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Kane and Toews sign new contracts - 8 years, $10.5M/year


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Kane and Toews  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Are Kane and Toews worth $10.5M per year each?

    • Yes
      2
    • No
      7
    • It's not that simple!
      10


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I'm starting to think having multiple elite players is more a curse than a blessing in a salary cap world.  Eventually, you have to pay them.  If you don't, someone else will. If you let them walk as a free agent (even if you improve the team using the cap space left behind) you'll be villified by the fan base and likely the local media...at least the uneducated members of your fan base (I say this because - for example - the "smart" Pens fan would understand why the Pens would trade a Malkin or Letang). 

 

If you trade them, you had better hit a home run on the return.  Craig Patrick whiffed when he dealt Jagr and that was the beginning of the Pens' demise that ultimately cost him his job.

 

Crosby and Giroux sure look like bargains now, eh?

very good point @B21.  I get that players want to make the top dollar, but in reality, most teams can't affortd multiple elite players.  Is this the NHL's way of creating parody in the league?  I think other teams are going to look very closely to what Chicago just did and see how that applies to them.  Gonna have to watch this very closely.  Could get quite ugly in Chi-town in the next few years.

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very good point @B21.  I get that players want to make the top dollar, but in reality, most teams can't affortd multiple elite players.  Is this the NHL's way of creating parody in the league?  I think other teams are going to look very closely to what Chicago just did and see how that applies to them.  Gonna have to watch this very closely.  Could get quite ugly in Chi-town in the next few years.

 

It could - or Bowman  can figure out a way to keep the Hawks contending each year even with 2 players (really 4 when you add Keith and Crawford) taking up so much cap space.  I've argued many times - the job of a Bowman or Shero/Rutherford is harder than that of a GM with less money tied up in such a small number of players.

 

You have less to work with but higher expectations.  I don't fault Shero (I think he put together a team together that could win the Cup if properly coached).  There are about 25 other teams in the NHL that would love to have the Pens' playoff record for the last 5 seasons. But...expectations are higher when you have a Crosby and Malkin.

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I know it is a tough situation to be in! But unless the cap grows more than any of us think it will, you just can't have 30% of your cap go to two players.

So the two superstar players will be playing with a lot of young guys. And young guys want raises too.

It's a tough situation.

Edited by Old School Hockey
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Crosby especially!

 

This is just a gut feeling, but I don't think either Kane or Toews even sniff $10.5M as individuals - in other words, I think it's the package that gives them more value than they have as individuals. Individually, they are worth no more than Giroux/Getzlaf money, and certainly not more than Crosby.

 

Believe it or not, Jagr ($11M) and others made more money than Kane/Toews on an annual basis - and that was 15 years ago in 1999-2000! So, as much as I have a tendency to see the salaries as inflated, that's some impressive cost control over a decade and a half.

 

Agree completely. 

 

I don't have a problem with them being the highest paid players in the league (by annual cap hit).  But highest paid by $1,000,000? That's amost 10%.

Edited by B21
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Agree completely. 

 

I don't have a problem with them being the highest paid players in the league (by annual cap hit).  But highest paid by $1,000,000? That's amost 10%.

 

Did Crosby take a discount? Certainly he could have gotten more than Ovechkin, and there's no doubt that he can clearly command to be the highest paid player in the league, period.

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Did Crosby take a discount? Certainly he could have gotten more than Ovechkin, and there's no doubt that he can clearly command to be the highest paid player in the league, period.

I think he did take a little haircut. He and Malkin's deals are very similar if not identical like Kane and Toews .  

 

I also think he's smart enough to know that his huge contract would not help the team win.

we bust his balls, but the guy wants to win, badly,  I get the impression the Harts and LIndsay's don't mean a whole lot to him.  

 

the Chicago situation is as many have said going to be interesting to watch,  they have a lot of young guys that will want paid.  Brandon Saad comes to mind, that kid is the real deal and I don't see how they can pay him , Imo the 'hawks would be a team primed for offer sheets .  They can try to trade Sharp and see what Hossa wants to do but 30% on two players is a lot.  And you can't not pay them, cutting bait when you have those two would not be tolerated by the fanbase. whether it is the "right thing to do " or not.

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Did Crosby take a discount? Certainly he could have gotten more than Ovechkin, and there's no doubt that he can clearly command to be the highest paid player in the league, period.

 

He did.  His hit is $8.7 million when he could have asked for more than OV who was the highest paid player at the time at $9.5.

 

Don't get me wrong - it's a lot of money to leave on the table but in the grand scheme of things, how much does it help?

 

Want to impress me? Take $7,000,000 per year.  That extra $2,000,000(ish) left on the table turns that $1,500,000 4th line grinder into a $3,500,000 3rd line scorer.

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Want to impress me? Take $7,000,000 per year.  That extra $2,000,000(ish) left on the table turns that $1,500,000 4th line grinder into a $3,500,000 3rd line scorer.

 

I'm not sure he can; at least not without the NHLPA having a fit because it lowers salaries for all players. 

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Did Crosby take a discount? Certainly he could have gotten more than Ovechkin, and there's no doubt that he can clearly command to be the highest paid player in the league, period.

 

 Crosby did take a hometown discount. And that in effect limited Malkin to the same. 

 

 But the thing with Crosby is, he could likely play for free and still make more money than most players with his endorsement deals. I know several grocery stores around here with lifesize cutouts I punch in the head when I'm shopping.

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I'm not sure he can; at least not without the NHLPA having a fit because it lowers salaries for all players. 

 

I was actually wondering how much...influence?....the NHLPA had on the Kane and Toews deals.

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I was actually wondering how much...influence?....the NHLPA had on the Kane and Toews deals.

 

That's a good question. I have no idea how things work internally - if anything, I imagine the NHLPA is more involved with the agents in terms of negotiating directives, no? Does the PA have to approve all deals? In other words, could Crosby go out and get a $3M contract if he wanted to?

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That's a good question. I have no idea how things work internally - if anything, I imagine the NHLPA is more involved with the agents in terms of negotiating directives, no? Does the PA have to approve all deals? In other words, could Crosby go out and get a $3M contract if he wanted to?

 

I'm not sure but I think the NHLPA has enough clout to turn a player(s) into a pariah if they would do something along those lines (such as Crosby taking $3,000,000 per year for example).  That said, any contract THAT far off the norm could not be used as a comparable for other contracts.

 

Capitals: "So OV - Sid signed for $3,000,000 a year for 8 years. Let's start there, da?"

 

OV: "Nyet. $10,000,000 per. Dollars. Not rubles."

 

But let's just say Crosby signed for....$7,000,000 per.  You are the Hawks negotiating with Kane and Toews.

 

"Look fellas. Really - $10,500,000 is nice but your families are set for generations at $7,000,000 per, no? That saves us $6,000,000 per season. Do you want us to keep Hossa and Sharp on your wings and win a few more Cups? Or do you want more money + Chuck Kobasew and Chris Conner?"

 

Easy for me to say - but I'd take the $7,000,000 in a heartbeat.

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"Look fellas. Really - $10,500,000 is nice but your families are set for generations at $7,000,000 per, no? That saves us $6,000,000 per season. Do you want us to keep Hossa and Sharp on your wings and win a few more Cups? Or do you want more money + Chuck Kobasew and Chris Conner?"

 

Easy for me to say - but I'd take the $7,000,000 in a heartbeat

 

The difference between 7 and 10 million dollars.... is a whopping 3 million dollars  which (to me at least ) is the difference between forever and forever and a week.

 

I don't think there is much lost or gained when we're talking money sums that are that large.

 

From the really cheap seats I take the 7 and keep Hossa and win some more championships.

Edited by mojo1917
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But let's just say Crosby signed for....$7,000,000 per.  You are the Hawks negotiating with Kane and Toews.

 

"Look fellas. Really - $10,500,000 is nice but your families are set for generations at $7,000,000 per, no? That saves us $6,000,000 per season. Do you want us to keep Hossa and Sharp on your wings and win a few more Cups? Or do you want more money + Chuck Kobasew and Chris Conner?"

 

Easy for me to say - but I'd take the $7,000,000 in a heartbeat.

 

 

 I agree. 

 

 But to play devils advocate, again you could argue Crosby could play for minimum wage and still come out a multi-millionaire. You could also argue Crosby took the hometown discount so the Pens could get some Sharps and Hossas, but ended up with Dupuis' and Bennetts. Which hasn't resulted in any more cups. So why not just take the money? 

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I'm not sure but I think the NHLPA has enough clout to turn a player(s) into a pariah if they would do something along those lines (such as Crosby taking $3,000,000 per year for example).  That said, any contract THAT far off the norm could not be used as a comparable for other contracts.

 

Capitals: "So OV - Sid signed for $3,000,000 a year for 8 years. Let's start there, da?"

 

OV: "Nyet. $10,000,000 per. Dollars. Not rubles."

 

But let's just say Crosby signed for....$7,000,000 per.  You are the Hawks negotiating with Kane and Toews.

 

"Look fellas. Really - $10,500,000 is nice but your families are set for generations at $7,000,000 per, no? That saves us $6,000,000 per season. Do you want us to keep Hossa and Sharp on your wings and win a few more Cups? Or do you want more money + Chuck Kobasew and Chris Conner?"

 

Easy for me to say - but I'd take the $7,000,000 in a heartbeat.

 

So would I. And I honestly wonder how much of the ratchet negotiation structure is sincerely the player telling his agent to get him X amount of dollars versus the agent really setting the stage in terms of expectations for the player.

 

I think non-guaranteed contracts could go a long way toward solving some of these incongruities - and it wouldn't even have to be an all or nothing proposition. For example, a contract might be only guaranteed for 50% of the length - if the team chooses to terminate the contract after year 4 of 8, say, they could, with no cap penalty. The league could even implement a 5% (of the total value) termination fee or something. The player gets some measure of stability and the team gets some measure of flexibility. 

 

I understand that it's been a non-starter in the past so we'll have to wait and see how the league fares over the next 7 seasons. But the current normal buyout structure is untenable for a majority of the teams.

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"We will give everything we have to this team."

Except a discount.... Lol

As for the Crosby discount, there was some grumbling about or from the NHLPA for a short while after but nothing really came of it. I can't recall if it was the association itself or just media hype.

Edited by Polaris922
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   I know players go their whole lives to reach this point where they get *the* payday. I can't help but think though, how much is enough.....do you want to win??  How can they put their team in this position, cap hell forever??

 

 I think B21 put it excellently, it is *almost* like a curse having 2 superstar players. Is it at the point where you can only have one and then have semi-elite players?  It should be *very* interesting to see how Chicago, Pittsburgh and Anaheim deal with their cap situations moving forward.

 

  FC made a great point on the endorsements etc. Why the hell can't these guys sit down, do the math and figure they are gonna make 20-25 mill a year regardless, so take a bit off the actual salary and just get a few more endorsement deals. Why can't the team give a under the table promise to pony up a 5 % ownership in the team once they retire. It's illegal under the CBA, but a wink, wink nudge deal...they are impossible to prove. This could have been one of the *many* ways they could have saved their cap. The team could promise multi-millions once they retire in return for coaching and or scouting duties. There are so many ways to do this....I don't see how these mega deals are conducive to winning....which should be the goal....no?

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@jammer2@Polaris922@brelic@flyercanuck@mojo1917@B21

I know a lot of people do not like Joe Thornton because of his playoff failure. Whatever, but if you want the poster boy for a guy who took a huge haircut to help out the team, it is him.

 

Thornton's contract expired after winning a Hart trophy and coming in 5th for the Hart the next season. Winning the assist title by a huge margin, and generally outscoring his teammates by tremendous margins. He was only 28 and would have gotten HUGE money ala Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin on the open Market(yes I know he is not as good as them, but at the time, he was close).

 

At the time, far FAR lesser players like Drury, Briere, Redden, Campbell and Gomez got contracts of 6.5 per to 7.3 million dollars for 7 years, etc

 

At the time, Thornton was still among the elite, best of the best players. A tier above the norm. Every time we heard "Thornton extended" shark fans were happy as heck, but scared to see for how much it was going to cost. In 2007-2008, he scored 96 points and was +18 that season at age 28, and the next two highest scoring Sharks were Michalek with 55 points, and Marleau with 48 points(Marleau was -19 lol). Guys like Drury and Gomez making headlines with their 7.5 million dollar deals. Imagine my jaw hitting the floor when I heard Thornton resigned at the lowly price of 7.2 million. He could have been UFA that year, and been given obscene money. He had been voted 1st, 2nd or 3rd best center in the league 5 seasons in a row. He ran away with leading a team in scoring and scored literally double the amount of points -19 Marleau.

 

He told the media he resigned so low because he wants to win a cup in San Jose and wants them to be able to keep the other guys.

 

What perplexed all Shark fans is that Marleau resigned for 6.9 million a year(no home team discount there), when he was a 48 point guy.......but he bounced back to earn it.

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 I agree. 

 

 But to play devils advocate, again you could argue Crosby could play for minimum wage and still come out a multi-millionaire. You could also argue Crosby took the hometown discount so the Pens could get some Sharps and Hossas, but ended up with Dupuis' and Bennetts. Which hasn't resulted in any more cups. So why not just take the money? 

 

I don't think Crosby's hometown discount was all that much.  Could he have gotten $10 million per? Sure.  So he saved the Pens $1,300,000 per - or about the difference between Chuck Kobasew and Chris Kunitz.  If he took $7,000,000 maybe Hossa (or someone of a similar skill set) is a Penguin.

 

Does he really make that much in endorsements?  Aside from Reebok, I've never seen him in a commercial.

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And now they need cap space when those kick in...

 

I probably should have clicked "not so simple", but I choose "no". Both players are great, but nobody should be earning more than Crosby (as much as I dislike him). 

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So would I. And I honestly wonder how much of the ratchet negotiation structure is sincerely the player telling his agent to get him X amount of dollars versus the agent really setting the stage in terms of expectations for the player.

 

I think non-guaranteed contracts could go a long way toward solving some of these incongruities - and it wouldn't even have to be an all or nothing proposition. For example, a contract might be only guaranteed for 50% of the length - if the team chooses to terminate the contract after year 4 of 8, say, they could, with no cap penalty. The league could even implement a 5% (of the total value) termination fee or something. The player gets some measure of stability and the team gets some measure of flexibility. 

 

I understand that it's been a non-starter in the past so we'll have to wait and see how the league fares over the next 7 seasons. But the current normal buyout structure is untenable for a majority of the teams.

 

I agree completely.  At the end of the day though, teams and players will find a way to structure the deals so the player is getting the "maximum" guaranteed money he's looking for.  In the NFL, it's the signing bonuses.  In the NHL - using your scenario - the contracts will be as frontloaded as the league allows.  Just like someone is willing to pay a superstar $10,000,000 per year there will be someone willing to set up...say...an 8 year, $80,000,000 deal where the money paid out in the first 4 years (reasonable for a player to actually play) is 75% on the total contract value.  $10 million cap hit but the actual salary each year (in millions) is 15, 15, 15, 15, 5, 5, 5 and 5. The NHL would have to allow that (unlike - for example - the Kovy deal - with 500K actual salary at the tail end of the deal).

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FWIW, Crosby makes $4,000,000 per year in endorsements. (Per Forbes. 2012).

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2012/11/28/sidney-crosby-tops-list-of-the-nhls-highest-paid-players/

 

This includes Reebok, Gatorade, Tim Hortons and Bell Canada.  This is the most of any NHL player.  Nothing to shake a stick at but not "OMG".

 

Crosby is widely considered the "face" of the NHL and one of it's most marketable players. Comparable players in other leagues...

 

Peyton Manning: $10,000,000

LeBron: $42,000,000

Kobe: $34,000,000

 

Even Carmelo Anthony ($9,000,000) and Amar'e Stoudamire ($6,500,000) make more in endorsements.

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Does he really make that much in endorsements? Aside from Reebok, I've never seen him in a commercial.

 

 Maybe they show a lot of them in just Canada, cause I've seen him in about 5 in the past year or so. He does Gatorade....think there is a shaving one...not sure. Probably have a ton of them in Nova Scotia, where people will buy whatever he pitches.

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It would probably be anathema to Bettman, but I like the way contracts are structured in te NBA there are option years and a thing called a mid level exception which teams use to fill certain roles with quality players or keep their young guys that have started to 'get it'.

Chi-hawks could use that to retain Saad for instance ...

The NBA is probably the most fair when it comes to labor relations/salary structure of the NA pro sports leagues.

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