CBJ trades Umberger for Hartnell

[Lucky13]

I don't mind the trade.

 

Nothing against Hartnell, lots to like about the intangibles he brings and I will miss the guy, but I definitely think his offensive production will continue to decline. Five more years would have been a looooong time watching that string to play out. Despite his sentimental appeal, this is a great time (maybe the last chance) to unload an unfortunate, unattractive contract.

 

Umberger's value is in his versatility and 2-way play. IIRC from when he was here before, he can play basically any F position on any line when needed, and acquit himself fairly well. On a team with as many mismatched parts & out-of-position players as the Flyers (thanks Homer!), I think RJ's versatility will be a big help to Berube in getting some lines set and young guys settled into their natural positions.

 

Other positives in RJ's favor are the shorter contract, low PIMs, and PK ability.

 

I also think he will be more trade-able than Hartnell if we want to move him later. Unless Hartnell starts putting up 25-30 goals again, his value will continue to go down, while Umberger's will remain fairly constant.

 

Looking forward to seeing what else Hexy has in store for us!

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

_{Can someone help me out here?  Please?}

 

_{We trade one bad contract for another bad contract (albeit a shorter one) and get a player in return that is not as good as the one we traded:  How does this translate as a good trade, as it stands today, for the Flyers?}

 

_{Umberger is not faster than Hartnell (when in the upright position).   I really dont understand this one...}

 

Perhaps, as someone OUTSIDE the Flyer fan base, I can shed some light, or at the very least point to some perpsectives that perhaps you had not considered:

 

First, the contract itself.

Yes, both are probably less-than-desireable contracts. That is black n white. You were NOT going to get rid of a bad contract (Hartnell's) and get a better one without the other team being completely brain dead.

Both teams had a 'problem' with the contract numbers, both found a partner to help alleviate it in different ways.

Flyers traded a longer bad contract for a shorter bad contract, if you want to look at it that way.

 

End result? Flyers are 'better' because they have less years to worry about on that 'bad' contract AND perhaps, at some point before that bad contract expires on Umberger, maybe he looks attractive to some other team, and the Flyers could move him elsewhere much easier than Hartnell.

 

Second, physical makeup of the players.

Yes, both guys are on the below average speed of the spectrum, however, Umberger, I believe, is a better skater and a hell of a lot more responsible defensively and disciplined as well. Both are big physical guys, yet how they go about that is quite different. Umberger goes the tough checking/hockey route, Hartnell goes the tough checking/beat your face in route.

 

End result? Flyers are 'better' because they traded a less than graceful 'slow' guy for a MORE graceful slow guy on the ice, who can also upgrade the team in the areas of defense, penalty kill, and discipline while still maintaining grit.

 

Finally, if true that Hartnell requested out, then the Flyers did well there too in getting a guy who's heart was no longer fully in Philly...and I ALWAYS maintained if a guy doesn't want to be somewhere, no matter who he is, get him out. Simply not worth the potential internal/behind the scenes stuff that could go on with a guy who is somewhere he no longer wants to be.

 

End result? The Flyers are better there too because they traded away a guy who didn't want to be there for a guy, Umberger, who is probably thrilled to be going back to Philly, knowing full well that the Flyers ALWAYS look to win every year and he has a chance to be a part of that.

 

I heard lots of complaints from Flyer fans about how the team doesn't have good defensive coverage, how guys turned pucks over, how guys weren't disciplined enough...on and on and on...

Well, RJ Umberger HELPS in those areas as compared to Scott Hartnell. So really, THAT helps the Flyers be a better team.

 

At the end of the day though, this trade is still a minor one in the big picture, and should be taken for exactly what it is: a numbers game that just happened to get the Flyers a slight upgrade in overall play, along with a 2015 draft pick thrown in.

 

Hope that helped you out a bit @murraycraven .....but remember, this is only a point of view from an outsider to the Philly fan base...  

[murraycraven]

Yes noone yet that i have seen has claimed RJ to be the missing piece to the Stanley Cup just a more versatile forward who will not fall nowhere as much.

 

Nobody on this side hinted he was the missing peice.   All of the other things you stated are fine and dandy but Umberger is not a better player than Hartnell.  Simpy stated.

 

Crosby also scored the same amount of goals as you too...

 

No it does not put it in perspective... we lost he trade IMO as it stands now. Lets hope he does not have any repeats of a healthy scratch like this past year.  

 

I am not a Hartnell defender but the trade really is a head scratcher to me.   I get the penalty minutes thing but I really put no thought of it other than Umbie can play the PK.  Which is nice but we also have other good PK guys on the Team.  

 

Similar stats on a shorter term is the bonus here.   Other than that I dont think we are a better Team today for this trade.  

 

Not trying to defend Hartnell but I just dont see us better - maybe a wash.

[ruxpin]

I get some of the consternation over this trade.  Hartnell was a good guy, a class act (his Facebook condolences to the "fake" Hulk Hogan, the glove charity, the #Hartnelldown thing, etc.), and just a good character guy.

 

But here's the thing:  This wasn't just a player for a player.

 

Without names attached.

Team A trades a guy with 5 years $4.75 cap hit and a NMC.  In the last two years, has scored 28 goals, 36 assists for .58 PPG    173 PIM for 1.57 PIM/G   +6

Team B trades a guy wtih 3 years $4.60 cap hit and a NMC until June 30 and modified thereafter.  In the last two years, has scored 26 goals, 36 assists for .43 PPG.   42 PIM for 0.34 PIM/G  =/- 0

 

So, the numbers are fairly even.  The PIM probably balances out the slight advantage in points for Guy A.

 

No names attached, now.    Which way is the throw-in draft pick going?   I don't know about you folks, but I would be stunned to find out the pick is going to Team A given it's already shedding $7.5M in salary in those last two years.  

 

So, before I am too considered about Hartnell going out---I complained incessantly the last two years that there was no good line for him and he seemed a misfit on any one of them--the fact the flyers ALSO got a pick tells me what both Columbus and Philly thought of the straight-up exchange.

 

After having had some time to think about it and reading some of the exchange on here, I'm actually quite happy about it.

[OccamsRazor]

Are you talking about the playoffs? That's a pretty small sample size. Hartnell isn't great but he has a proven track record.

 

 

Yes but i deal in the here and now and it's a what have you done for me lately and he i know hasn't done squat and couldn't keep up with G and Jake in the playoffs RJ i just don't know yet cause i haven't seen him in orange and black in awhile.

 

So RJ isn't the missing piece but when you weight in his versatility and discipline along with a shorter deal i'm ok with it all. I will wait to see him play first before i make any further judgements cause really anything else beyond this is mere speculation.

 

And well i don't have a crystal ball. And for now i'm going to give Hexy the benefit of the doubt he has a plan and we just have to wait to see how it unfolds.

[JackStraw]

RJ is more varsatile has plyed center RW and LW. Hartnell barley at times with two great linemates in Giroux and Jake play LW

 

Hartnell has played RW during his career, although not so much (if at all) with the Flyers. Just saying...

[ruxpin]

If anyone cares (and if this wasn't posted yet):

 

[jammer2]

  One thing that has not been mentioned is how great R.J plays in the playoffs. Who can forget the Montreal series a few years back when he singlehandely destroyed the Habs?  In 30 career playoff games, R.J has 14 goals, very respectable stat. In 91 career playoff games, Hartnell has scored 19 times in 91 games. That's a BIG swing in the Flyers favour. We will have 25 or so less minor penalties to kill off, keeping the primary pk crew much fresher. Those are the two main reasons I like this deal, but G and Vorachek will have a more skilled linemate which should spin additional creativity and lead directly to more points. The two years they save under the cap are huge also...so ....a win, win, win and win for me.

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

 

Holmgren to Hextall on hearing the draft pick is going Phillys way...

 

"You're doing it wrong".

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

 

Holmgren to Hextall on hearing the draft pick is going Phillys way...

 

"You're doing it wrong".

 

LOL!   I can only imagine.

[OccamsRazor]

All of the other things you stated are fine and dandy but Umberger is not a better player than Hartnell.  Simpy stated.

 

Hartnell maybe better offensively but RJ is a better defensive player.

 

They didn't lose this trade.

 

I am not a Hartnell defender but the trade really is a head scratcher to me.

 

I really can see why that is but i'm already exhausted with this subject and it hasn't even been one day. Can we let the guy play one game first before the sky falls.

 

Hartnell is fresh off a playoff series of 7 games where he and I scored the same amount of goals ZERO...it's all i got.

[JackStraw]

I heard lots of complaints from Flyer fans about how the team doesn't have good defensive coverage, how guys turned pucks over, how guys weren't disciplined enough...on and on and on...
Well, RJ Umberger HELPS in those areas as compared to Scott Hartnell. So really, THAT helps the Flyers be a better team.

 

You may be correct in what you say, but there is a context that has to be considered here. Umberger is (hopefully) not going to replace Hartnell on the top line. He'll replace someone else on the second or third line. So the differences between Hartnell and RJ as players aren't that significant because they will be filling different roles. Hartnell's role was to score goals on the top line. Umberger will not replace that, someone else will have to. As of now, we have absolutely no idea who that will be.

 

Umberger may contribute to some overall team improvement in certain areas, but two biggest areas of weakness the Flyers have are the blue line and scoring LW. Umberger addresses neither of those, while trading Hartnell adversely affects the latter. On a strictly value for value basis the trade may be ok (I think Hartnell is worth more but whatever) but from a roster filling out perspective it doesn't make sense to me.

[ruxpin]

I asked this in another thread, but this one is getting more traffic, so sorry for those aware of the duplicate:

 

Assuming that Umberger goes to the third line and Schenn is moving to first line LW, does the defensive ability of Umberger provide enough line stability that Laughton can be slotted in on the 3rd line and Coots move up to center the second?

[murraycraven]

I really can see why that is but i'm already exhausted with this subject and it hasn't even been one day. Can we let the guy play one game first before the sky falls.

 

Relax... who said the sky is falling and that he was the missing piece?   Seriously?  People are allowed to have varying opinions on a subject without getting a size 94 font in response right?

 

A whole 7 games?  Really, that is what you are basing this on?  So you would think that if Umberger was not a healthy scratch last year he would have eclipsed Hartnell's production?  Crosby and Malkin say hello for thier goal scoring prowess this past playoffs as well.  Again, I am not hating this trade but find it a bit odd.  Read the Bill M analysis and that is exactly the way I see it... it is perplexing to me.  

 

The positive I take away is we have a bad contract for 2 years less which is nice.   Umberger is a nice defensive forward and has decent numbers but I think it is a wash - not an upgrade.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

You may be correct in what you say, but there is a context that has to be considered here. Umberger is (hopefully) not going to replace Hartnell on the top line. He'll replace someone else on the second or third line. So the differences between Hartnell and RJ as players aren't that significant because they will be filling different roles. Hartnell's role was to score goals on the top line. Umberger will not replace that, someone else will have to. As of now, we have absolutely no idea who that will be.

 

Umberger may contribute to some overall team improvement in certain areas, but two biggest areas of weakness the Flyers have are the blue line and scoring LW. Umberger addresses neither of those, while trading Hartnell adversely affects the latter. On a strictly value for value basis the trade may be ok (I think Hartnell is worth more but whatever) but from a roster filling out perspective it doesn't make sense to me.

 

The bolded is VERY true...and it honestly never even entered my mind that Umberger would be replacing a top line player. I already said in an earlier post he is a bottom six guy.

That said, to be quite honest, a guy like Hartnell, IMO, really had no business BEING on a top line to begin with. At his best, perhaps 2nd, but Hartnell, to me, really has 3rd liner written all over him.

The guy scores 35+ goals one year and ppl think he is a top line goal scorer? Umm...no.....sorry.

 

That all said, I agree 1000% with you that Umberger does not really address the teams top line scoring problem. RJ WILL contribute goals, but it will be done from a 3rd/4th line role and perhaps maybe help set up a short handed goal here and there.

As for the winger scoring problem, THAT is where some other guys who are SUPPOSED to be scoring need to step their games up. The Brayden Schenns, the Matt Reads, the Jakob Voraceks, the VLC's (if he is still with the team come the new season)....or some other guys Philly has simmering in the minors, or maybe the Flyers have to go out and address the issue in another deal or FA signing.

 

I get that trading Hartnell for Umberger is a bit of downgrade offensively. After all, it is probably the main reason Columbus even did this trade...they wanted an upgrade in scoring over what they had in RJ.....Hartnell's other issues be damned.

But again, if top line scoring is what Philly needs now, then Hartnell was not the answer there anyways.

[OccamsRazor]

A whole 7 games?  Really, that is what you are basing this on?

 

Trust me it seems i'm the only relaxed around here and yes i'm allowed to use his last 7 games as a body of work to judge him...i mean it the most recent play we got of him and he didn't fit.

 

Period.

 

I'm here to talk to some of you guys down off the ledge not maybe you in particular but i'm here if you need me!   

 

I find this waaaay more entertaining that talking about Richie and Crater!!!!!!!

[JackStraw]

But again, if top line scoring is what Philly needs now, then Hartnell was not the answer there anyways.

 

He has been the answer for a number of years now, with a reasonable amount of success. He's not going to win the Richard Trophy but he's been the best the team has had. Now there is a hole that the team has no obvious way to fill.

[murraycraven]

Trust me it seems i'm the only relaxed around here and yes i'm allowed to use his last 7 games as a body of work to judge him...i mean it the most recent play we got of him and he didn't fit.

 

Period.

 

I'm here to talk to some of you guys down off the ledge not maybe you in particular but i'm here if you need me!   

 

I find this waaaay more entertaining that talking about Richie and Crater!!!!!!!

 

 

I heard that Hartnell asked for a trade b/c g was banging his girlfriend!

[murraycraven]

He has been the answer for a number of years now, with a reasonable amount of success. He's not going to win the Richard Trophy but he's been the best the team has had. Now there is a hole that the team has no obvious way to fill.

 

 

THIS!!!!!

 

This is what perplexes me unless they go out and grab somone - which they have no more money today than they did yesterday with the Umberger/Hartnell trade.  

[ruxpin]

Umberger is a nice defensive forward and has decent numbers but I think it is a wash

 

Largely, yes.  But then you add in the $7.5M in salary saved (presumably to help pay Bryzgalov) and the draft pick, and the trade slants to the Flyers.

 

Plus, Umberger can play left and right and even spot at center and can slide up and down the roster ala Raffl and Read, so it does make putting lines together a little more easy.  Hartnell is a good player (I guess) but he just simply didn't fit in on any line.  Wherever they put him he seemed to drag the line down (except for the 3-4 weeks or so a year when he was hot).

 

I'm not arguing with you.  I sympathize with your position.   Just throwing this crap out there.

[aziz]

Hartnell's role was to score goals on the top line. Umberger will not replace that, someone else will have to.

 

ok, wait.  i don't mean to be snarky, but this needs a reality check.  hartnell scored 20 goals last season.  umberger scored 18.  two seasons ago, they both scored 8.  you have to go back 3 seasons (jagr) for hartnell to really score more than umberger.  if you go back 4 seasons, umberger put up 25 to hartnell's 24.  there is NOT a night and day difference between the two in terms of offensive output.  hartnell has scored 18 more goals than umberger over 4 seasons, and 17 of those were with jagr.

 

hartnell scored those mostly from the top line and first PP unit, umberger played few minutes and with lesser linemates.  

 

it would be very easy to go overboard on the difference in offensive value between the two.  the truth is, there is barely a crack of daylight.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Yes....as much as I liked Harts, he was a line killer. He would flub up so many chances playing with G, it was very hard for him to maintain possession of the puck, due to his limited stick-handling ability in close. Creative he was not.

[OccamsRazor]

ok, wait.  i don't mean to be snarky, but this needs a reality check.  hartnell scored 20 goals last season.  umberger scored 18.  two seasons ago, they both scored 8.  you have to go back 3 seasons (jagr) for hartnell to really score more than umberger.  if you go back 4 seasons, umberger put up 25 to hartnell's 24.  there is NOT a night and day difference between the two in terms of offensive output.  hartnell has scored 18 more goals than umberger over 4 seasons, and 17 of those were with jagr.

 

hartnell scored those mostly from the top line and first PP unit, umberger played few minutes and with lesser linemates.  

 

it would be very easy to go overboard on the difference in offensive value between the two.  the truth is, there is barely a crack of daylight.

 

 

Once again thanks for your voice of reason and saving me the typing you sir are a saint.

[ruxpin]

Voracek / Giroux / Schenn

Simmonds / Coots / Raffl

Read/Laughton/Umberger

Akeson / Someone (hopefully not named VLC sucks) / Rinaldo

[murraycraven]

Largely, yes.  But then you add in the $7.5M in salary saved (presumably to help pay Bryzgalov) and the draft pick, and the trade slants to the Flyers.

 

Plus, Umberger can play left and right and even spot at center and can slide up and down the roster ala Raffl and Read, so it does make putting lines together a little more easy.  Hartnell is a good player (I guess) but he just simply didn't fit in on any line.  Wherever they put him he seemed to drag the line down (except for the 3-4 weeks or so a year when he was hot).

 

I'm not arguing with you.  I sympathize with your position.   Just throwing this crap out there.

 

 

dont hink you are arguing at all... that is why I asked for help b/c I am a bit confused over this trade.   I dont see it hurting us and I dont see it helping us other than getting 2 years off a bad contract which I like. 

 

I like Hartnell but I hate his contract and I will only have to hate Umbie's for 3 more years.   Like I said they are different type players but similar stats and I am not jumping off a ledge over this move.  Just a little confused but I do like the contract is shorter.