams many times and still haven't gotten a response - even though he brought up Bouwmeester in the first place.

 

Again, if I'm Edmonton I'm not giving up the #3 overall for Coburn, despite agreeing with your analysis here. Yes, that is likely what it would take to pry him loose from Philadelphia, but there is more at play than just "getting Philadelphia to trade him."

 

And, again, if I'm Coburn, why do I want to go from "perennial contender" Philadelphia to "perennial doormat" Edmonton? They're not a "second rate #1 defenseman" away from being a contender and they likely won't be a contender no matter what Coburn brings to the table for them. There is a window closing on Braydon to get his name on the Cup, why would he slam it shut?

[ruxpin]

I don't really disagree with any of this, but you didn't at all explain why Coburn wants to go to Edmonton (vacation home notwithstanding).

 

There is no clear cut #1 choice in this year's draft, but there are three "exceptional" players in the analysis. As such, the 3 isn't that far from the 1. You're going to get a potential impact player.

 

If I'm Edmonton, I'm looking to deal some of my forward talent (unproven, potential, etc.) for some additional help. The #3 could be part of that. But I don't see Coburn (with one year left on his deal after next season) as a player I would give that up for.

 

Example - Bouwmeester. Most hockey people still hold Bouwmeester in higher regard than Coburn. That's just a fact. Bouwmeester got a #22 overall, a "prospect" that, to date, has played 8 NHL games, and a mediocre goalie.

 

How is Coburn worth more than that? I've asked Occams many times and still haven't gotten a response - even though he brought up Bouwmeester in the first place.

 

Again, if I'm Edmonton I'm not giving up the #3 overall for Coburn, despite agreeing with your analysis here. Yes, that is likely what it would take to pry him loose from Philadelphia, but there is more at play than just "getting Philadelphia to trade him."

 

And, again, if I'm Coburn, why do I want to go from "perennial contender" Philadelphia to "perennial doormat" Edmonton? They're not a "second rate #1 defenseman" away from being a contender and they likely won't be a contender no matter what Coburn brings to the table for them. There is a window closing on Braydon to get his name on the Cup, why would he slam it shut?

 

 

I agree with all of that.  But it also inspired a largely unconnected question (except that it involves Coburn).

 

Given the type of game Coburn plays, do you think he might actually be better suited for Western Conference hockey?  I don't actually think Edmonton would be a good place for him because of other things involved (including those you mentioned).  But I wonder if somewhere out west where he is the "other" guy on the top pairing or the top guy on the second pairing if his game might not blossom a bit more. 

 

What do you think?

[radoran]

Given the type of game Coburn plays, do you think he might actually be better suited for Western Conference hockey?  I don't actually think Edmonton would be a good place for him because of other things involved (including those you mentioned).  But I wonder if somewhere out west where he is the "other" guy on the top pairing or the top guy on the second pairing if his game might not blossom a bit more. 
 
What do you think?

 

Yeah, sure, could be. He's not the banger that the East prefers. He could with his skating and positioning be an asset (and I do think he is an asset for Philadelphia).

 

But, to stay on point, that's still not a reason that , if I'm Coburn, I'm looking to go to on the the 3/4 worst teams in the league.

[RonJeremy]

We gave up a second and third for McDonald, so Coburn very well could be worth Edmontons first rounder this year, quality defenseman are at a premium. It all depends on how desperate Edmonton. Is. They have had high draft choices for years and they still are horrible. So maybe In their minds another top 3 pick isn't all that important, but having a veteran defenseman anchor the back end to help this team of youngsters might be way more important at this point. Their management is under pressure to show some improvement, so it does seem they do covet Coburn, it all depends on what they are willing to give up. It's a classic case of a team of with plenty of young quality offensive style players, with a huge need for a sound defenseman to help get them to the next level.

[aziz]

But, to stay on point, that's still not a reason that , if I'm Coburn, I'm looking to go to on the the 3/4 worst teams in the league.

 

for arguement's sake, things do change, and they change as teams upgrade.  chicago, boston, LA, pittsburgh, were all terribly terrible right before they weren't.  the right additions took each of them from doormat to contender to cup winner in short order.  edmonton has a ton of raw talent, and if they can balance it out with some blueline stability, a functional 3rd line, and reliable goaltending, they have the chance to be a for-real team (as opposed to calgary, who look to be horrible into perpetuity).  if coburn were to see himself as a key part of that balancing, i don't know why he'd have a problem with a move there...especially given an existing connection to the area.

 

not all players are looking for an already-built vehicle to carry them to a cup.  some might even prefer to be a key piece in building that vehicle.

 

as for the other direction, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if edmonton were willing to move that 3rd pick for coburn.  the last thing they need right now is talent that might contribute in 3-5 years.  they really need some wins in the near future.  while coburn isn't an all-star, he would be a large help to them, and he'd be a large help now.  

 

as the flyers, i don't make that move, but i can believe that edmonton would.  and i can believe coburn would be ok with it.  he's 29, not 39.  he has time to help build something.

[ruxpin]

that's still not a reason that , if I'm Coburn, I'm looking to go to on the the 3/4 worst teams in the league.

 

Completely agree about Edmonton.

[ruxpin]

We gave up a second and third for McDonald, so Coburn very well could be worth Edmontons first rounder this year, quality defenseman are at a premium. It all depends on how desperate Edmonton. Is. They have had high draft choices for years and they still are horrible. So maybe In their minds another top 3 pick isn't all that important, but having a veteran defenseman anchor the back end to help this team of youngsters might be way more important at this point. Their management is under pressure to show some improvement, so it does seem they do covet Coburn, it all depends on what they are willing to give up. It's a classic case of a team of with plenty of young quality offensive style players, with a huge need for a sound defenseman to help get them to the next level.

 I think what you say is plausible.

 

But I think we're back to the fact that Coburn has a modified NTC and would have to allow a trade to Edmonton.  I'm not sure a vacation home is enough to do that.  It's possible, however.

[ruxpin]

for arguement's sake, things do change, and they change as teams upgrade.  chicago, boston, LA, pittsburgh, were all terribly terrible right before they weren't.  the right additions took each of them from doormat to contender to cup winner in short order.  edmonton has a ton of raw talent, and if they can balance it out with some blueline stability, a functional 3rd line, and reliable goaltending, they have the chance to be a for-real team (as opposed to calgary, who look to be horrible into perpetuity).  if coburn were to see himself as a key part of that balancing, i don't know why he'd have a problem with a move there...especially given an existing connection to the area.

 

not all players are looking for an already-built vehicle to carry them to a cup.  some might even prefer to be a key piece in building that vehicle.

 

as for the other direction, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if edmonton were willing to move that 3rd pick for coburn.  the last thing they need right now is talent that might contribute in 3-5 years.  they really need some wins in the near future.  while coburn isn't an all-star, he would be a large help to them, and he'd be a large help now.  

 

as the flyers, i don't make that move, but i can believe that edmonton would.  and i can believe coburn would be ok with it.  he's 29, not 39.  he has time to help build something.

 

Damn you for going and making sense again!

[radoran]

not all players are looking for an already-built vehicle to carry them to a cup.  some might even prefer to be a key piece in building that vehicle.

 

You mean, like being the de facto #1 defenseman for the Philadelphia Flyers?

 

Coburn is in exactly the situation you describe, but on a team that's made the playoffs more than three times in this century.

 

as for the other direction, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if edmonton were willing to move that 3rd pick for coburn.  the last thing they need right now is talent that might contribute in 3-5 years.  they really need some wins in the near future.  while coburn isn't an all-star, he would be a large help to them, and he'd be a large help now.  

 

Look, we can agree to differ on the issue - as I do with Occams. And I believe I've said it's not beyond the realm of possibility for them to do so. Lord knows, general managers of professional hockey franchises have made much more egregiously bad moves. I think they could get much better than Coburn if they wanted to throw the pick around (especially "plus plus" as has been described). 

 

as the flyers, i don't make that move, but i can believe that edmonton would.  and i can believe coburn would be ok with it.  he's 29, not 39.  he has time to help build something.

 

I don't think the Flyers entertain the 3rd for Coburn by itself and I think it takes far more than Edmonton would be willing to deal.