Alright, camp is coming. The Penguins, one by one

[nossagog]

As training camp is coming in a few weeks, I thought I'd try a thread on the team where we can poke at the players, one by one, coming up to the season.  Pluses and minuses of the team.

 

Okay, I know that this is a Flyers site and some of you will find it hard, but lets try to keep it to real pluses and minuses, and not petty stuff.

 

 

So let's start out.  The only place to start is with 87, Sidney Crosby.

 

Pluses:

Offensively, comparable to any one in the league.

One one of the best in the league in faceoffs.

Outstanding vision on the ice.

Has the drive to win.

Has one of the best practice attitudes out there to improve his game in areas that are deficient.

 

Minuses:

Can be take off his game by grunts.

Should play more on the PK.

Comes off as a whiner, some due to the constant TV cameras, but some due to his preordained next one title.

Has the injury bug.

Sometimes is slow to get back on defense.

 

Haters gonna hate, but if you were a fantasy owner, would you NOT take him?

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

I'd agree with your assessment of Crosby, @nossagog .

 

He's the type of guy Penguins fan rivals love to hate, but there is no questioning his ability, and any team that DOESN'T account for him doesn't belong on the same ice surface with him.

That said, yea, I like to see him get upset, do dumb stuff on the ice......if only because that means he isn't torching defensemen and goalies....especially MY defensemen and goalies...hehe.

The 'taken off his game by grunts' is VERY appropriate as sometimes he really does give more attention to certain players than perhaps he should.

 

He may want to take a page out of the Wayne Gretzky handbook in the sense that, Wayne always KNEW players were going to try to intimidate him, push him around, get under his skin, and for the most part, he dealt with that by perhaps saying a few things, then just skating away because he knew that he was much better than the offending player anyways...and usually proved it during the game multiple times over.

Even better for Pittsburgh and Crosby, without Sid himself saying so, somebody needs to step up and run interference for him EVERY TIME crucial game situations arise and you got bottom six guys trying to bother him.

 

That sort of 'interference' was done often with Gretzky himself, Mario Lemieux, Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, and many others whom the teams knew would be targets for goons and agitators, and who also knew those guys were best when they were unmolested, focused, and ON the ice rather than the penalty box.

 

This would certainly draw criticism from players and especially fans, that Crosby "can't take care of himself", but yea...like THAT doesn't happen already. The talking can be done on the scoreboard and in the standings, if you are a Penguin fan. Simple as that. People are gonna think and say what they want anyways.

 

Number two to look at on the Pens, obviously, is Evgeni Malkin.

Number two on this team ONLY because Crosby is on it, he is certainly just about everyone else's number one if he were anywhere else.

 

My stab at a Pens player assessment:

Evgeni Malkin Plusses:

 

---Big, strong, hard to knock off the puck, and can hit like a freight train when he DOESN'T have the puck.

---Can very often carry lines and the entire team when he is determined to do so.

---Has very underrated playmaking ability...hey, its no accident that those who play on his line get lots of scoring opportunities...Malkin, in addition to being a scorer himself, is quite adept at FINDING the open players and getting them the puck in a hurry.

---Has underrated speed...yea, we know, people will say, "He is fast for a big guy". Uhh, he is fast...period....big or small guy. Doesn't look it because he is good skater, but it amazes me that when he decides he is going to backcheck someone, how often he actually catches up to them before they can do any real damage on his goaltender.

 

Minuses:

---Much like Crosby, he is prone to being drawn into petty squabbles and side show antics by agitators who know he is best when free n clear of any garbage.

---He hits like a freight train, but sometimes, I think he may OVER do it. Yep...when you are as big and strong as he is, no need to put all you've got into a check.....just a nice solid one from a man his size is enough to derail most other players. Sometimes goes for TOO big a hit, and ends up with a penalty of some sort, or puts himself so out of position for any other play, that he becomes useless until (hopefully) his team recovers the puck.

---Sometimes can defer a bit too much to the team's number one, Sidney Crosby. Why is it that when Malkin is on while Sid is out, he seems to play like an All World player, but when they are both playing regularly (not all the time, but often enough), it is almost as if he thinks, "Oh, I am number two, Sid is number one, I don't have to play as hard".

Uh uh...Sid or no, Malkin should ALWAYS see himself as the leader on the ice whenever he is out there skating or on the bench...same mentality that lets him dominate in Sid's absence should be the same mentality he has when Sid is off IR and playing as well....no difference...but CAN make a difference to his team in the standings.

[nossagog]

TFG, I'll wait on your Malkin points till tomorrow.  The one thing I wanted to get to on the Crosby points was the WWWD(What Would Wayne Do) statement.

 

In today's game, THAT is the biggest difference.  Players like Crosby, Giroux, Kane  etc.  are supposed to take care of themselves.  In Wayne's day, that just didn't happen.  If some little pest bothered 99, someone like Mary McSorley would just beat the crap out of them and it didn't happen again(oh, and the penalties probably evened out).  Those were the days where your star player had protection, its the unintended consequences of the instigator penalty.   You just can't retaliate after some little puke that's taking cheap shots at your star player.

[nossagog]

TFG,   agree with the pluses. Two peeves with Malkin. 

 

First, its like he has a switch.   Unlike Crosby, who rarely has a "coasting" game,  it happens to Malking a little too much. Like he needs a reason to play good instead of it just being his nature.

 

Second, he doesn't seem to fine tune his game.  I'll use Crosby as an example again.   When he came into the league, he was aweful on faceoffs. He worked and worked, and now he's one of the best.   You Sid after practice working on shooting, deflections and all those little things.   I just don't see the same thing with Malkin, its like he said "Well I'm in the NHL, this is what I am and will be".   Maybe this is related to the first item in that he just doesn't have the same drive to be the best he can every day of the week, not just for big games.

[Polaris922]

@nossagog

On Crosby I agree with most points except a couple..

I think the whiner garbage is all anti-player hype these days, and undeserved.

I think he gets back on defense as well as anyone in the league.

[nossagog]

Okay today's player, The Flower, Mark Andre Fleury.

 

Pluses:

Athletic goaltender who can bend and twist his body to make the seemingly impossible save.

Can handle a high work load.

Is absolutely awesome in breakaway situations(too bad they don't use shootouts in the playoffs)

Is a class guy in the locker room.

 

Minuses:

Is awful at playing the puck behind his own net

Loses focus and lets in the softy

Slides himself out of position at times moving side to side.

 

MAF still has the reputation that he chokes in big situations that has carried over from his junior days.  His biggest problems is probably

between his ears, and has gone to a sports psychologist to try to address it. I think he'll carry that throughout his career.

 

His career numbers are fairly pedestrian, 2.62 GAA and a .910 SPCT in the regular season.   He gets bashed as a playoff chock artist, but his 2.68 GAA and .905 SPCT in the Playoffs for his career are not much different.   I think one of the big things is that he loses more games in the playoffs because other teams crank down their defense where the Pens stays much the same.

 

For the money he's paid,  I really expect more though.  With this being his last contract year, he should be focusing on his game to play for that next contract.  Whether that is with the Pens is debatable as they have put some investment in young goaltenders.  This could be MAF's last year as a Pen.

[nossagog]

Another day, another player.   Today, Chris Kunitz

 

Pluses:

Has great chemistry with Crosby.

Big framed forward willing to go net front for screens and rebounds.

Goes hard into corners to free up pucks.

Doesn't take stupid penalties.

 

Minuses:

Needs a start player like Crosby to succeed.

Not the greatest hands on earth.

Losing his quickness on the ice.

 

Over the past few years Kunitz has fit in well on Crosby's line, and even with Malkin when Crosby was out of the lineup.  His game is played in straight lines up and down the ice, even more so now as at age 34, he has lost his quickness. He's coming off a career high 35 goals season last year, but again at age 34, can he keep up that pace in the coming year.  With three years left on his contract(not a bad cap hit), he needs to keep up the goal scoring or he becomes expendable.

[Polaris922]

Fleury has been a mediocre goaltender with two good seasons.  I'm disappointed in him, and though I like the guy, I wish they'd move on. 

 

Kunitz I love having around.  I think he's exceeded any expectations and holds his own with or without Crosby/Malkin.  Of course anybody's stats will go up with those two, but I think his go to the net style of play keeps him above a 20 goal guy regardless of who he is with.  

[yave1964]

@nossagog

Nice write up!

Crosby, best player in the game bar none period end of discussion. Anyone who says different is wearing blinders and does not want to acknowledge the fact. I love hating him, blowing off the handshake line in 2009 when your Pens lucked out against my Wings made me hate him, lol, but I respect the talent and the dedication that he brings to the game, as well as the skill.

An amazing faceoff man, he has to be watched at any time he is on the ice. The best of the best.

Fleury.

I love the guy, I think he gets a short shift, he has made it to two dups, winning one. He fell apart and had poor postseasons, a lot of goalies have done the same and bounced back, he may need a change of scenery somewhat along the line of a Hiller or a Miller or a Luongo, but I consider him to be near elite, very capable of winning another cup.

Kunitz, IMHO is one of the top 15-20 wingers in the game. Consistent and resilient, underrated, carries the rep that he is what he is because of his superstar linemate, which is sily, any player playing with a star is going to have a bump in stats, look at Jokinen last year with Malkin, but Kunitz while not a star is a solid player in his own right.

Keep them coming, great subject!

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Another day, another player.   Today, Chris Kunitz

 

Pluses:

Has great chemistry with Crosby.

Big framed forward willing to go net front for screens and rebounds.

Goes hard into corners to free up pucks.

Doesn't take stupid penalties.

 

Minuses:

Needs a start player like Crosby to succeed.

Not the greatest hands on earth.

Losing his quickness on the ice.

 

Over the past few years Kunitz has fit in well on Crosby's line, and even with Malkin when Crosby was out of the lineup.  His game is played in straight lines up and down the ice, even more so now as at age 34, he has lost his quickness. He's coming off a career high 35 goals season last year, but again at age 34, can he keep up that pace in the coming year.  With three years left on his contract(not a bad cap hit), he needs to keep up the goal scoring or he becomes expendable.

 

To me, Kunitz falls under the category as severely underrated...much in the same way a guy like Patrice Bergeron is over in Boston.

 

Those are two players that don't get near the same ink as some of their more well known and/or popular teammates, yet you look at what they've done on the season, and their production is right up there with the best.

 

Does Kunitz need a star player to maintain his production? Hard to tell. He's always had those types of players to play with in Anaheim and in Pittsburgh, so whether he actually needs those guys can be debatable, and we probably never will know the whole truth now that he is 34 and will be a Pens player till he is about 37.

So even if he goes off to another team after that, age will have taken its toll and we certainly won't see the same Kunitz  we have seen for the last several seasons.

 

He is one of those players that I've always secretly wanted playing for my teams.

Just a solid overall, on-ice responsible player that is as comfortable playing a defensive role as he is on offense.

 

I honestly can't see any real minuses to the guy....Pitt fans would know more....if he has lost his speed (I never thought he was a particularly "fast" player to begin with....good quickness, just nothing special), or his hands aren't so good, well, I don't see it, but then, those who follow the team know better than I on that.

If anything, the big minus on him now would be he is entering his 'past prime' years, and well, with that, he WILL slow down a step or two.  But that's just nature.

 

If Kunitz can adjust his game (ala Dave Andreychuk) to account for his loss of speed, he will STILL be a good contributing player and his minus can be offset by yet another plus due to his adaptability.

 

Chris Kunitz is just a classic example of a professional player who goes about his business, can play with star players, keep up with them, never get fully recognized for all his contributions by those outside the fanbase, yet at the end of his career, people will look at him and go..."Hey, this guy had an outstanding career!".....just like they will most likely when Bergeron in Boston retires!

[aziz]

Does Kunitz need a star player to maintain his production? Hard to tell.

 

is it?  i mean, the guy is taking passes from sidney crosby.  is there really a question that his point totals benefit from that?

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

is it?  i mean, the guy is taking passes from sidney crosby.  is there really a question that his point totals benefit from that?

 

Hah..I get what you are saying, but MY point was, since that is where we really ever saw him produce (along with some nice point totals in Anaheim before) we just won't ever know how he would do without those top players.

 

I agree that he definitely benefits from having Crosby as his center, as well as having had Getzlaf when he was a Duck, but will we EVER  know if he could put up points just as well with other players? We won't ever know for sure, especially since he will be a Pen for the rest of his 'prime' years.

It's easy to say that he wouldn't be as productive without Crosby/Getzlaf, but that would be the easy way out....and the most obvious...but FAR from the most conclusive take on it.

[mojo1917]

Kunitz has a great shot and plays a tough style, I think he is a very good player , I like hating him and making up stories about him like the time he punched a little girl in the face on trick or treat night.

He hates puppies too. Look it up.

I don't think he is team Canada good , but he is a player I wouldn't mind playing for my team.

The only knock on Crosby I have is his poor leadership abilities, I think he is the best player in the game, and like his work ethic. he has shown to be easily thrown off his game when it matters most since his concussions. I think this is a result of early CTE .

Malkinstien is Russian and ugly. So there's that, he has elite skill a great large frame though, I don't understand the dips in his production though, with his tools he could assault the record books. He most reminds me of 66 though in that when he's on the ice he is a constant threat to score.

[nossagog]

Kunitz has a great shot and plays a tough style, I think he is a very good player , I like hating him and making up stories about him like the time he punched a little girl in the face on trick or treat night.

He hates puppies too. Look it up.

I don't think he is team Canada good , but he is a player I wouldn't mind playing for my team.

The only knock on Crosby I have is his poor leadership abilities, I think he is the best player in the game, and like his work ethic. he has shown to be easily thrown off his game when it matters most since his concussions. I think this is a result of early CTE .

Malkinstien is Russian and ugly. So there's that, he has elite skill a great large frame though, I don't understand the dips in his production though, with his tools he could assault the record books. He most reminds me of 66 though in that when he's on the ice he is a constant threat to score.

The only reason Kunitz made Team Canada was 87, period.  No way he was good enough to make it on his own.

 

Malkin, I wish we could bottles whatever it is that makes him go on his ON nights, and spike his bottle on his OFF nights.

[aziz]

It's easy to say that he wouldn't be as productive without Crosby/Getzlaf, but that would be the easy way out....and the most obvious...but FAR from the most conclusive take on it.

 

i don't know, i think you are adding mystery where it doesn't belong.  if one of the best playmakers over the last twenty years is your center, you are going to put up more points than you would without him.  i'm not sure what is inconclusive about that.  the only real variable there is if there is some kind of chemistry problem with said center and for some reason things just didn't click, but i think we can all agree that is not the case with kunitz.  

 

now, what exactly his production would be without crosby, that's something we can't really know.  my guess is he'd be a 45 point guy if he were traded to, say, toronto tomorrow.  but that's a guess.  inconclusive.  production would definitely drop a good bit, though.

[nossagog]

Today's Penguin, hard working Pascal Dupuis

 

Plus:

Can play on any line.

Prior to the surgery, at 34 was still one of the fastest players on the team.

Great defensive player 5v5, and eats up big minutes on the PK.

Doesn't get drawn into the stupid stuff.

Willing to go to corners to dig out the puck for the money guys.

Absolute Team guy on and off the ice.

 

Minus:

Knee surgery ended last season has him still not ready for contact to start camp.  Will the knee affect his speed.

Wish he had better finish(my kid's and I refer to him as "Ol' Stone Hands").

 

As much as we make fun of his hands, every team should have a guy like him.  The throw in during the Hossa trade(Shero was great with these), Duper's is the consummate hard working type player that makes teams click.  Yes Crosby could use someone on his line that doesn't shank his passes, but Dupuis chases down the pucks into the corners to get the puck to the players.   His defensive play is severely under rated, and is a key cog in the Pen's PK unit that has been near the top of the league for the past 3 seasons.  I just love this guys energy and what he is willing to give.   At 35 and coming off of the knee surgery, its going to be an interesting year for #9.  Personally I'd rather see him on the 3rd line working with Sutter to make a true shutdown line like we used to have with ManBearPig-Staal-Cookie.     I could see a Dupuis-Sutter-Goc line being very viable.

[yave1964]

@nossagog

Okay, said everything nice about Crosby, Fleury and Kunitz, don't hate me for this one.

Just a body at this point. See Dan Cleary.

Like Cleary he got the most out of his talent, like Cleary, he had an offensive year or two playing on a top line. but has shown a clear sign of slowing down. After the strike shortened season in which he scored 20 goals in 48 games, and the season before where he had a career high 25 goals and 59 points, what nobody mentions is even before getting injured last year he in essentially half a season, 39 games had only 7 goals and 20 points. I am not going to claim to watch every single Pens game, but in the half a dozen i watched with him before he went down last year, the commentators continued to talk about 'what is wrong with Pascal' on a regular basis. They talked like he was a great guy, and certain he would bounce out of it, but his natural aging process seems to have robbed him of anything other than a third line role.

I remember watching 24/7 a few years ago, he hung out with Crosby, roomed with him even on the road, so many of those are unwatchable (like last year with my Wings, sigh) but i was entertained by Bylsma and the boys. Dupuis was one of my favorites from the series.

A fan favorite who brings it regularly? Sure.

Able to play top six minutes regularly anymore? Probably not.

Still valuable in a bottom six role? Yep, likely for a year or two tops.

[nossagog]

@nossagog

Okay, said everything nice about Crosby, Fleury and Kunitz, don't hate me for this one.

Just a body at this point. See Dan Cleary.

Like Cleary he got the most out of his talent, like Cleary, he had an offensive year or two playing on a top line. but has shown a clear sign of slowing down. After the strike shortened season in which he scored 20 goals in 48 games, and the season before where he had a career high 25 goals and 59 points, what nobody mentions is even before getting injured last year he in essentially half a season, 39 games had only 7 goals and 20 points. I am not going to claim to watch every single Pens game, but in the half a dozen i watched with him before he went down last year, the commentators continued to talk about 'what is wrong with Pascal' on a regular basis. They talked like he was a great guy, and certain he would bounce out of it, but his natural aging process seems to have robbed him of anything other than a third line role.

I remember watching 24/7 a few years ago, he hung out with Crosby, roomed with him even on the road, so many of those are unwatchable (like last year with my Wings, sigh) but i was entertained by Bylsma and the boys. Dupuis was one of my favorites from the series.

A fan favorite who brings it regularly? Sure.

Able to play top six minutes regularly anymore? Probably not.

Still valuable in a bottom six role? Yep, likely for a year or two tops.

Yave,  I'd never hate anyone who's expressing his views using valid points and examples. Which you do.   I agree, like I said, I'd rather see him on the third line, which would maximize he abilities.  When you hear pundits who talk about players who have the intangibles, he's it, and I think that at his age, playing on a third line, he'd have a lot to give to the younger players, like what Gary Roberts did in his last years.

[Polaris922]

I see Dupuis regularly, and at the risk if sounding like a Giroux, he's in great shape. I think this season is a comeback year for him, barring any knee issues. The guy has all the heart in the world. If he does t regain his scoring touch but still does the corners work for Crosby I'm okay with that.

[nossagog]

Okay, I've been lazy, time for another player.  Today let's switch to a young player who "should" be playing along with Geno on the second line,  Beau Bennet.

 

Plus:

Young player with a decent frame at 6'1"

Great Speed  on the forecheck

Excellent scoring touch with great hands.

 

Minus:

Could use to build up his starting weight past 190 lbs to use his size.

Needs a little work defensively, especially in the defensive zone.

For some reason was in DFB's doghouse, I cannot phathom it.

 

Beau Bennet excited me from the first time I saw him on the ice.  The flashed of brilliance in the neutral and offensive zones make me think that he could easily fit in permanently in a top six spot, starting out with Malkin on the 1A line.  For some reason, this was one of the young players that DFB would penalize with ice time if he made even the slightest mistake. Playing on the second line last year, he only averaged a little over 12 minutes of ice time, and in games was quickly moved out of his 2nd line position

 

I'm hoping that the new coaching staff will give him a good look and allow him to grow into what seems to be a good NHL career, and not favor what what should be third line grunts like DFB did.  I would love to see Beau get a true chance on the second line, and lets see what can come of it.

 

Free pass to Flyers fans,  LIMITED TIME ONLY!!!! 

 

The Pens could start out with a second line of Hornqvist-Malkin-Bennet(Beau).  Get em out now,  Malkin with a Beauner and Horny. Come on, I know you can't resist.

[yave1964]

Not certain what I think of him, I have seen him play exactly once in person in Columbus, he made zero impression. Last year was a lost season. No shame in that, it happens, injuries and never got on track.

My personal opinion is here where Dupuis can come in handy if he has anything left in the tank. Bennett might be better starting ont he third line through the first of the year to regain his confidence and get his sea legs. If Dupuis has enough left to move to a top six role, which I posted earlier and I doubt but hey, stranger things have happened, I would let Bennett get it going in a lesser role and move him into a more prominent position as the season rolls on.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  Where do you see Horny fitting in, perhaps a line with Crosby?

[nossagog]

Not certain what I think of him, I have seen him play exactly once in person in Columbus, he made zero impression. Last year was a lost season. No shame in that, it happens, injuries and never got on track.

My personal opinion is here where Dupuis can come in handy if he has anything left in the tank. Bennett might be better starting ont he third line through the first of the year to regain his confidence and get his sea legs. If Dupuis has enough left to move to a top six role, which I posted earlier and I doubt but hey, stranger things have happened, I would let Bennett get it going in a lesser role and move him into a more prominent position as the season rolls on.

I'd rather see Dupuis on the third line, and give Bennet a chance.  Dupuis fit is much better on a checking line, and who knows what he's going to be like when he comes back.  My other issue is that you have a player like Bennet who has natural offensive abilities, I don't want to see him slotted in a checking role early that inhibits his growth.

[yave1964]

@jammer2

Hornqvist can play, either line he should be fine. He has been a winger in need of a setup man, now he has him, 60 points either line, no problem.

@nossagog

I agree Dupuis is better suited for a 3rd line role, I am just saying I wouldn't rush Bennett after the lost season from Hell the poor kid had last year. I would start him slow is all. If he gets slotted top six and starts slow, it could be ugly. But if he starts on the third line and maybe the second power play unit, with the caveat that he plays his butt off and earns it, I think he will finish as a top six forward easily by the end of the year.

[Polaris922]

Bennett is hit or miss. He's there one game then gone for two. Partly Bylsma hating on the kid, partly something missing. He's young and needs to develop. I prefer him on Malkin's line with Hornqvist, and lets see what he can do with the space Malkin creates.

Leave Dupuis with Crosby and Kunitz.