New cap 69 mil

[King Knut]

It wasn't age or wear and year it was a catastrophic concussive injury.

The guy would still be playing on the top line now if it hadn't happened and we'd all be talking about him having lost a step. But he's still be playing and I have little doubt he'd have played quite well through the contract even though he'd be well over 40 before it expired.

The contract length wasn't that bad of a gamble.

Catastrophic traumatic injuries like that should exclude players and teams from such contracts. Brats what insurance is for.

Traumatic Brian injuries aren't age specific. It could happen to anyone at any time, not just guys over 35. It's an asinine rule.

Only Holmgren would offer that deal not knowing the ramifications. It's not like the NHL changed the rules AFTER the deal. They were already in place...to keep teams from circumventing the cap by adding bogus year at the end of an older players contract to lessen the cap hit.

Flyers tried it and got burned.

[King Knut]

Non only Bettman would think saying tha Pronger is "allowed to retire" when unreality retiring would put the flyers on the hook for his full contract at a full cap hit until it expires, forcing them to pay against the cap for a guy who will never play again.

Only Bettman would suggest that's a legit course of action. Because only Bettman would be so cocky and butt headed.

So now Bettman is responsible for the Pronger contract? Wait... What?

[Lindbergh31]

Bettman hates the Flyers, that's why.  

That's why the Flyers fans booed him when he opened up the draft, got to love the Philly fans!

[Polaris922]

Non only Bettman would think saying tha Pronger is "allowed to retire" when unreality retiring would put the flyers on the hook for his full contract at a full cap hit until it expires, forcing them to pay against the cap for a guy who will never play again.

Only Bettman would suggest that's a legit course of action. Because only Bettman would be so cocky and butt headed.

Holmgren rolled the dice and lost. Does it suck a guy has a permanent injury? Yes even though its one of the dirtiest players in recent history I don't wish him harm. But that's the chance your GM took and lost.

The Pens had that worry with Crosby and still do. But don't blame Bettman for your franchise's mistakes.

[Polaris922]

Yah. We should be like other teams and tank on purpose to grab top line players and threaten to move the team to get the state to use tax payer money to build a stadium to keep a crap team that nobody went to watch.

Learn more facts before spouting gossip. Most of what you posted is BS. And our "crap team" has won a Cup in the past few years. How's that going for you? All that Comcast money and nothing. Maybe a little tax money is needed to win a Cup?

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Learn more facts before spouting gossip. Most of what you posted is BS. And our "crap team" has won a Cup in the past few years. How's that going for you? All that Comcast money and nothing. Maybe a little tax money is needed to win a Cup?

You may wanna check. The penguins tanked twice on purpose to obtain the top pick to get two generation players. Also they sat Crosby out of a game against philly because they didn't want to face the flyers in the first round. Sound familiar? Also they did in fact threaten to move without a new stadium. Read the paper!! Tax money was spent to build stadium. Stand we're empty before hand. Check the crap. What am I wrong about!? Oh please inform me.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

You also may wanna go check out pens play to lose in the forum you commented on and view the tsn report. Actually learn something about your cry baby penguins.

[Polaris922]

You may wanna check. The penguins tanked twice on purpose to obtain the top pick to get two generation players. Also they sat Crosby out of a game against philly because they didn't want to face the flyers in the first round. Sound familiar? Also they did in fact threaten to move without a new stadium. Read the paper!! Tax money was spent to build stadium. Stand we're empty before hand. Check the crap. What am I wrong about!? Oh please inform me.

The only time they're accused of tanking is for Lemieux and 1. It's highly debatable and 2. If they did it was smart as hell as he won two Cups here for us.

They never tanked for Crosby. You're saying so proves your ignorance to the facts.

They sat Crosby out because that's what smart teams do. Rest players in games that mean nothing to them before the playoffs start. Especially a guy playing his first full season in for years.

They threatened to move because they needed a new arena absolutely to get new revenue from it. If you knew anything about them you'd know why they needed new revenue agreements from a new arena and why they probably would have had to move if they didn't get it. They got ZERO from the old arena. Had nothing to do with attendance but no arena revenue and poor financing by the previous owner. I don't expect you to know anything though as your initial post was pure jealous spite and ignorance.

Go drive your little SRT 4 banger and leave hockey to those who take time to learn the facts.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Polaris922

[King Knut]

I'll try one last time to get through the steel fog and convey this, because you're close... but then I'm giving up.

You're right. Homer and Shero rolled the same dice when it comes to traumatic brain injuries.

Then why is Homer punished more because pronger's on a 35 plus contract if they both rolled the same dice?

Knees... Slowing down... Arthritis... Those are the dice Homer rolled.

A stick to the eye and a blind hit can happen when you're 35 or 25 and can end your playing career immediately both ways.

Again... This is literally what insurance is for.

Have a good one dude.

Holmgren rolled the dice and lost. Does it suck a guy has a permanent injury? Yes even though its one of the dirtiest players in recent history I don't wish him harm. But that's the chance your GM took and lost.

The Pens had that worry with Crosby and still do. But don't blame Bettman for your franchise's mistakes.

[Polaris922]

Steel fog? That's cute in a middle school kind of way

Actually you're missing the big difference here.

Crosby signed a 12 year extension at the age of 24. The Pens solidified a generational talent for the entire length of his prime in the league. A multiple Art Ross winner, Hart winner, and Lindsay winner. A roll of the dice because a concussion could end it all, but a regular buyout or LTIR are your backup plans.

Pronger signed a 7 year extension at age 35... When he was already showing signs of the abuse his body had taken and lost a couple steps. The Flyers signed a man in the twilight of his career to a long term contract to lock him up at big money values while spreading the cap hit out to leave room for other signings. They did almost the exact thing the Devils did to circumvent the salary cap issues, and now it has backfired because if his age. They signed this knowing full well what the rule was, and decided circumventing meant more than the chance of injury. So Holmgren rolled the dice and the franchise is paying the price for it.

That's not a slight by Bettman against the Flyers. That's not an unfair thing to have happen because you expose yourself to it knowingly and willingly.

So you see, they both rolled the dice, but in trying to save more Homer also risked a lot more. When you risk more, sometimes you lose more. Does it make you happy? Of course not. But is it Bettman's or the league's fault? Absolutely not. And is it 100% fair across the board? Yes, it is.

[aziz]

@Polaris922

The real kicker is that holmgren et al didn't realize pronger's deal counted as a 35+ contract. He signed it as a 34 year old, but was 35 by the following Sept, so, was a 35+. There initially was noise out of the Flyers camp to the contrary, but then they read the cba and everything went silent. Which is why I feel a $100k/yr deal salary to me would ultimately save them money and be a smart signing.

The pens have, imo, made a mess of their situation (imagine the first line - second line dynamic they could built with assets from a malkin trade), but the flyers screwed up true with the pronger deal.

Then again, he hasn't gone and played in Europe or refused to report, so it is still all LTIRable, so, really, no harm, no foul. The pens, meanwhile, are still trying to make a center/top heavy 1 and 1a line thing work, so...in the end, I give the Flyers the win.

Edited June 28, 2014 by aziz

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Well the flyers will be fine. Everything points to a vinny trade after the bonus on July 1st and dman will be shipped out most likely. The pens were a dominate team with crosby and malkin and the like but their window has closed now. Only way that window gets reopened is trading malkin/crosby and finding a suitor for letang and that god awful contract. Polaris , you wanna bust about the screw up with pronger, look no further then letang. Massive mistake signing him to that contract when he was healthy even!!!! Now they are screwed with him and the medical issues.

[sarsippius]

The 35+ rule is there to keep teams from signing guys to contracts until they're 50 years old and spread the cap hit thin. If the guy played 2 seasons then was too old to play anymore, then the smug righteous bs I'm reading here would be valid. But that's not what happened. The guy played 2 seasons and took a traumatic shot to the eye and can't play anymore. It didn't backfire because of his age.

I'm not pleading for mercy, the rule is what the rule is and should be enforced as it reads on the books. It should also read differently when the next cba comes up, because yes it ridiculous to LTIR a guy for 5 years because his career was ended by a life altering injury.

[Polaris922]

@aziz

 

That's my point.  It was just a mistake by Holmgren.  My arguing about it is in regards to those individuals who want to blame Bettman or the league like they're somehow being slighted against, when the problem was Holm-grown.  And you probably don't recall this, but I'm the guy who pointed out the fact last summer that Pronger's LTIR status really doesn't hurt the team one bit, just messes with his status of retired or not.  I don't understand why guys whine about it and try to blame the league which is why I get into these disputes. 

 

As for the Pens, we're not in the cap hell a lot of Flyers fans seem to think we're in.  I still don't know why that is being said.  The cap hike this year more than made up for the raise Letang got.  Now Orpik leaves and they trade away Neal.  Can we afford to sign NIskanen at what he'll be overpaid?  No of course not, but the Pens wouldn't overpay him anyway with the young players coming up the pipeline. 

 

@Jmdodgesrt4

 

If you think Crosby and Malkin are not going to have a chance at more Cups, their window being closed as you put it, you're nuts.  They're just coming into their primes.  Letang isn't a screwup yet.  The guy just set a career high in goals scored playing half a season.  The new system Johnston brings in will be right up his alley.  The guy is getting $7 million a season, but ask yourself what a Norris trophy candidate gets these days.  There are NINE defensemen in the league making over $7 million per year this season.  Letang is still young and has a long way to go IF his health holds up.  If his health doesn't hold up, there is always the buyout and LTIR route.  Either way he doesn't hurt the team too badly, so how is this such a bad contract?  I'm thinking we see him as a candidate for the Norris a few more times, and maybe even win one or two before it's all done. 

 

@sarsippius

 

The only smug BS I read in this post is from Flyers fans trying to blame the league for Holmgren's lack of reading comprehension.  It DID backfire because of his age, because that's the chance ALL of the teams take, and if he hadn't been right up against the 35 rule it wouldn't even be discussed. 

[sarsippius]

Potato potahto.

If he hadn't taken a stick in the eye we would't be discussing it. Would the age factor have kicked in eventually? Of course. But that is not the reason we are discussing it today or 2 years ago for that matter.

[Polaris922]

And if he'd been 33 when he'd signed the contract he'd be retired. 

Edited June 29, 2014 by Polaris922

[sarsippius]

And if he'd been 33 when he'd signed the contract he'd be retired.

Maybe, maybe not, my crystal ball isn't as clear a some people's. That's a hypothetical not related to the reason that he stopped playing hockey. A guy is on LTIR and can't actually retire without blowing up the team's cap. Clearly that state of affairs would not have existed for such a length of time without the injury. Unless you believe he was ready to quit playing hockey that day and the injury was just a coincidence.

Not blaming the league or Bettman or the easter bunny. I just think the rule needs tweaking somehow in the future. That's all.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

So you really think the bottom 6 and your goalie and your d corp is string enough to win another cup ? Hardly accurate and wishful thinking. Just like our d couldn't get us out of the first round last year and so far next year looks no better. Our forward group is light years ahead of the pens from top to bottom. You have two all word players but in the playoffs tighter checking is the norm. Well, just look at the playoffs just completed. Your stats were no shows. If teams don't have to worry about your bottom six your a lot easier to play against where line matches are key in the playoffs. Flyers? Which line isn't dangerous ? Well maybe the forth. But really that's it. Our d just couldn't and still can't move the pick or move with the puck to break the other way.

[Polaris922]

Fleury had a good playoffs this past season so yes our goalie can do just fine.  Our defensive corps is way ahead of yours for depth and puck moving capabilities when everyone is healthy.  Even losing NIskanen this season, we have plenty of depth there so that won't be an issue.  And I strongly disagree that your forwards are ahead of ours.  If that were the case, you would have had more offensive numbers than us, which you did not.  We had better goals for, goals against, power play...  you name it.  And that while leading the league in games missed due to injury.  We had three or four AHL players on any given night, and you're trying to tell me your forwards are better?  Our crippled team finished second in the east and fell just short of another conference final. 

 

Our franchise is going to add grit to the lineup and Dupuis will return healthy.  Bennett has a season under his belt and the new coach will (hopefully) fix what was broken in Bylsma's system.  Johnston seems to favor the run and gun Bylsma got away from, and honestly, that's what our lineup thrives on.  Do I think your Flyers are competitive?  Sure.  I'm not sold on what Hextall has done so far with the Umberger thing, but I refrain from judging yet.  But at this point, I still think the Pens have a better lineup through and through.  We can revisit it half way through the season and see where we stand. 

 

Back to the point though... to even suggest a "window closed" for guys like Malkin and Crosby is just jealousy and spite.  It's actually quite silly.  The Hawks didn't make it much further this season, did Toews and Kane miss their last opportunity as well??  Good grief... 

[doom88]

Polaris, nicely done with Holm-grown. Can't believe we didn't use that before.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Black hawks are much better team then the pens and flyers. Where they lacked this year was at the center position. How many cups have the pens come close with since their last? I'm not judging anything by reg season. I'm talking playoffs. Pens have always been a scoring machine post lock out.

[Polaris922]

Black hawks are much better team then the pens and flyers. Where they lacked this year was at the center position. How many cups have the pens come close with since their last? I'm not judging anything by reg season. I'm talking playoffs. Pens have always been a scoring machine post lock out.

Closer than your Flyers every season except one . I could understand your comment if Crosby & Malkin were 33 or 34... But at 27 that's just plain silly.

@doom88

Thank you. Lol

[aziz]

And if he'd been 33 when he'd signed the contract he'd be retired. 

 

i don't think so.  primeau was 34 when he played his last game, so contract was definitely an under 35...and he stayed on LTIR until that last contract ran out.  that was 2005, so under the capped CBA.

[Vanflyer]

Only Holmgren would offer that deal not knowing the ramifications.  It's not like the NHL changed the rules AFTER the deal. 

 

Well, all things being equal, Lou Lamoreillo is a pretty bright guy, and he trumped what Homer tried to do. Just saying. 

[Polaris922]

@aziz

Primeau counted because the Flyers paid him despite his "retiring". If a club does that he counts against the cap, though LTIR takes care of that for cap purposes.