The defense dilemma

[brelic]

Man, if Ghost continues to shine like he did last night through the rest of the preseason, how do you not give him a shot???

 

He looked better than most of the vets on the team.

 

We know for sure that Coburn, Streit, and MacD aren't going anywhere.

 

That leaves Schenn, Grossmann, Del Zotto, and Schultz.

 

Schultz is completely expendable and a depth guy.

 

So, of the bottom 3 guys - Schenn, Grossmann, DZ - who would be displaced for Ghost?

 

I would scratch Schenn, honestly. He's just not very good and slow as molasses. I honestly believe our defense would be *better* with Ghost. Even while Ghost needs to tighten up his defensive game, it's less of an issue if he's moving the puck well and out of danger zones. Quick transition alleviates the need for defense - it is in itself a form of defense.

 

Ghost could get 2nd/3rd pairing minutes plus PP time. 

 

 

[doom88]

Scrap Grossmann. At least Schenn played well with MacDaddy.

[brelic]

Scrap Grossmann. At least Schenn played well with MacDaddy.

 

I hear ya - Grossmann is not high on my list either. But he's big and blocks a ton of shots, which is more useful IMO than the hits Schenn racks up, especially since Grossmann hits like a Mack truck too.

 

Plus, Schenn is not protected by an NTC this year (from what I can tell), while Grossmann is.

[doom88]

I hear ya - Grossmann is not high on my list either. But he's big and blocks a ton of shots, which is more useful IMO than the hits Schenn racks up, especially since Grossmann hits like a Mack truck too.

Plus, Schenn is not protected by an NTC this year (from what I can tell), while Grossmann is.

And yet, Schenn is younger and can improve. Grossmann is old, slow, injury prone, and declining. Schenn blocks shots too.

[OccamsRazor]

Man, if Ghost continues to shine like he did last night through the rest of the preseason, how do you not give him a shot???

 

Well the good thing is he could be sent down till they could swing a trade and remove a defenseman from the roster. That way the would retain leverage in any trade they seek.

 

I think my first option to trade would have to be GrossmanN because he is slow yet physical plus he has a decent deal left (3.5mill for this and next year) and could be attractive to a team looking for a 4th-6th Dman.

 

Or no matter what they may just want Ghost to start on the Phantoms either way it's a good problem to have.

 

One slow plodding Damn on the blueline is enough so Schenn fits that bill so trade the other that would be GrossmanN.

[King Knut]

I think you gotta keep things open.

Ghost may outshine everyone now, but there's no way the kid will hold out for an 82 game season. He's just a few months removed from chemistry finals and a meal plan. He's not tuned up for the long haul.

I say you keep the 7th man spot a rolling thing not just a safe salary for Schultz.

If ghost I looks good enough, start the season with him, but phase him out when he starts to wear down (then let him finish the season for conditioning in the AHL).

I'd love to see Morin get some limited time with the big club as well.

Long story short though is that I just can't see any if the kids holding out for a full season yet.

Man, if Ghost continues to shine like he did last night through the rest of the preseason, how do you not give him a shot???

He looked better than most of the vets on the team.

We know for sure that Coburn, Streit, and MacD aren't going anywhere.

That leaves Schenn, Grossmann, Del Zotto, and Schultz.

Schultz is completely expendable and a depth guy.

So, of the bottom 3 guys - Schenn, Grossmann, DZ - who would be displaced for Ghost?

I would scratch Schenn, honestly. He's just not very good and slow as molasses. I honestly believe our defense would be *better* with Ghost. Even while Ghost needs to tighten up his defensive game, it's less of an issue if he's moving the puck well and out of danger zones. Quick transition alleviates the need for defense - it is in itself a form of defense.

Ghost could get 2nd/3rd pairing minutes plus PP time.

[brelic]

And yet, Schenn is younger and can improve.

 

Do you believe he has a lot of improvement left in him? In other words, what do you see as his ceiling?

[brelic]

If ghost I looks good enough, start the season with him, but phase him out when he starts to wear down (then let him finish the season for conditioning in the AHL).

 

Exactly... and this is what I should have added to my initial post for giving Ghost a shot. There's no risk - you send him down if he seems worn down or struggling too much at the NHL level. Either Schenn or DZ would be the healthy scratches, I guess.

[King Knut]

I don't think it'll be Schenn.  Del Zotto or Grossman probably.

 

The only down side as I see it is that they just can't trade a Luke Schenn or Grossman for the cap space/contract relief even if they wanted to because they're probably all going to have to play throughout the year.

 

Next year maybe.  Trade deadline time if the team doesn't look to be in super positon.

[Podein25]

Do you believe he has a lot of improvement left in him? In other words, what do you see as his ce

 

 

Exactly. Has his foot speed improved one bit since we got him, or at all? If it has, it's not by much. I think that's unacceptable for a pro in today's game what with all the training tools and resources out there to improve your fast twitch muscles etc.

 

Some players can make up for slowness by superior positioning and intelligence. I'm sorry to say, but I don't see Schenn suddenly turning into a rocket scientist. At least he could work on his foot speed/skating. Has he? have the Flyers asked him to?

[Phillygrump]

Scrap Grossmann. At least Schenn played well with MacDaddy.

 

Thats a lot of blocked shots to scrap though. Do you think that will matter? He's not a great skater.

[AJgoal]

Thats a lot of blocked shots to scrap though. Do you think that will matter? He's not a great skater.

 

But why is Grossmann blocking all those shots? If you replace him, are there going to be fewer shots against for a defenseman to block? I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

[brelic]

But why is Grossmann blocking all those shots? If you replace him, are there going to be fewer shots against for a defenseman to block? I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

 

That was exactly the write up I saw on MacDonald not too long ago. He blocks a ton of shots (1st in the league last year, right?). And it's easy to associate that with good, selfless defense. But the article dug deeper and showed that his possession numbers are atrocious and he doesn't face the best competition, so he's likely having to block many of those shots as a result of mediocre defense.

 

Might it be the same case with Grossmann? I haven't looked at his numbers, so I don't know.

[Lunatic]

"Defensemen can always be traded' Ron Hextall, earlier this year. This conversation is music to his ears.

[mojo1917]

That leaves Schenn, Grossmann, Del Zotto, and Schultz.
 
Schultz is completely expendable and a depth guy.
 
So, of the bottom 3 guys - Schenn, Grossmann, DZ - who would be displaced for Ghost?
 
I would scratch Schenn, honestly. He's just not very good and slow as molasses. I honestly believe our defense would be *better* with Ghost. Even while Ghost needs to tighten up his defensive game, it's less of an issue if he's moving the puck well and out of danger zones. Quick transition alleviates the need for defense - it is in itself a form of defense.
 
Ghost could get 2nd/3rd pairing minutes plus PP time. 

 

I do not even consider Shultz in the equation, he is a "born" #7 at  this point a pro who will be a pro in the press box, and not kill you in the games where he dresses.

he is a jabroni that knows his role.

 

Grossmann would be my candidate to be moved, his deal is decent, his play is decent, he could net a draft pick , he is on the back nine of his career maybe only hole 12 but he is a finished product. We would probably miss his snarl around the net, but not much else.

 

Schenn is tricky because of his brother, I think,  these are still young guys, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Brayden struggle for a bit if his brother were to be moved... I know they are pros and should be above all that but I think, I'd like to see Brayden be able to concentrate on playing on Giroux's left wing exclusively .  It's time for this kid to really show us improvement I think not having Luke around would make that harder.  

 

Also Luke played well enough with MacDonald last year when they were paired up, he had a partner he could trust and had an idea of where his partner would be , i thought i saw some good things from his game as a result of that.  

 

Last point, i'd like to agree with is the winning races to the corners and being able to carry the puck was a thing that Matt Carle used to do and was vilified for it because he was smallish and got pushed around in the d zone when he lost the race to the puck,...it will take 2 weeks of that sort of thing happening to Ghost until people start to turn on him. 

[doom88]

Do you believe he has a lot of improvement left in him? In other words, what do you see as his ceiling?

I'm not sure, but I see it as clearly less of two evils.

I'd like to give him a full season under Berube, with the same defensive partner, before I give up. I really think his lackluster play is more due to poor management and development thus far. Let's try structure. I think he can top out to be a positional, stay at home, #2. More likely #3.

[jammer2]

And yet, Schenn is younger and can improve. Grossmann is old, slow, injury prone, and declining. Schenn blocks shots too.

 

 Well that's just it. There is a really good chance we have not seen the best out of Schenn at this point. There is a very good chance he will improve from his present status. Grossmann is actually on the decline. If I'm moving one of them, it's not the guy with some potential to get a bit better.

[brelic]

 Well that's just it. There is a really good chance we have not seen the best out of Schenn at this point. There is a very good chance he will improve from his present status. Grossmann is actually on the decline. If I'm moving one of them, it's not the guy with some potential to get a bit better.

 

I agree with you guys in theory - there is at least a chance that Schenn will get better. But Schenn is easier to move (no NTC) and will net a better return. And I don't see him as part of the core - though maybe Hexy does.

 

Then again it could turn out to be another mistake to give up on a player who's 24 - but dontcha think that after 6 NHL seasons you would start to see proof that he's getting better? 

[pilldoc]

@brelic

 

Schenn is, IMO, is the enigma of this defense.  He could go up or he could down.  His play could vary greatly from game to game.  I really have no read on this guy.  Just when you think he has turned a corner, he take 3 steps back again.  The question for Hexy is this...How long do give L. Schenn to improve his game?

[brelic]

@brelic

 

Schenn is, IMO, is the enigma of this defense.  He could go up or he could down.  His play could vary greatly from game to game.  I really have no read on this guy.  Just when you think he has turned a corner, he take 3 steps back again.  The question for Hexy is this...How long do give L. Schenn to improve his game?

 

Totally agree - I just don't see #5 overall traits in his game. 

 

He's had a TOI pattern throughout his career of 21:00, 16:00, 21:00, 16:00, 21:00, 16:00. Up and down, up and down, up and down.

 

He's poised for 21:00 this year Of course, I'd rather have 16 bad minutes than 21 bad minutes of Schenn, haha.

 

Or bench his ass and give Ghost a shot.

[pilldoc]

Totally agree - I just don't see #5 overall traits in his game.

He's had a TOI pattern throughout his career of 21:00, 16:00, 21:00, 16:00, 21:00, 16:00. Up and down, up and down, up and down.

He's poised for 21:00 this year Of course, I'd rather have 16 bad minutes than 21 bad minutes of Schenn, haha.

Or bench his ass and give Ghost a shot.

And that just might be Hexy's line of thinking.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Schenn really did improve the 2nd part of last season. It seemed to be a marked improvement, but really... he was THAT bad at the beginning of the season. He's still a 'bust' as far as I'm concerned. To say I won't be disappointed to see him go... anywhere, would be an understatement.

 

I think it might be best for Ghost to start in the AHL. I was mistaken before thinking he was going back to Union. Let him get some top D pair minutes and experience under Terry Murray and see how he does first. This allows him to get more comfortable with the Flyer's systems and what they will expect of him. 

 

Let's face it... we're bound to have some injuries to our D and there's almost certainly gonna be a chance for him in some NHL games this year. If, at that point, he comes up and shows he belongs... that might be a better way to go, IMO. 

[AJgoal]

That was exactly the write up I saw on MacDonald not too long ago. He blocks a ton of shots (1st in the league last year, right?). And it's easy to associate that with good, selfless defense. But the article dug deeper and showed that his possession numbers are atrocious and he doesn't face the best competition, so he's likely having to block many of those shots as a result of mediocre defense.

 

Might it be the same case with Grossmann? I haven't looked at his numbers, so I don't know.

 

Brel, Grossmann's possession stats are pretty bad, but the with or without you stats are weird because they seem to increase for both him and the other player when they're apart. I'm not exactly sure how that works. Anyway, the stats seem to say that he may be the cause of some of those shots against...but I still don't have a firm enough grasp on the analytics to say for sure.

[doom88]

Well, Grossmann's broken down body physically cannot challenge an NHL level shooter, so he has to sit back and block the shot.