COMBINED: "Whither or Not Vinny"

[aziz]

I just see too many RFA's out there every year worth going after, that would command mediocre draft picks, and yet nobody goes after them.

 

because offersheets generally aren't a good situation.  you have to offer something bigger than the owning team is likely to match, i.e., you need to pay more than they feel is worth it (and it's the offseason, the 10% cap overage allowance means it is almost impossible to offer something the other team CAN'T match), and/or have to give up draft picks enough to make the owning team feel losing the player is a good deal for them.

 

to boil it down, you have to offer a bad contract with distinctly unfavorable terms, enough to dissuade the team that owns the player's rights from matching.

 

and, it is a frequent complication that a team must own its own picks to use them as compensation for an offersheet.  generally not the hugest deal on the biggest contracts, as first rounders don't get tossed around all that much or all that far in the future.  the middle tiers, though, where it is seconds and thirds, many teams have long since shuffled those around.

 

in more specific terms, if you want to acquire pk subban via offersheet, you need to offer more than montreal feels he is worth, and you have to own your next 4 first round picks and be willing to move them for pk.  so, you are looking at bringing subban on board at ~$7mil+/year for 4+ years, and functionally trading 4 first round draft picks for him.  none of that is a good deal, imo.  it isn't that people are afraid to offersheet him, it is that first refusal is a very powerful thing in an owning team's pocket, and it is rare that an offering team comes out with both a player and a good deal.  and so it is rarely attempted.  

[radoran]

thanks @radoran ... again I was just curious.  So that is 2 teams out of 30.  I just don't think we can make that as a generalization across the league.

 

There have only been eight since 2000 and few GMs jump in front of moving cameras like Brian Burke.

 

As I noted above, in 2008 the Canucks offer-sheeted Backes from St. Louis. The Blues matched and a week later offer sheeted Bernier (Canucks matched).

[radoran]

@pilldoc

 

Digging around from one of our favorite past offer sheets, here's Esposito on the Gratton sheet (anniversary: August 4)

 

``When I saw Clarke's name on the contract, I felt betrayed,'' Esposito said. ``Like a knife in my back. I expected it from an Anaheim. I could deal with it from a New York. Even Chicago said they would try to make a deal, and if not, then they sign him to an offer sheet. But Philadelphia?''

 

http://articles.philly.com/1997-08-14/sports/25568347_1_flyers-general-manager-larry-bertuzzi-arbitrator-john-sands

 

And what would a Clarkie story be if not for "both sides of the issue"?

 

Esposito yesterday accused Flyers general manager Bob Clarke of betrayal. Clarke went after Gratton a week after accusing Rangers GM Neil Smith of being a ``vulture'' for offering restricted free agent Joe Sakic of Colorado a $21 million offer sheet. The Avalanche matched that offer yesterday.

[pilldoc]

Again @radoran thanks.

Again a few isolated instances. If gm's are going to get pissed about then just word it in such a way you can't make offers to RFA's. Point I'm driving at is I read to much into Polaris's post. I thought he implied that every time An offer to RFA was offered it was going to taint the relationship every time when in fact that has only happened a few times. I think the correct wording would be that by offering a RFA, it has the potential to taint a relationship. Which I would agree with.

[peter puck]

This unwritten rule we speak of sounds a bit like collusion Bottom line is Poile let weber enter into to Rfa status because he was obviously not offering what Weber felt like was a fair deal. He rolled the dice hoping the rest of the Gms would enter into to what amounts to collusion and it blew up on him. Gms crying unfair? It should be the players fussing about the Gms colluding with each other in an effort to gain an unfair advantage when it comes to contract negotiations.

[Polaris922]

Just curious...and I might have missed it, but can you give an example where a GM came out and flat out said offer sheets taint relationships with teams. I don't believe what journalists say anyway. They are just trying to make a living.

I know that there is a lot of assumptions and speculations that offer sheets taint team relationships (isn't this what the latter half of this thread is about). However, I have never seen a GM of team Y come out and flat out say I won't deal with team X because the gave an offer sheet to one of my top players.

Again, I don't keep up with every news conference or quote that any GM across the NHL says. I see the term "fact" and I am going to want hard proof documentation.

Anything else is pure conjecture.

The only player since the lockout to successfully sign an offer sheet and it not be matched by the team was Dustin Penner who moved from Anaheim to Edmonton. That wasn’t before Brian Burke challenged Kevin Lowe to a fight in a barn calling the move “gutless” and “an act of desperation for a general manager who is fighting to keep his job”.

None have been as outspoken as Burke and the attitude seems to be moving more towards acceptance of it as part of the business. But some have clearly not been thrilled in press releases and statements in the handling of such offers.

[Polaris922]

because offersheets generally aren't a good situation. you have to offer something bigger than the owning team is likely to match, i.e., you need to pay more than they feel is worth it (and it's the offseason, the 10% cap overage allowance means it is almost impossible to offer something the other team CAN'T match), and/or have to give up draft picks enough to make the owning team feel losing the player is a good deal for them.

to boil it down, you have to offer a bad contract with distinctly unfavorable terms, enough to dissuade the team that owns the player's rights from matching.

and, it is a frequent complication that a team must own its own picks to use them as compensation for an offersheet. generally not the hugest deal on the biggest contracts, as first rounders don't get tossed around all that much or all that far in the future. the middle tiers, though, where it is seconds and thirds, many teams have long since shuffled those around.

in more specific terms, if you want to acquire pk subban via offersheet, you need to offer more than montreal feels he is worth, and you have to own your next 4 first round picks and be willing to move them for pk. so, you are looking at bringing subban on board at ~$7mil+/year for 4+ years, and functionally trading 4 first round draft picks for him. none of that is a good deal, imo. it isn't that people are afraid to offersheet him, it is that first refusal is a very powerful thing in an owning team's pocket, and it is rare that an offering team comes out with both a player and a good deal. and so it is rarely attempted.

I read that article too about doing away with them and Button's quotes. It's a good one. But I stand by my comments that when making an offer sheet you have to expect the targeted team may just hold that against you.

The Weber offer was embarrassing to the NHL in my eyes. I just don't see Poile making any deals with Philly unless it really helps Nashville. A lot.

[jammer2]

  The only thing I learned from this thread is something I already knew....Brian Burke is a GIANT DOUCHE!!!!

[OccamsRazor]

  The only thing I learned from this thread is something I already knew....Brian Burke is a GIANT DOUCHE!!!!

 

 

It's like playing monopoly with one of your siblings and them then crying when you play by the rules and charge them rent for landing on your property, waaaaaaaaaaaa you're playing by the rules how dare you.

 

It's the lamest thing hearing someone speaking of unwritten rules....no such thing, there are rules and and there is not against the rules. 

 

And me personally i wouldn't care if someone got mad at me for offersheeting someone just wouldn't. The big baby will get over it or we just wouldn't do business.

 

Here is another example of someone breaking the unwritten rule in football.....sorry but it just dumb i think happened yesterday.

 

Bill Belichick just did the most Bill Belichickian thing ever.

The New England Patriots on Monday claimed rookie running back Tyler Gaffney off waivers after theCarolina Panthers tried to sneak their sixth-round pick through waivers and onto injured reserve.

Gaffney suffered a knee injury over the weekend that will require surgery. He'll miss the season, but when he returns, he'll wear New England's red, white and blue.

It's reminiscent of Belichick claiming injured Giants tight endJake Ballard off waivers in 2012 after New York also attempted to whisk the veteran by for a trip to IR.

After the Ballard transaction, the Patriots were dressed down by some for breaking a so-called "unwritten rule" that says teams should respectfully turn a blind eye to injured players riding the waiver wire.

We recall similar ire when the Browns in 2009 exposed sixth-round rookie cornerback Don Carey to waivers only to have the Jaguars snatch him up.

"That's the first time I've ever seen that," an official with another team said at the time, per The Plain Dealer. "I would have bet money that nobody would have claimed him."

Well, you bet wrong, sir.

Belichick doesn't give a hoot about unwritten rules, and shame on any team clutching to the belief that a talented player exposed league-wide is guaranteed to go untouched.

 

 

HAHA grown men crying foul.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000370732/article/patriots-claim-running-back-tyler-gaffney-off-waivers

Edited July 29, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[OccamsRazor]

Another read on these so called "unwritten rules"

 

Belichick has been accused by some of breaking an unwritten rule in the NFL that suggests teams shouldn't claim off of waivers injured players from other teams, especially during training camp when teams do everything they can to make the most of their many roster spots.

 

The Patriots made a similar move in 2012 when they claimed Jake Ballard. Belichick explained at the time that there are no unwritten rules in the NFL.

 

"First of all, there aren’t any unwrittens," he said. "As you know . . . you can’t negotiate a contract with a player while he’s under contract. You can’t negotiate a contract, release him and then re-negotiate another contract with him that was already done in advance . . . So a player is on waivers, then he’s on waivers -- ours or anybody else’s."

 

http://www.csnne.com/blog/patriots-talk/belichick-gaffney-he-was-available?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

 

Different sport but the same idea....yes there is no such thing as a unwritten rule....it's do whatever it takes within the rules to win. Period get mad if you want but people are just mad cause they got outsmarted....it happens a lot. And if you abide by some kind of unwritten rule you're asking for it and not do all you can to win.

[peter puck]

Big Bill is also known for breaking the written rules as well.

[OccamsRazor]

Big Bill is also known for breaking the written rules as well.

It wasn't a rule till he started something, now its a rule.

[jammer2]

@OccamsRazor  Nice find OR, I did not know about this. Leave it up to Bill to shake the tree, huh?  I just love the way Cheat'in Billy conducts himself. He could not give a rat's ass about what you think or say about him...he will do what is in the best interest of the Pat's....period. Bill has had it rough the past few years, didn't really have the stars on defense to carry out his defensive wishes. This year, he will have God's gift to CB's Darryl Reevis AND a healthy returning Jarrod Mayo. So, in effect, you will not be able to throw to one entire side against the Pat's scheme wise, and Mayo can be positioned over to the other side....it will be MUCH tougher to play against the Pat's this year....much tougher.

[OccamsRazor]

@OccamsRazor  Nice find OR, I did not know about this. Leave it up to Bill to shake the tree, huh?  I just love the way Cheat'in Billy conducts himself. He could not give a rat's ass about what you think or say about him...he will do what is in the best interest of the Pat's....period. Bill has had it rough the past few years, didn't really have the stars on defense to carry out his defensive wishes. This year, he will have God's gift to CB's Darryl Reevis AND a healthy returning Jarrod Mayo. So, in effect, you will not be able to throw to one entire side against the Pat's scheme wise, and Mayo can be positioned over to the other side....it will be MUCH tougher to play against the Pat's this year....much tougher.

 

 

Yeah they were saying Revis has returned to form and that Brady won't even throw to his side in practice....too funny. Yeah Bill don't give a damn.