Roenick on Mason, Flyers

[canoli]

that's a good way to put it FC. After all the seriously run-of-the-mill backups we pretended were starters Brian Boucher's rookie season was a breath of fresh air. Too bad it didn't last. After reading Aziz's post about Boosh it makes me wonder why Reggie never found a way to correct those flaws.

 

re: Roenick and his prediction - what the hell is he on anyway? Not only is he confused about the 2 Masons in the NHL but who in their right mind could look at last season and say "no way, Steve Mason can't possibly carry a team to the Cup"?

 

As a matter of fact it's just the opposite - finally, after many long years the Flyers' goaltending gives them a dependable chance to win.

[ruxpin]

boucher ruined boucher. especially the first half of his career, he had serious skating and angle problems. he tended to lock into his set position with his weight back on his skates, making play-following adjustments slow and awkward, and to compensate he'd stay overly deep in his net. he saw the puck well, and had good raw reactions, but that flaw in his technique tended to put him behind the play and allowed a lot of pucks to get around him.

no one ruined boucher, he was a backup level talent who fell to a backup level spot on the depth charts of whatever team he was with at the moment.

Brilliant post, aziz!

[doom88]

that's a good way to put it FC. After all the seriously run-of-the-mill backups we pretended were starters Brian Boucher's rookie season was a breath of fresh air. Too bad it didn't last. After reading Aziz's post about Boosh it makes me wonder why Reggie never found a way to correct those flaws.

re: Roenick and his prediction - what the hell is he on anyway? Not only is he confused about the 2 Masons in the NHL but who in their right mind could look at last season and say "no way, Steve Mason can't possibly carry a team to the Cup"?

As a matter of fact it's just the opposite - finally, after many long years the Flyers' goaltending gives them a dependable chance to win.

Reggie was a terrible coach, that's why.

[Polaris922]

that's a good way to put it FC. After all the seriously run-of-the-mill backups we pretended were starters Brian Boucher's rookie season was a breath of fresh air. Too bad it didn't last. After reading Aziz's post about Boosh it makes me wonder why Reggie never found a way to correct those flaws.

re: Roenick and his prediction - what the hell is he on anyway? Not only is he confused about the 2 Masons in the NHL but who in their right mind could look at last season and say "no way, Steve Mason can't possibly carry a team to the Cup"?

As a matter of fact it's just the opposite - finally, after many long years the Flyers' goaltending gives them a dependable chance to win.

Well... I for one don't think Mason has shown the potential to be the goaltender to CARRY the Flyers to the Cup. Is he good enough that if the team gets a good roll going he can be a competitive enough goalie to help them along the way? Yes. But not carry them ala Quick from his first Cup.

[ruxpin]

Well... I for one don't think Mason has shown the potential to be the goaltender to CARRY the Flyers to the Cup. Is he good enough that if the team gets a good roll going he can be a competitive enough goalie to help them along the way? Yes. But not carry them ala Quick from his first Cup.

 

Agreed.  Not unless he simply gets unbelievably hot and plays way above his head for several weeks.

[canoli]

Well... I for one don't think Mason has shown the potential to be the goaltender to CARRY the Flyers to the Cup. Is he good enough that if the team gets a good roll going he can be a competitive enough goalie to help them along the way? Yes. But not carry them ala Quick from his first Cup.

 

ah-hem, yes Mr. Literal you are correct sir! He's no J. Quick - though nobody knows Mason's ceiling yet - but when I said "carry" I honestly wasn't thinking Conn Smythe post-season - I just meant he can carry his load, not be the weak link that's all.

 

Whereas before Mason we all knew the Flyers were going no-fkn-where because of their goaltending. Lightning struck in 2010 and we almost squeaked out a Cup - but then it struck again at the worst possible time - ha!

 

Mason, for Flyers' fans is a real change for the better, a breath of fresh air. Personally I was convinced during his first game in the O&B that his mindfk gunk was a product of Columbus, Ohio and it would leave his system quickly. It did. He won't be the reason the Flyers fail to win the Cup.

[King Knut]

No.

What's more I think his quotes were taken out of context.

He's simply saying (or trying to) that Mason isn't going to steal them a cup.

He's right about the defense. Spot on. More goals come if the defense gets quicker and the transition game more potent.

But against his argument is the fact that the flyers didn't win the cup this year because they didn't score goals, bit because Mason let in softies or didn't up his game enough. Hell, they took Lundquist (a guy I'd assume JR would put in the top tier) to 7 games but it wasn't because Henrik stood on his head it was because the Rangers Defense didn't allow penetration and kept the chances to low percentage shots around the perimeter.

The rangers in the end lost the finals because the same defense couldnt skate with the relentless kings or keep up with their transition game which was constantly turning ranger rushes into kings rushes and getting the puck behind the rangers D.

Don't know. Why JR is hating on Mason so much, but he can have a nice warm mug of shut the hell up. He's half right, but I think if Hextall can achieve what he's talking about with the D-Corps, Mason is good enough to go far and maybe step it up in the big ones.

I'd still take quick any day and twice on Tuesdays but I see no need to throw Mason under the bus.

There are only two or three goalies in the league on the same level as quick and Lundqvist and it takes a whole lot more to win a cup than either one of them.

Someone posted a link to this story in the SB. It has some interesting thoughts from Roenick.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/roenick-steve-mason-isnt-answer-cup

The one that stands out, of course, is that Roenick doesn't think Mason can win a Cup:

That's certainly a reasonable opinion. But then he goes on to say:

Ok, so now I wonder if he even knows which Mason or which goalie he's really talking about.

STEVE Mason has not "moved a couple of times." He's been traded once. To Philly. Two years ago.

CHRIS Mason has moved around several times. He's not even playing in the NHL anymore.

Do you guys agree with Roenick?

[King Knut]

I will bet you cold hard cash the Penguins would trade Fleury for Mason in a heartbeat and sacrifice a virgin (as if there are any) down an abandoned coal mine in honor of whatever hethen god they worship in thanks and celebration.

Mason is not top five (and really we mean top two or three) but he's way and I mean WAY better than Fleury.

His team plays way better and with more confidence in front if him.

His stats are not top echelon because his team didn't remember they were hockey players until almost Christmas. The reason they had a faint prayer of making the playoffs last year was. Because Mason was so damn good.

Top 5? I'd say not really probable, but the difference between the 5th best goalie and Mason is a lot less than the difference between 5th best goalie and the best goalie in this league.

It's like saying Hextall wasn't as good as Roy.

Doesn't mean Hextall wasn't good.

A 2.5 GAA and a .917 Save% is top five? I think Mason is right there with Fluery in the ballpark of average NHL goalie. Nowhere near top five though.

[King Knut]

His mojo was that the team played much tighter d when he was in nets. They kept shots to the perimeter low% areas and guarded him like a precious fragile thing.

They couldn't keep it up against the Hawks.

To boot, both he and Boosh were playing hurt. I don't fault lileighton for being bad, I fault him for not telling the staff that he'd herniated a disk and couldn't play right.

I don't know if it'd work out like that. For all the (justifiable) crap Leighton takes for that final goal (and maybe the finals in general), the guy was special up to that point. He's a crap goalie, but found some serious mojo that spring. Not sure that Flyers make the finals that year with anyone but him. Goaltending is weird like that.

[King Knut]

Boosh was great and honestly should have been the flyers goalie all through the 2000's.

He got hurt in '01-'02 and Cechmanek took over and though roman played like a mad man, roman was actually a mad man. And a terrible NHL goalie. He was at stopping pucks but terrible at being an NHL goalie -which yes... Is more than stopping pucks.

Boosh was summarily dismissed after he kinda trashed the coach in the playoffs them he went to Phoenix and set an NHL record but could t secure a starting job anywhere ever again.

If Boosh isn't traded to Phoenix and is given time to heal and proper coaching instead of Lemelin, IMHO he'd have been the flyers goalie and a decent league performer throughout the 00's.

The way they dealt with him was one big mistake after another.

Yeah i know. No one has yet to do what Leighton did with his 3 shutouts in one playoff series versus Montreal.

And it was Boosh who won the game in OT to get them into the playoffs, that is Boosh above in my avatar (in case noone knows what that is) celebrating after making the win stop in OT on Olli Jokinen in the most famous OT win in Flyers history.

Boosh beating one of the best OT goalie in the league at the time Lundqvist.

[Polaris922]

I will bet you cold hard cash the Penguins would trade Fleury for Mason in a heartbeat and sacrifice a virgin (as if there are any) down an abandoned coal mine in honor of whatever hethen god they worship in thanks and celebration.

 

Uhh... you are incorrect.  Fleury and Mason are very much equal.  Their stats bear that out. I get your love fest for Mason, considering how happy all of you were to be rid of Bryzgalov, but don't go jumping the gun with the kid.  Just because he's an improvement on your team doesn't mean he's a top notch goaltender.  And he's certainly nothing the Pens would trade Fleury for as he's unproven at best.  If this is all based on Fleury having two bad post-seasons, keep in mind he's also had two really good ones, and now this past season posted a respectable 2.40 GAA and .915 save %.  I'm all for supporting Mason, but don't overvalue him at the expense of Fleury.  (And I'm not even a Fleury fan)  At least not until Mason proves he can do more than be mediocre.  

[J0e Th0rnton]

Uhh... you are incorrect.  Fleury and Mason are very much equal.  Their stats bear that out. I get your love fest for Mason, considering how happy all of you were to be rid of Bryzgalov, but don't go jumping the gun with the kid.  Just because he's an improvement on your team doesn't mean he's a top notch goaltender.  And he's certainly nothing the Pens would trade Fleury for as he's unproven at best.  If this is all based on Fleury having two bad post-seasons, keep in mind he's also had two really good ones, and now this past season posted a respectable 2.40 GAA and .915 save %.  I'm all for supporting Mason, but don't overvalue him at the expense of Fleury.  (And I'm not even a Fleury fan)  At least not until Mason proves he can do more than be mediocre.  

I'd take Niemi over Fleury. And I strongly dislike Niemi and think he is the weakest link. I'd also take Mason over Niemi, but not by much.

 

His salary is a big point of favor over Fleury. I think they Pens would sign that deal in a heartbeat

[Polaris922]

I'd take Niemi over Fleury. And I strongly dislike Niemi and think he is the weakest link. I'd also take Mason over Niemi, but not by much.

His salary is a big point of favor over Fleury. I think they Pens would sign that deal in a heartbeat

Then I can add you to the list of people who are judging Fleury by two bad post seasons and who are clearly ignoring his positives. The guy is not Lundqvist, and I consider him mediocre.

But he had more wins than Mason, tied Niemi, better GAA than both, better save% than Niemi (Mason had .002% better), more time on the ice, more shutouts, and went 6-2 in shootouts with one of the best save percentages in shootouts of all goalies, particularly with more shootouts to participate in. Fleury's stats are overall better than both Mason and Niemi, and did so with a largely AHL roster in front of him last season.

Now I'm not claiming Fleury is a dominant goalie. Far from it. But you're nuts if you think Mason or Niemi are better at the position. They are ALL THREE very much equals at mediocrity in my eyes.

Fleury has proven he can win a Cup and gets paid accordingly. Niemi has as well. Mason is a question mark. Does the contract difference offset that? Would you pay the extra $1.6 million for a goalie that's proven he can win a Cup and just had a good rebound playoff season?

I stand by my comment that Fleury and Mason are very much on par with each other these days. And certainly if the Pens were going to dump Fleury they'd be looking for more than Mason to fill that role.

[flyercanuck]

Then I can add you to the list of people who are judging Fleury by two bad post seasons and who are clearly ignoring his positives. The guy is not Lundqvist, and I consider him mediocre.

 

Two bad? .880 .891, .899, .834, .883 That's 5 of his 8 playoffs. His cup run he was .908 the worst numbers for a cupwinning goalie since team defence arrived in the NHL. 

But he had more wins than Mason, tied Niemi, better GAA than both, better save% than Niemi (Mason had .002% better), more time on the ice, more shutouts, and went 6-2 in shootouts with one of the best save percentages in shootouts of all goalies, particularly with more shootouts to participate in. Fleury's stats are overall better than both Mason and Niemi, and did so with a largely AHL roster in front of him last season.

 

He's an awesome shootout goalie.   

Now I'm not claiming Fleury is a dominant goalie. Far from it. But you're nuts if you think Mason or Niemi are better at the position. They are ALL THREE very much equals at mediocrity in my eyes.

Fleury has proven he can win a Cup and gets paid accordingly. Niemi has as well. Mason is a question mark. Does the contract difference offset that? Would you pay the extra $1.6 million for a goalie that's proven he can win a Cup and just had a good rebound playoff season?

 

 Fleurys bad postseasons far outnumber his good ones. He's the Pens achillles heel. Well, that and Bylsma. And meltdowns.

I stand by my comment that Fleury and Mason are very much on par with each other these days. And certainly if the Pens were going to dump Fleury they'd be looking for more than Mason to fill that role.

 

Ya, Mason + capspace.

 

 

[radoran]

 Fleurys bad postseasons far outnumber his good ones. He's the Pens achillles heel. Well, that and Bylsma. And meltdowns.

 

They have three heels? 

 

[AJgoal]

They have three heels? 

 

 

Yup, now that they've dumped Neal: Crosby, Malkin, and Letang.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Then I can add you to the list of people who are judging Fleury by two bad post seasons and who are clearly ignoring his positives. The guy is not Lundqvist, and I consider him mediocre.

But he had more wins than Mason, tied Niemi, better GAA than both, better save% than Niemi (Mason had .002% better), more time on the ice, more shutouts, and went 6-2 in shootouts with one of the best save percentages in shootouts of all goalies, particularly with more shootouts to participate in. Fleury's stats are overall better than both Mason and Niemi, and did so with a largely AHL roster in front of him last season.

Now I'm not claiming Fleury is a dominant goalie. Far from it. But you're nuts if you think Mason or Niemi are better at the position. They are ALL THREE very much equals at mediocrity in my eyes.

Fleury has proven he can win a Cup and gets paid accordingly. Niemi has as well. Mason is a question mark. Does the contract difference offset that? Would you pay the extra $1.6 million for a goalie that's proven he can win a Cup and just had a good rebound playoff season?

I stand by my comment that Fleury and Mason are very much on par with each other these days. And certainly if the Pens were going to dump Fleury they'd be looking for more than Mason to fill that role.

Sorry man. Winning the cup 5 years ago doesn't give his 5 consecutive bad playoffs a pass. I find, like niemi, his softies can utterly deflate a team. And Fleury is the dictionary entry in inconsistent 

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

 

"JR is a good PR guy for the league" Wait the same JR that said for certain fans to kiss his @$$? And that they are jealous of his success, and to not watch or attend games in the future. All this for fans showing their displeasure with the 2004-05 lockout.

 

Or the same guy that was under strong investigation for gambling? Or the one that cried for not being selected for the 06' Olympic squad? Or the same one that refused to show up to a game when he found out he was scratched? Instead he decided to go to a restaurant and get wasted and trash his coach and teammates.....

 

JR is a PR nightmare. I'd rather have Kenny Powers as the leagues spokesperson..... 

 

 

i think "nightmare" would be a bit overboard honestly.   Is he an idiot?  Absolutely and I really think he just likes the sound that comes out of his head when he talks.   He shoots from the hip but he is always up for a quote and fans love it.   Christ, Mike Richards was killed in this town for never talking...  You might not agree with what he says but at least he has an opinion when asked instead of giving the same old BS that everyone else provides.

 

I think he is dead wrong on this one and I think he is usually dead wrong but he is not bad for the league.  Fans like it and I would say moreso with casual fans of the game.   How many times did the NHL run a b/t period interview and/or short story that involved Roenick.   I remember the one when he was a Flyer and he brought all of the neighborhood kids to the game to meet Sakic b/c they all got good grades.  

 

Is he a goof?  absolutely... but there are a lot worse out there...

Edited July 22, 2014 by murraycraven

[King Knut]

Is your last name Shero?  How can you say I'm incorrect?  It's time for you to stop seeing the world through home town tinted glasses .

 

The point was I never said Mason was a top echelon goalie.  I just said he played better than Fleury did because he did. Stats are only a vague representation of what goes on and I guarantee you most teams in this league would want Mason over Fleury.

 

Are there more than 5 goalies most teams would want before Mason?  Sure there are!    But Fleury ain't one of them.

 

I'm basing this purely on watching them both.  Believe me, I will not hesitate to trash a Flyer player and goalie in particular when it's justified.  I'm not overvaluing Mason.  I have a fairly clear perspective on where he is.  I think your view of Fleury might be overinflated and that's where your reaction is coming from.

YOu must think Fleury is top ten in the league material and that's why you assume by me saying Mason is better that I think Mason is top 5.

 

I don't.  I think Mason might be top ten material and Fleury is probably top 20 material at this point.

 

The other point I was getting at is that There's a drop off after the very best of the best.  1-3 are amazing.  4-7 are a bit less amazing and the difference between 4-7 and 1-3 is much greater than the difference between 4-7 and 7-10.

 

This is why decent teams like the Bruins, Blackhawks, Sharks and Ducks don't seem to worry too very much about who their goalie is year to year.  They know that unless they're playing a Quick or Lundqvist or someone that it's probably not going to make or break them and they might just as soon address their position needs... which is exactly what I think the Flyers should be doing at this point because Mason may not be top 5 material, but getting a top 5 goalie is pretty damn difficult so how about sharpening up the D instead.

 

Fleury is still serviceable, but his star and Mason's star are going in opposite directions.  Sorry dude.  Mason's a Calder winner who found his game again.  Fleury's a cup winner who didn't exactly steal that cup on his own and whose team seems a bit out of sorts in front of him lately.

 

Doesn't mean squat.  Neither one will steal a cup for his team at this point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uhh... you are incorrect. Fleury and Mason are very much equal. Their stats bear that out. I get your love fest for Mason, considering how happy all of you were to be rid of Bryzgalov, but don't go jumping the gun with the kid. Just because he's an improvement on your team doesn't mean he's a top notch goaltender. And he's certainly nothing the Pens would trade Fleury for as he's unproven at best. If this is all based on Fleury having two bad post-seasons, keep in mind he's also had two really good ones, and now this past season posted a respectable 2.40 GAA and .915 save %. I'm all for supporting Mason, but don't overvalue him at the expense of Fleury. (And I'm not even a Fleury fan) At least not until Mason proves he can do more than be mediocre.

Edited July 22, 2014 by King Knut

[King Knut]

REggie was an atrocious coach and I honestly feel like his input probably hurt Boosh more than anything.

Think about all the goalies who came and went while Reggie was the coach?

Think about all the reports that Reggie wasn't really involved that much beyond camp.

 

The only goalie who ever came to this town and played better under Reggie was Robert Esche.

 

Contrast that with what Reese did with the likes of Emery (who would have won us a cup if healthy) an aging Boosh and Leighton?

 

Reggie was a disaster and was dismissed 13 years too late.

 

why Reggie never found a way to correct those flaws.

[Bertmega]

@murraycraven

 

That's a very fair assessment. Nightmare is strong too.

 

Billy Tibbitts = PR Nightmare (Red)

JR= PR elevated, but probably will not get a network sued. (I'll say between blue and yellow)

 

[flyercanuck]

They have three heels? 

 

 

 I'm not done yet.

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

 

That's a very fair assessment. Nightmare is strong too.

 

Billy Tibbitts = PR Nightmare (Red)

JR= PR elevated, but probably will not get a network sued. (I'll say between blue and yellow)

 

 

 

LOL!!!  Tibbits... the good ol' days!

 

I will add on more thing:  To say JR is a camera whore is the understatement of the past 2 decades

Edited July 22, 2014 by murraycraven

[Polaris922]

Is your last name Shero? How can you say I'm incorrect? It's time for you to stop seeing the world through home town tinted glasses .

The point was I never said Mason was a top echelon goalie. I just said he played better than Fleury did because he did. Stats are only a vague representation of what goes on and I guarantee you most teams in this league would want Mason over Fleury.

Are there more than 5 goalies most teams would want before Mason? Sure there are! But Fleury ain't one of them.

I'm basing this purely on watching them both. Believe me, I will not hesitate to trash a Flyer player and goalie in particular when it's justified. I'm not overvaluing Mason. I have a fairly clear perspective on where he is. I think your view of Fleury might be overinflated and that's where your reaction is coming from.

YOu must think Fleury is top ten in the league material and that's why you assume by me saying Mason is better that I think Mason is top 5.

I don't. I think Mason might be top ten material and Fleury is probably top 20 material at this point.

The other point I was getting at is that There's a drop off after the very best of the best. 1-3 are amazing. 4-7 are a bit less amazing and the difference between 4-7 and 1-3 is much greater than the difference between 4-7 and 7-10.

This is why decent teams like the Bruins, Blackhawks, Sharks and Ducks don't seem to worry too very much about who their goalie is year to year. They know that unless they're playing a Quick or Lundqvist or someone that it's probably not going to make or break them and they might just as soon address their position needs... which is exactly what I think the Flyers should be doing at this point because Mason may not be top 5 material, but getting a top 5 goalie is pretty damn difficult so how about sharpening up the D instead.

Fleury is still serviceable, but his star and Mason's star are going in opposite directions. Sorry dude. Mason's a Calder winner who found his game again. Fleury's a cup winner who didn't exactly steal that cup on his own and whose team seems a bit out of sorts in front of him lately.

Doesn't mean squat. Neither one will steal a cup for his team at this point.

Won't disagree Mason MAY be moving in the right direction where Fleury has just now recovered from two abysmal postseasons, but I'm sorry, I'm not judging what MAY happen. I'm judging what they did last season and where their stats show them to be. They're both very middle of the pack mediocre. Neither stands out above the other in any significant way to me.

And if anything I have a DEFLATED sense of Fleury these past few years.

@flyercanuck

Don't Mistake my comments as saying Fleury is great. Hes got more wins over the past five seasons than any other goalie, and i still think hes average. Just understand that I'm saying Mason is no better yet. He may prove otherwise if he sharpens his skills, but not yet.

@

Sorry bud just gonna have to agree to disagree.

I just don't see the little cap difference to be off setting when this is the last year of his contract. It should be make or break time for Fleury.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Polaris922

[flyercanuck]

@flyercanuck

Don't Mistake my comments as saying Fleury is great. Hes got more wins over the past five seasons than any other goalie, and i still think hes average. Just understand that I'm saying Mason is no better yet. He may prove otherwise if he sharpens his skills, but not yet.

 

 

 I'm not. But don't mistake 5 sub-.900 save percentage playoff performances as 2 poor ones. The first one the Pens may not have been a contender. But the 4 following the cup win (which was the .905 year and hardly good numbers either) when they were one of the favorites are really when Fleury solidified his status in the Dept. of Goats.