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Playing to Lose - '83 Pens


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Tsn.ca has an interesting video that seems to be definitive proof that the Pens tanked to get Lemeuix. Check out the sidebar videos. 

 

Us Flyer fans have been saying it for years, but it's something else to have this little mini doc delve into it and what it reveals seems to be a humongous pink elephant that is comical to deny. The Pens most certainly tanked to get Mario. 

 

I'm sure this topic will be moved or something, but there's a very deliberate reason I did not post this in Pens forum. That would be explicit trolling. This is a topic for us Flyers fans and I would hope it would stay here. If this is not the spirit of the forum that the moderators would like to have here, well then I think my time is done here. This was the spirit of the original board... talk about everything hockey, but mostly how it relates to the Flyers. By moving things around that aren't specifically about the Flyers, I think we've lost that. 

 

 

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Agree 1000% with @hf101 .

I've run into the problem where it is very difficult to market this site to other hockey fans I know, because they come here, and see just about EVERYTHING shoved into 'Flyers' forums, and it is a turn off for many.

 

I understand the history of this forum and it's founding admins and posters....but if this site is to truly be a fan for "everything hockey", then yes, the site itself needs to reflect that.

Most fans, including myself, can live with the extra Philly vibe on the site....again, due to how the site was founded, it is very understandable, but topics regarding other teams simply should go where they belong.

 

There IS NO trolling if a legit topic is put up where it goes and a proper discussion comes from it.

 

 

To the topic of the Pens tanking...well, that could be and will be debated for years to come, however, I certainly hope, whether they did or not, no other teams follow suit.

Honestly, the NHL has enough problems in many other areas they are trying to amend, adjust or just flat out solve, the NHL, or the game of hockey does NOT need teams to go around throwing seasons just to get a certain guy in a draft.

 

Teams should always play to win, coaches should always coach to win, and GM's should ALWAYS do their jobs and put out the best possible product they can on the ice.

Hockey fans are too smart and you will lose many of them (and in the process not really attract any new ones) by crapping away a season or two just to get 'potential' in a draft.

My opinion on that anyways.

Talk about undermining integrity of the game.....

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I get what you're trying to do, avoid trolling and the inevitable ire of B21. But, since the source is tsn, marketed to all, around the NHL would fit.

I guess hf101 is right, and maybe we (I) should branch out to the other forums more often. Tropical's perspective is valid and valuable. This place only grows if we use all of the forums appropriately.

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1st - props to @hf101.  Great reply.

 

@Bakanekimiwa - to post this then act like you just uncovered some great mystery is a complete and total fraud.  The Pens tanked to get Lemieux. Period.  They didn't tell the players to lose on purpose...they simply called up players who weren't that good and traded/sent down those that were.  This is no great secret.  Even the coach at the time admitted it.

 

My opinion...you wanted to start another thread that gives you yet another chance to shite on the Pens and thought keeping it out of the Pens forum or even the general hockey topics forums would accomplish that.  Oops.  Posting this topic in the Pens forum would not be trolling.  Posting it in the Flyers forum for "just Flyers fans" is...well...chickenshite on your part. 

 

I can only imagine the backlash if I started a topic in the Pens forum called "Flyers - 40 Years of Failure"....only for Pens fans.

 

How did the Pens tanking impact your Flyers?  It didn't...no more or less than any other NL team. 

 

So if you want to leave because you don't like where the moderator puts your "Pens-Tanked" circle jerk of a thread then by all means - don't let the door hit you on the way out.  I'm sure Kuato needs more friends over on Silly.com. 

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I get what you're trying to do, avoid trolling and the inevitable ire of B21. But, since the source is tsn, marketed to all, around the NHL would fit.

I guess hf101 is right, and maybe we (I) should branch out to the other forums more often. Tropical's perspective is valid and valuable. This place only grows if we use all of the forums appropriately.

 

Great minds. ;)

 

Like I said - posting this in the Pens forum isn't trolling.  It happened after all.  But acting like its some big secret and the video shows new evidence is comical. What's next? Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone?

 

The OP had an agenda and got called out on it. 

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Agreed that this doesn't really belong here, but it's been pretty beaten to death.

 

I hate tanking. You should ice/field the best team you can, and I have no respect for coaches/GMs/teams that do everything they can to ensure a poor record so they can get a great draft pick. I as a fan may somewhat hope for the team to have a bad record (See Andy Reid's last season), but I don't want them to actively try for that bad record. I've been laughing ever since the Sixers ended up with the 3rd pick in the lottery, and even harder now that Embiid's injury probably just guaranteed that they won't get either Parker or Wiggins. And even then, at least the Sixers were sellers and traded a number of their better players, and didn't bench/demote them just to ensure they got more losses.

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Great minds. ;)

Like I said - posting this in the Pens forum isn't trolling. It happened after all. But acting like its some big secret and the video shows new evidence is comical. What's next? Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone?

The OP had an agenda and got called out on it.

Ugh, I think I need a shower.

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@B21

I can only imagine the backlash if I started a topic in the Pens forum called "Flyers - 40 Years of Failure"....only for Pens fans.

 

Reported for factual inaccuracy. It's only been 39 years of failure. Ford was the President, not Nixon...sheesh....btw if you want to create that topic I'd be happy to chime in :ph34r:

 

@AJgoal

What the Sixers did this season was disgusting. Makes me glad I haven't followed the NBA since Barkley was in town. I do love me some Big 5, another topic.

 

@Bakanekimiwa

I don't think putting this in the Pens forum would have necessarily been trolling. You hate the Pens, I hate the Pens (but not nearly as much I loathe the Rangers). I started posting on that other site in 2007, and I think you were there before I was. I would seriously encourage you to hang out, if you're looking for a Flyers slant there's plenty of that here. And I personally have enjoyed reading folks from all over the NHL, it has made me a more knowledgeable fan (ya I know, that joke kinda writes itself)

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Teams should always play to win, coaches should always coach to win, and GM's should ALWAYS do their jobs and put out the best possible product they can on the ice.
Hockey fans are too smart and you will lose many of them (and in the process not really attract any new ones) by crapping away a season or two just to get 'potential' in a draft.
My opinion on that anyways.
Talk about undermining integrity of the game.....

 

I don't know. I guess you could say Lemieux was potential, but as lousy as Pitts was then, they needed potential. The other aspect is financial. If you don't have a marquee player, you can't sell tickets. That era was pre corporate club boxes boom. So at the end of the day, while I agree that you should always play to win, if tanking in a season means winning for the next several seasons, why not? 

 

There is another thread about Eckblad and it reintroduces the Lindros deal with the Flyers. The Flyers were wallowing at that point and time. While they did not tank, they certainly put all their eggs in one basket for that move to get Lindros. I look at the Lemieux thing no differently. Just a different route (and certainly less costly). 

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There is another thread about Eckblad and it reintroduces the Lindros deal with the Flyers. The Flyers were wallowing at that point and time. While they did not tank, they certainly put all their eggs in one basket for that move to get Lindros. I look at the Lemieux thing no differently. Just a different route (and certainly less costly). 

Well yeah, except one route involves intentionally putting a lousy product out and giving your loyal consumers the finger in favor of appealing to bandwagoners. I'm not talking Mario here I'm talking about the philosophy in general.

 

Business smart? I guess. But completely devoid of integrity.

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My favorite hockey team is owned by my least favorite corporation, I should know better

 

I actually forgot all about that. And the pisser on that is that instead of embracing the fan base, they choose to stick it to them instead. You can thank the old man for that (he is schewd and far from stupid). 

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  I know for a fact my hockey knowledge has grown by leaps and bounds just listening to the awesome perspective that TFG, Yave, Joe T (among many others of course) bring to the table when discussing their respective teams. It's first class insight into opposing teams, I love stuff like that. As this site grows, we could have excellent posters covering virtually every team, that would be a great goal to shoot for.

 

On to the topic at hand, I know I'll take some heat for this, but I'm ok with tanking. The team exploring this option is taking a huge risk. The player could be a bust and the losing could be contagious and continue on into the next season. If you think player A is the guy you need to take the team to the next level, or save your team from moving....go get him....at any cost. It's really a moot point now anyways, with the lottery firmly installed. I don't know many executives crazy enough to risk shaming the franchise, losing season ticket holders etc just for the *chance* to maybe draft somebody. The JVR/Kane fiasco sits front and center in this line of thinking. One thing for sure, this theory will be put to the test next season...cause if ever there was a player who was "tanking worthy", it's Connor McDavid.

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As long as the players aren't deliberately throwing games I have no problem with "tanking". Personally I don't think there is such a thing. The Sixers are probably the best current example, management is being smart and doing what they think gives the team the best chance to win a championship. If they are smart within a year or so the team could be stacked for a decade. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are an awful lot of Phillies fans (and writers for the Inquirer and DN) who want the Phillies to "tank" by trading Lee, Hamels, Utley and whoever else can bring a decent return. I disagree in the case of the Phillies because I think these guys could still win it all (incurable optimist that I am) and also because prospects in baseball are the biggest crapshoots of all. But not because I think it would be unethical or anything like that.

 

Flyers fans haven't had to think too much about the prospect of tanking because the team is rarely bad enough to even consider it. Of course the flip side of that is that being a rich team the Flyers can afford to throw money at veteran players pretty much whenever the mood strikes. And a lot of good that's done us in the last 40 years. But hey, at least we didn't "tank".

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We've beaten this topic to death worse than this article ever will. I can't even FIND the article but I already know what it says. Yes the Pens made some moves over the last ten games or so that all but assured a drop in standings. Just like the Devils did. But isn't that common?

What do losing teams do at the trade deadline? Exactly what the Pens did. They sold off Randy Carlyle for a top draft pick (Doug Bodger). They were a losing franchise all year, do the last ten games really matter? They sent a 4.2 GAA goalie down for a goalie who'd never played in the NHL before and ended up with a 6.00 GAA. Does it matter?

Yes the general manager told the coach "we won't get upset about losing" clearly indicating it didnt matter anymore. But their season was already over. They were already eliminated.

The Devils were mad we "out tanked" them the last ten games or whatever it was. So what? How many Flyers fans wanted the Flyers to lose out once they knew they weren't making the playoffs? A lot of hands just went up. And if it were for Lemieux or Crosby or maybe MacDavid who would encourage it again?

I don't know why this remains a topic people have like it somehow taints our franchise. The team genuinely sucked and then won. Went back to genuinely sucking then won again. Small markets often endure such cycles in sports. The salary cap is helping with that in football and hockey. I wish my teams never sucked, but they have (and the Pirates still do frequently). But does any of this really matter? Does it change anything? No.

I'm more worried about who my coach is. What our philosophy will become. Who will be signed and who will not. Who we will draft. I'm worried about winning again. As all of us should be right now. No matter what team you follow.

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Flyers fans haven't had to think too much about the prospect of tanking because the team is rarely bad enough to even consider it.

 

Yeah, and the one year that they did suck (worst in franchise history), they did not even get the best player (kane). 

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I don't know why this remains a topic people have like it somehow taints our franchise.

 

 

well you know..."tanking" - sounds pretty bad in any profession but in sports, professional sports? O the humanity... How dare they? Unforgivable! etc. etc. Except the outcry is all b.s. If another Mario was going #1 and the Flyers were in the running for him I'd want them to do everything short of deliberately throwing the games to land him.

 

Your Pens' history is unique because of the quality of players who were available - once-in-a-generation talents like Lemieux and Crosby...Malkin.

 

It really started bothering people when Crosby fell to the Pens. It really seemed like he automatically fell to the Pens. Take that, mix it with the general disgust of Gary Bettman...the Mario years are finished, it looks like the franchise is too, Mario buys it, injects new life and now suddenly here's a kid who's not just as good as Mario, he's better!

 

Crosby comes along and then, to make sure he does surpass Mario we get Bettman's "zero tolerance" for obstruction, for minor stick infractions...and imo the league has yet to recover its balance from that overreaction. So it was bound to set off the black helicopter alarms.

 

But if that wasn't enough we have to watch the officials always give the Pens a PP in the last few minutes of an important game!

(i swear for awhile there it really did seem that way). :)

 

I don't know why Flyers' fans are still bothered over the Pens' history, or jealous over their luck or whatever. You guys won the Cup and nobody can take that away but during the Crosby years (so far) the Flyers are the Pens worst nightmare when PO time comes around.

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