Patrik Elias, is he a Hall of famer?

[yave1964]

I was writing the Greatest moment in New Jersey Devil history in my series of articles that nobody much reads and it reminded me of an article that I have been wanting to write, namely this one right here, Is Patrick Elias a Hall of famer?

First the raw statistics:

GAMES 1155

GOALS 393

ASSISTS 590

POINTS 983

In another forum we have been discussing whether hitting the magical 1,000 points gets you a pass to the hall, the consensus seems to be no. Elias has been a damn fine player for a long time for one team and is closing in on that milestone, whether it is a be all end all is another discussion.

He has won two cups, (2000 and 2003) and both times was his teams leading scorer in the regular season. He has appeared twice more in the cup finals, (2001 and 2012) 2001 he was the teams leading scorer and carried them to within an eyelash of a cup, and he finished second to Kovalchuk on the 2012 squad.

The Czech star has spent his entire career in Jersey, dating back to 1996, and his influence has brought in quite a collection of European players including friends Zidlicky and now Havlat. He is 84th all time in scoring in NHL history and should pass a good amount of players with a typical Elias year this season, and by the end of the year should be in the upper sixties all time.

His ten best comps using the similarities score listed in hockeyreference.com are:

Kariya Hawerchuk Mogilny Frank M Oates Geoffrion Alfie Trottier Theo

and Ratelle. Quite a collection. Some sure fire HOFers and some near misses, not a bum in the bunch.

He is a left wing, a position that gets short shift oftentimes for the hall.

_________________________

Now the negatives.

His stats are workaday, he never puts up great numbers, just solid, decent numbers every year like punching a clock.

He only hit 40 goals once, exactly once in 2000 and then he finished tenth in the league. He has only 3 all star games, only top five in goals once, top 5 in points once. He never led the league in any category or seriously made a run at leading the league either.

His postseason line is lower when compared to his regular season stats. He has 125 points in 162 games. Not a bad number but nothing that stands out.

He is 39 by the end of the season this year, so time is running out. With 3 or 4 more years he may be able to crack the 1,200 point plateau which would get him into serious consideration based off of his output.

He is a left wing and can double at center when the situation calls for it, injuries and what not, but he takes faceoffs like a man who just stumbled out of the stands, his career pct is .435 and his highest pct. ever is .456. That is his best.

So that is it. Thoughts?

[jammer2]

@yave1964  I just can't see Elias in the Hall. Very good, but not great. That does not cut it for me. Without looking, I'd be willing to bet that he never made the end of the year 1st or 2nd line all stars either.

[MadDevil]

I love Patty, but I don't think he's a Hall of Famer. He will end up with over 1,000 points, but he doesn't really have any hardware other than 2 Cups and some bronze medals internationally. For years he's been one of the better all-around forwards in the league, but he doesn't put up flashy numbers offensively and hasn't really been in serious consideration for many awards.

[yave1964]

@yave1964  I just can't see Elias in the Hall. Very good, but not great. That does not cut it for me. Without looking, I'd be willing to bet that he never made the end of the year 1st or 2nd line all stars either.

First team all star once, never really in the running any other time.

He is in essence the Mike Gartner of his day, Gartner put up more points because of his era and got in but was never once thought of as a superstar other than maybe a two or three year period. But because of the high scoring era the voters gave him too much credit and he slid in.

[mojo1917]

He has been clutch in the playoffs.

He has killed my team with regularity.

I would not blink if he were to make the hall.

I think he has as good a case as any guy on the bubble .

Two cups and he was the guy that scored the dagger goals .

[J0e Th0rnton]

First team all star once, never really in the running any other time.

He is in essence the Mike Gartner of his day, Gartner put up more points because of his era and got in but was never once thought of as a superstar other than maybe a two or three year period. But because of the high scoring era the voters gave him too much credit and he slid in.

I think Marleau is more like Gartner

[jammer2]

@yave1964  That's a pretty decent comparison, he reminds me of Gartner.

[ruxpin]

I like Elias as a player.  I'd take him on my team any day of the week (Giroux needs a left winger, too).

 

But I've never thought of him as a Hall of Famer.  In fact, at any given point in his career if you were to ask me "Who are the top 20 players in the league right now?"  he may not even make my list.  Part of that is because I would have forgotten about him, not because he didn't deserve to be (okay, I might have gotten around to him in the teens somewhere but I'm honestly not sure).

 

Even on the Devils among the forwards, right or wrong, he has has often been the "other" guy.  And let's be real, the Cups were bought and paid for (In a good way, not a Pittsburgh way) by Brodeur and various strong defensemen.

 

No.  Really good player--people said Gartner but I'd say Brian Propp--but he's not in the Hall for me.  That said, I wouldn't kick rocks with open-toed shoes if he got in (but I think it opens the door later to lesser players saying "b..b..bb..but Elias!"    see:  Neely, Cam).

[Vanflyer]

I probably would have added a "on the bubble" option. That is where he sits for me. 

 

He has had 5 stellar regular seasons out of 16 played (.85ppg).  He has had 3 stellar playoff years out of 15 played (.75 ppg). 

 

I really like the player, but I think we need to start drawing the line on HOF and for me Elias is just below that line. 

 

Number retired and Devils HOF, certainly. Hockey Hall of Fame- no. 

[ruxpin]

I probably would have added a "on the bubble" option. That is where he sits for me.

He has had 5 stellar regular seasons out of 16 played (.85ppg). He has had 3 stellar playoff years out of 15 played (.75 ppg).

I really like the player, but I think we need to start drawing the line on HOF and for me Elias is just below that line.

Number retired and Devils HOF, certainly. Hockey Hall of Fame- no.

This is perfect. Completely agree with every word.

[yave1964]

@ruxpin@Vanflyer

That is kind of where I see him too. I have a friend who is a huge Devil fan who has a ridiculous man crush on Elias and swears the Devils get the worst end of it in the New York Area and that Elias is the most underrated player in the game today, blah blah blah so I thought I would put this on here just to check others opinions as well. I would point it out to my friend but his mind is made up and he has no room for debate on the subject, but I wanted to see what others thought.

A damn good player.

One of the best, if not the all time best Devils forward.

A devils hall of famer.

His career numbers, if he plays for 5 more years at 60 points a year will look, peripherally like a HOFer but truthfully, with all due respect, I don't see it.

Thanks guys.

[Vanflyer]

One of the best, if not the all time best Devils forward.

 

Sadly, and perhaps its my age showing through, its hard for me to recollect a collection of "star" devils forwards. The best I can do is Lemieuxe and Madden (and he was more of a defensive specialist- great at SHG). It's allot easier for me to recollect star devil defensemen and of course Mr Devil, Brodeur. 

 

I don't know if I attribute that to my onset of alzheimer (I say that tongue in cheek as that is a brutal disease) or the fact that that the devils for years upon years have played an extremely boring brand of hockey. I am saying that as a hockey fan and not a Flyers fan. 

[yave1964]

Sadly, and perhaps its my age showing through, its hard for me to recollect a collection of "star" devils forwards. The best I can do is Lemieuxe and Madden (and he was more of a defensive specialist- great at SHG). It's allot easier for me to recollect star devil defensemen and of course Mr Devil, Brodeur. 

 

I don't know if I attribute that to my onset of alzheimer (I say that tongue in cheek as that is a brutal disease) or the fact that that the devils for years upon years have played an extremely boring brand of hockey. I am saying that as a hockey fan and not a Flyers fan.

What about Joe Cirella and Hector Marini?? (okay tongue in cheek and showing MY age, lol).

Yeah, the Devils have not exactly been known as an offensive juggernaut. Parise and Lemieux gave a part of their prime before moving on, though he is largely considered a joke because of his huge contract that he signed when he left the Devils, Gomez was a heck of at player at one time. Bobby Holik, Kirk Muller, parts of their career as well.

To me, the best forward in Devils history would have to be either Elias or John Maclean. Maclean was solid for a long time but a look at the numbers I believe clearly makes Elias the number one forward in Devils history. Of course if Parise or Claude Freaking Lemieux would have spent their entire career in New Jersey it might be a different story.

[Vanflyer]

I forgot about Gomez and of course Parise. I would also be remiss not to mention Kolvochuks (sp) cup of coffee. Who was the other russian they had that blew out his knee and went to the minors to circumvent the cap (and that the devils got their hands slapped for)? 

[Vanflyer]

To me, the best forward in Devils history would have to be either Elias or John Maclean.

 

Because of longevity, you have to go with elias. I think Jamie L. had a couple of good years there as well. 

[mojo1917]

Jason Arnott was a beast for them mid to late 90's.

[MadDevil]

I forgot about Gomez and of course Parise. I would also be remiss not to mention Kolvochuks (sp) cup of coffee. Who was the other russian they had that blew out his knee and went to the minors to circumvent the cap (and that the devils got their hands slapped for)?

That would be Mogilny. Just one of the numerous failed returns of former Devils since the 2004-05 lockout. Him, Malakhov, Arnott, Holik, Rolston, Shanahan, Dowd, Sullivan...now maybe Gomez. The only one that worked out was Sykora in 2011-12.

[ruxpin]

Because of longevity, you have to go with elias. I think Jamie L. had a couple of good years there as well.

Good call on Jamie L.

But you really have to dig deep and think long and hard, don't you? And always the caveat "for a couple of years" or "if only they'd stayed."

Because, as already started, it's a goalie and defenseman team first and foremost.

They've had good quality forwards but no one that would ever make the "if I were building a team around a player" list.

It's kind of one more testament to their ability to win several Cups and several more finals appearances.

[Vanflyer]

They've had good quality forwards but no one that would ever make the "if I were building a team around a player" list.

It's kind of one more testament to their ability to win several Cups and several more finals appearances.

 

Yes and Yes. 

 

I was remiss on both parise and gomez, but outside of that and Elias and Jamie, you really have to scratch your head (at least I do) to come up with a "star" forward for them for the exact reason you stated. 

[jammer2]

  I find if you have to him and ha on whether a player is Hall worthy, it usually works out that he does not belong. They are not all slam dunks, but I don't think anyone would really say that Elias is one of the better players of his era.

[fanaticV3.0]

I was writing the Greatest moment in New Jersey Devil history in my series of articles that nobody much reads and it reminded me of an article that I have been wanting to write, namely this one right here, Is Patrick Elias a Hall of famer?

First the raw statistics:

GAMES 1155

GOALS 393

ASSISTS 590

POINTS 983

In another forum we have been discussing whether hitting the magical 1,000 points gets you a pass to the hall, the consensus seems to be no. Elias has been a damn fine player for a long time for one team and is closing in on that milestone, whether it is a be all end all is another discussion.

He has won two cups, (2000 and 2003) and both times was his teams leading scorer in the regular season. He has appeared twice more in the cup finals, (2001 and 2012) 2001 he was the teams leading scorer and carried them to within an eyelash of a cup, and he finished second to Kovalchuk on the 2012 squad.

The Czech star has spent his entire career in Jersey, dating back to 1996, and his influence has brought in quite a collection of European players including friends Zidlicky and now Havlat. He is 84th all time in scoring in NHL history and should pass a good amount of players with a typical Elias year this season, and by the end of the year should be in the upper sixties all time.

His ten best comps using the similarities score listed in hockeyreference.com are:

Kariya Hawerchuk Mogilny Frank M Oates Geoffrion Alfie Trottier Theo

and Ratelle. Quite a collection. Some sure fire HOFers and some near misses, not a bum in the bunch.

He is a left wing, a position that gets short shift oftentimes for the hall.

_________________________

Now the negatives.

His stats are workaday, he never puts up great numbers, just solid, decent numbers every year like punching a clock.

He only hit 40 goals once, exactly once in 2000 and then he finished tenth in the league. He has only 3 all star games, only top five in goals once, top 5 in points once. He never led the league in any category or seriously made a run at leading the league either.

His postseason line is lower when compared to his regular season stats. He has 125 points in 162 games. Not a bad number but nothing that stands out.

He is 39 by the end of the season this year, so time is running out. With 3 or 4 more years he may be able to crack the 1,200 point plateau which would get him into serious consideration based off of his output.

He is a left wing and can double at center when the situation calls for it, injuries and what not, but he takes faceoffs like a man who just stumbled out of the stands, his career pct is .435 and his highest pct. ever is .456. That is his best.

So that is it. Thoughts?

 

I still think it's not a guarantee, but I also think you have to look at the reverse side of the argument. Elias is a perfect example of that, particularly when you consider where he has played his career. 983 points, on that team, is pretty impressive. He was the guy in that sense. If he had even a little more talent around him he has noticeably better numbers. I'm not saying he's necessarily a hall-worthy player, just that you have to consider where he played and who he played with.

[JR Ewing]

Time once again for the Keltner list adapted for hockey:

 

1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?

No

2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?

Can't say that I ever heard that sort of talk. No.

3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

Yes. Goals (twice), Assists (twice), Points (three times) [1]

4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

He led the league in +/-, though I would consider this to be a pretty controversial one to give a point for, as it's extremely context sensitive, nor is it close to universally accepted. [1]

5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?

Yes, four deep playoff runs. [2]

6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?

Yes, in 2000 and 2003. [3]

7. Was he ever a team Captain?

Yes, in 2007 and 2008. [3]

8. Was he ever team Captain of a Stanley Cup winner?

No. [3]

9. Did many regard him to be an excellent defensive player?

He had respect for his ability to play defense, but was not considered among the top of the group. No. [3]

10. Did many regard his physical play/hitting to be an intimidating factor? (NOTE: We're not looking for pests here)

No. [3]

11. Did he play alot/well after he passed his prime?

Yes. At 37, he was playing just under 18 minutes per night,  scoring 0.8 PTS/GP, and is still a positive possession player. [4]

12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?

Yes, he was 1st AS in 2001. [5]

13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?

Of the ten most statistically similar players, 6 are in the HHOF. [6]

14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections)

No [6]

15. Did he win a Conn Smythe Trophy? (pre-1965: see resources)

No [6]

16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)

I see none. [6]

17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?

We're not talking about Howie Morenz, Rocket Richard, Wayne Gretzky, etc. No. [6]

18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played?

No, though this category is also extremely hard to score in.

 

Total: 6

 

Again, the scale:

13+ = Best of the best
11-12 = Unquestioned HOFer
9-10 = Great player
5-8 = Belongs in HOF
4 = Borderline
3 = Weak Argument
1-2 = Completely Unqualified

 

According to this quiz, Elias makes a decent argument.

[jammer2]

@JR Ewing    I like how the Keltner list includes things like #10. I love the idea of having physicality and or intimidation factored into the equation. I don't think a player should be judged harshly because they are not intimidating (ie Bossy etc), but tougher players like Tocchett and Neeley should be able to use 10's inclusion as a stepping stone into the hall.

 

  I get the feeling that Elias needed one more solid addition to his resume. I'm thinking a positive answer on #15 can sway a package that might not quite been up to snuff to a winning resume.....AND, he came really close to winning a Conn Smythe....during the Devils run in 2000-2001 Elias netted 23 points in 25 playoff games.

 

  When I checked Elias career stats, the thing that stuck out the most was his playoff production. He scored at a 0.77 (or 0.8 rounded up like I usually do) clip in the playoffs, 123 pts in 162 games, that is quite impressive, he upped his game when more was on the line. I'm still iffy on him, but this little stat package might sway me into giving him entrance into the HHOF.

[JagerMeister]

I dont think he should get in. But with the HHOF surprisingly low standards for forwards. I wouldn't be surprised if he did get in.

[ruxpin]

I dont think he should get in. But with the HHOF surprisingly low standards for forwards. I wouldn't be surprised if he did get in.

Truth