"We are not going to Rush our Young Defensive Prospects"

[hf101]

 

 

...as quoted by Hextall, Snider, Flyers Organization... etc.

 

HUGE MISTAKE

 

Sending Morin back to Juniors and Gostisbehere to Lehigh Valley was a huge mistake for this organization.  Both have greater talent than at least two of the current Flyers top 6 d-men.  They may make a few mistakes along the way, but playing a year elsewhere will not get them NHL ready sooner than if they had given positions on the team.

 

Take a look at the amazing youthful Minnesota Wild's defense who only have one defenseman older than 24 on their top 6.  Only Marco Scandella played nearly a year over several years in the AHL. The Wild have given their youth roster spots early experience in the NHL and they are better for it.  Every one of their D-Men except Folin (who imo should be considered no different than Gostisbehere) played in the NHL with the Wild at either age 19 or 20.

 

 

The Wild only have one defenseman over the age of 25.

 

Ryan Suter age 29 has  9 years NHL experience and played 63 games in AHL

Jared Spurgeron age 24 has 4 years NHL experience and played only 23 games in AHL

Marco Scandella age 24 has 4 years NHL experience and has played 85 games with AHL over several years

Jonas Brodin age 21 2 years NHL experience played 9 games in AHL

Christian Folin age 23 Rookie, 2 years NCAA  no AHL games.

Mathew Dumba age 20 Rookie, Juniors and 13 games NHL no AHL

 

I have no idea what the Flyers Management is waiting for???   And unfortunately it already too late for Morin this year.

[OccamsRazor]

 Both have greater talent than at least two 4 the current Flyers top 6

 

There fixed it for you.

[OccamsRazor]

I have no idea what the Flyers Management is waiting for???

 

These guy really have no clue what to do with REAL blueline talent so it's kind of uncharted territory for them.

[Poulin20]

Here is the whole picture of what Hexy is thinking as recorded by  @sarsippius at the STH townhall.  

 

On the defense:

We are missing a true #1 defenseman. If you look around the league there aren’t too many other teams that can’t say the same thing. For us to go out and get a #1 defenseman, you guys would say to me ‘how are you going to fill those 3 or 4 holes you just created?’ What we’re going to do is we’re going to develop our defense from within (as well as our forwards)….we’ve got the 4 kids now, they’re prospects, they’re not [NHL] players right now, but they’re really good ones…they’ve got a lot of upside…they’re big, they’re strong, good poise…they may be here but more likely up in Allentown….it’s probably going to be a couple of years.

 

On patience with the prospects:

In our pro meetings there wasn’t one guy that we said ‘he spent too much time in the minors, and he got hurt by it’…Do we want Scott Laughton here playing 8 minutes, or we want him in Allentown playing 20 minutes? Well I’ll tell you where I want him, up in Allentown. If he pushes up our lineup then it’s probably a different conversation, but he’s not going to be handed anything.. None of these young guys are. They’re going to earn it. Part of earning it is getting that extra training in the minor league.

 

On Expectations:

As far as the Stanley Cup, I think I have a realistic expectation. I don’t think we’re in that top half a dozen teams….I’m not going to make a move because people in our building are getting antsy.  I’m going to make a move because it’s the right move for this franchise, not only for today but for tomorrow. I have ALONG TERM VIEW, I don’t view things in short boxes…I really like what’s coming, I also like what’s on the ice too. I think we’re going to be a competitive team this year. Like I said I don’t view us as being a top half a dozen contender… but I wouldn’t have viewed the Rangers like that 3 months ago either.

 

On philosophy / team makeup:

In Glens falls last year we had 2 guys who were our draft  picks….it’s not enough…this year on my board in my office we’ve got a dozen guys  who are our draft picks who are going to be in Allentown . We have to have that every year. You have to have young players coming up from below.  #1 because of salary and salary cap reasons. And to have guys who were drafted by the Flyers and brought through the system. It’s special.  I was one of those guys that was drafted and brought through the system. And Philadelphia will always hold a special place in my heart.  Those are the people you want playing on your team. That doesn’t mean you’re going to have your team filled only by guys that were drafted by the Flyers.  But we would like our core to be born and bred Philadelphia and come through the system. Not be a guy at the tail end where he’s taking his last paycheck or whatever, but really care about this franchise. I know sometimes you guys aren’t that patient, but in my position you’ve got to be patient. I can’t sacrifice two years from now to win a few more games this year

[hf101]

@Poulin20

 

 

There fixed it for you.

 

 

Thank you!

[OccamsRazor]

Ryan Suter age 29 has  9 years NHL experience and played 63 games in AHL

Jared Spurgeron age 24 has 4 years NHL experience and played only 23 games in AHL

Marco Scandella age 24 has 4 years NHL experience and has played 85 games with AHL over several years

Jonas Brodin age 21 2 years NHL experience played 9 games in AHL

Christian Folin age 23 Rookie, 2 years NCAA  no AHL games.

Mathew Dumba age 20 Rookie, Juniors and 13 games NHL no AHL

 

I have no idea what the Flyers Management is waiting for???   And unfortunately it already too late for Morin this year

 

Also great example. Letting the kids take their lumps. That to me is what i'm saying trial by fire. If they can't handle it to begin with it just means they were mentally fragile in the first place and more than likely would have cracked regardless of how gentle you are with them....mentally soft is mentally soft.

 

If kids can handle bootcamp at 18 and then go off to war then they can handle NHL play. They will crack no matter what if they are soft. Just my 2 cents on it. 

[hf101]

@Poulin20

 

Every one of the Wild defensemen except Folin, because he chose the NCAA route, has played in the NHL by at least age 20.  And all of them spent less than a year in the AHL.  I realize every player is different, but it is wrong for this organization to start a philosophy based upon the notion that their coaching is better in the AHL than the NHL for talented yound d-men.  What d-men have become NHLers out of the Phantoms in the last 3-5 years?

 

-- that doesn't give me much hope that our talented young d-men will be better developed in the AHL.

[murraycraven]

So let's call up all the young kids... What happens to all the overpriced vets?

[ruxpin]

@Poulin20

 

Every one of the Wild defensemen except Folin, because he chose the NCAA route, has played in the NHL by at least age 20.  And all of them spent less than a year in the AHL.  I realize every player is different, but it is wrong for this organization to start a philosophy based upon the notion that their coaching is better in the AHL than the NHL for talented yound d-men.  What d-men have become NHLers out of the Phantoms in the last 3-5 years?

 

-- that doesn't give me much hope that our talented young d-men will be better developed in the AHL.

 

 

Yeah, but we drafted crap as far as d-men go.  You're talking in general, though, and even that has been slim.  But we were largely drafting toward the end of the first round (if at all, a couple years without because of the Pronger trade, among others) and then not until the 3rd or 4th round because we'd traded all of our #2s away. 

 

I don't think the lack of the AHLers coming to the NHL is a result of coaching down there or because of the merits or negatives of that league.  It was because of the lack of anyone coming TO our AHL team that had any hope of ever moving on (the Phantoms' success--or lack of--the past few years bears that out).  I think what we have down there now is much better than we've had probably since Richards and Carter had their cup of coffee there.   And Giroux, I guess.

 

At the moment, I'm not even trying to disagree with your overall premise (although I do) but just pointing out that this specific argument has reasons other than what is being asserted.

 

Now, for your overall premise, for your Minnesota I'll counter with Buffalo and Edmonton.  Both have brought their kids in too soon and have huge struggles to show for it.  I have no doubt you could add to Minnesota with another team or teams for that side of the argument.

 

I'm going to repeat this, though, because for me it's trumping:  no one is hurt by staying in the AHL.  Find a player where you could say "he spent too much time down there."  What the magical cutoff is, I don't know.  A full season?  20 games?  40 games?  I don't know. 

 

Ryan Suter played 63 games in the AHL, pretty much a full season (I know it's 80, but it doesn't look like he played anywhere else that year).  Can anyone say he would have been a better player if he had not played that season in the AHL but went straight to  the NHL?   I don't think so.

 

So, for me, if it doesn't hurt a player to stay down a season or part of one and if we're not really sure of the effects of being up too soon and can find teams and players to argue either way, then considering the Flyers are going nowhere this year and we haven't had bonafide prospects on defense in an eternity, then I err on the side that is safe and protects the organization and the player the most.   And that is "keep them down."  Especially a defenseman that is still juniors-eligible and young even for his class.

 

Since I like analogies:

No kid has ever been burnt by fire who wasn't around fire.  Of the kids who play with fire, some get burnt some don't.  Is it the supervision, the makeup of the kid, luck?  It's an existential question I don't know the answer to since I or someone else could cite specific examples where it was one or the other or a combination.   Since the sure way to avoid the burning is just stay away from the fire, as a parent, I'm erring on the side of "don't play with fire!"

[ruxpin]

So let's call up all the young kids... What happens to all the overpriced vets?

 

Another brilliant question.  This isn't the NFL where you just cut them and skip along your merry way.  Even for the couple that don't have NMCs, if you waive them and another team grabs them you're on the hook for part of the cap hit, right?

 

So you have to try to move them.  To whom?  For what?  I think most of the Flyers' defensmen actually could work on someone's third pair.  Maybe even as the "other" on a second pair.  The problem is all of our defensemen are being played one or two stations above their head.  So  it may not be impossible to move people if we're just asking for low draft picks and/or eating some salary.  But our lineup of 3rd pairing defensemen are making so damn much versus their actual worth that it may be really difficult (short of covering most of their salary).

[jammer2]

  I would not want to make a call on this based on generalites. Every player is his own indivudual entity. Some guys need to put on beef so they can withstand the rigors of a long season. Some kids were late starters, switching from forward to d-man at 14 or 15 years old. Those kids might have tons of high end talent, but are still learning the nuances of the position.  Quite often d-men can withstand the forecheck at the OHL level, but the onlslaught they face at the NHL level is a totally diffferent animal. Some offensive d-man need to learn how to make things safer when you are adsorbing hits from 6'6 beasts.

 

 Some kids are ready at a very young age. It's the type of question with so many variables, I don't think you should attach generalties to something so very indiviual based.

[ruxpin]

  I would not want to make a call on this based on generalites. Every player is his own indivudual entity. Some guys need to put on beef so they can withstand the rigors of a long season. Some kids were late starters, switching from forward to d-man at 14 or 15 years old. Those kids might have tons of high end talent, but are still learning the nuances of the position.  Quite often d-men can withstand the forecheck at the OHL level, but the onlslaught they face at the NHL level is a totally diffferent animal. Some offensive d-man need to learn how to make things safer when you are adsorbing hits from 6'6 beasts.

 

 Some kids are ready at a very young age. It's the type of question with so many variables, I don't think you should attach generalties to something so very indiviual based.

 

Brilliant post.

 

Regarding specific Flyer prospects:

Ghost--he's still too flipping small.  He really does need to beef up a bit and maybe practice against the better forecheck.  It still won't be an NHL forecheck, but it should be arguably better than what he's played against previously.

Morin--He's barely 19.  He won't be 20 until next July.  It's not like he's had a lot of growth time.  I realize he's a big guy but he's still just a kid.  Let him continue to mature.  If you want to bring him straight from juniors to the NHL next year I'd entertain it, but even an AHL next year wouldn't be horrible for him.

Hagg--He's had some seasoning in Europe and will be 20 in February.  I would entertain him before the above, actually, but he's played a whopping 11 games on a North American rink.  Let's get him some more seasoning.  I could argue for bringing him up later in the season, though.

[caluso]

The bottom line is there is no sure-fire way to develop talent. If there was, every team would be doing it. It is inarguable, though, that the Flyers are lost - they have no idea how to evaluate talent and less of an idea how to develop it.

 

An issue that seems to be overlooked is the team's talent evaluation, involving those in the organization and those out of the organization. They seem to "hitch their wagon" to the wrong players which sets the franchise back or keeps its wheels spinning in the mud, time and time again. First it was Carter / Richards, now it is Schenn / Couturier. While Couturier might be an excellent defensive forward, he has shown little offensive game - and yet the Flyers' hierarchy deemed him worthy of being the teams' second line center. Let Couturier earn more playing time by actually producing, rather than simply handing him a promotion.

 

Then there's B Schenn. This guy hasn't earned a thing since he's been here and yet he has been given opportunity after opportunity to play with the big boys. And he has disappointed - every time. 

 

Meanwhile, their are other players who actually show real promise: Leier, Ghost, Morin...and they get cast aside. I just don't get it. Let players start earning their playing time. The team will be better off for it.

[jammer2]

So you have to try to move them. To whom? For what? I think most of the Flyers' defensmen actually could work on someone's third pair. Maybe even as the "other" on a second pair. The problem is all of our defensemen are being played one or two stations above their head. So it may not be impossible to move people if we're just asking for low draft picks and/or eating some salary. But our lineup of 3rd pairing defensemen are making so damn much versus their actual worth that it may be really difficult (short of covering most of their salary).

 

 A very valid point. We actually saw your post in action last season when the Flyers dealt Meszaros to the Bruins. In Philly, he was firmly entrenched as the 4th d-man on the second pairing, and paid accordingly. On Boston, he was the 6th d-man on the 3rd pairing, and thus paid far to much for the position he held on the team. Once the Bruins got to see him play for an extended time frame, he became the go to popcorn guy.

 

 As you pointed out, the Flyers d-men are overpaid, but when you transer the money and where they would *actually* play for the team getting them, it makes the whole thing a no go.

[hf101]

So let's call up all the young kids... What happens to all the overpriced vets?

 

For Starters, they could have not signed Schultz as a 7th d-man this off season with intention of having one of their young d-men play in the NHL. Which may have been given to Morin or whichever young player was "most" ready.  It's a lack of confidence in this organization that a young d-man can integrate with the vets for a starting role.  Sure I'll agree with you that we have drafted d-men poorly, but even the one's we've traded for haven't become NHLers.

 

I'd also be in favor of packaging up both of the Schenns for a first or second line Left winger at some point creating another opening for one of the young d-men.

 

 

@ruxpin

 

I wouldn't call Jared Spurgeon a sized player by any means at 5'9" 168lb  (age 24) and he probably weighs more than he did 4 years ago.   Dumba isn't a big kid either at 6.0 183lb.

 

The Wild had no issues with assigning Brodin a NHL roster spot at age 19 with no AHL experience coming from Sweden.  He is probably bigger now at 6'1"  194 than he was when he started 2 years ago.  

 

The Flyers philosophy would have never gone into this season as a playoff contender adding two more rookie d-men to the roster either, but it is what the Wild did adding Folin and Dumba neither whom have had any AHL experience.  After shutting out the Aves, I don't think their inexperience was a negative factor.

[OccamsRazor]

So let's call up all the young kids... What happens to all the overpriced vets?

 

 

Waive em and trade em if you can.

[jammer2]

@hf101  I don't think there is any doubt that the Wild are a better team with Dumba in the line up, ditto for Brodin. Of course there are serviceable journeymen that they could easily insert into their line-up, but they would be missing the different skill sets that Dumba an Brodin brougth to the team. The Flyers are in the same boat with Ghost and Morin. They would bring specific things to the team that are missing right now. If they need work on in their own end, they work there and it's a no go. 

 

 I don't think anyone could argue that *if*  they were advanced they would bring specific skills that the Flyers lack right now. Morin brings a size and physicality we lack....and just has important, can cut off a LOT of passing lanes with his wickedly long reach. Ghost is just an offensive dynamo. He has the create element that no other Flyer has. He can create a passing lane with a few quick criss crosses at the point on the pp, and is light years quicker than anything we dress at this skill.  That's part of what makes the whole thing so tempting, especially for Ghost, since Morin has basically been taken out of the equation follwing his return to jrs.

[hf101]

@hf101  I don't think there is any doubt that the Wild are a better team with Dumba in the line up, ditto for Brodin. Of course there are serviceable journeymen that they cold easily insert into their line-up, but they would be missing the different skill sets that Dumba an Brodin brougth to the team. The Flyers are in the same boat with Ghost and Morin. They would bring specific things to the team that are missing right now. If they need work on in their own end, they work there and it's a no go. 

 

 I don't think anyone could argue that *if*  they were advanced they would bring specific skills that the Flyers lack right now. Morin brings a size and physicality we lack....and just has important, can cut off a LOT of passing lanes with his wickedly long reach. Ghost is just an offensive dynamo. He has the create element that no other Flyer has. He can create a passing lane with a few quick criss crosses at the point on the pp, and is light years quicker than anything we dress at this skill.  That's part of what makes the whole thing so tempting, especially for Ghost, since Morin has basically been taken out of the equation follwing his return to jrs.

 

Exactly jammer,  which is why I don't like Hextall's philosophy that all of the Flyers young d-men will "earn" their way after spending xx ??? time in the AHL, and then IF a there is roster spot is available.   Well there could have been a roster opening had they not signed Schultz this summer or even adding Del Zotto after Timo went down.  But no this organization hasn't even kept an opening of space to bring up and down the AHLers with intent of getting them NHL experience.  This is the exact opposite of Wild which creates a roster opening and fills it with the next best d-man in the organization.

[caluso]

Exactly jammer,  which is why I don't like Hextall's philosophy that all of the Flyers young d-men will "earn" their way after spending xx ??? time in the AHL, and then IF a there is roster spot is available.   Well there could have been a roster opening had they not signed Schultz this summer or even adding Del Zotto after Timo went down.  But no this organization hasn't even kept an opening of space to bring up and down the AHLers with intent of getting them NHL experience.  This is the exact opposite of Wild which creates a roster opening and fills it with the next best d-man in the organization.

That's because this organization is clueless. 

 

They should be sued for fraud with the product that they are putting out there. They can't seriously think they can win anything with their present d-corps, can they?

[ruxpin]

hey can't seriously think they can win anything with their present d-corps, can they?

 

I really don't think they do.  I think the game plan was to build for later.  Of course, I don't see any ticket discounts resulting from that knowledge in the meantime.

[murraycraven]

@hf101... I don't see how we can expect anything decent I return for the Schenn brothers. Honestly, I want Luke out and could care keys about the return. B Schenn is not going to net a return of anything sizable...

My original question is about the current defensive players. Everyone wants to add youth and bring up some kids but who is going to take our players?

[jammer2]

Exactly jammer,  which is why I don't like Hextall's philosophy that all of the Flyers young d-men will "earn" their way after spending xx ??? time in the AHL, and then IF a there is roster spot is available.   Well there could have been a roster opening had they not signed Schultz this summer or even adding Del Zotto after Timo went down.  But no this organization hasn't even kept an opening of space to bring up and down the AHLers with intent of getting them NHL experience.  This is the exact opposite of Wild which creates a roster opening and fills it with the next best d-man in the organization.

 

 Teams like the Wild and the Wings, they just "get it". Kids spend 2 or 3 years down there, and there is always a "plan"....a timeframe when they will be able to utilize them when they reach full potential (well, for a prospect anyways). Pefect example, the Wings have Sproul waiting right now, he's the next one scheduled to be inserted. 2 years down the pike, Ouellete will get his shot.

 

  The Flyers end up having their prospects toll in the minors, but *always* block their way with a veterans like MDZ and Schultz, instead of utilizing them as an asset, they move in higher priced, less talented crap....it's so frustrating, one of my main pet peeves with the Flyers. The Wings actually let guys go UFA cause "so and so is ready"....and they also get the cap savings that comes with such a move. Amazing concept, actually trusting the guys you drafted and developed to take an NHL spot....WOW.

[ruxpin]

 Teams like the Wild and the Wings, they just "get it". Kids spend 2 or 3 years down there, and there is always a "plan"....a timeframe when they will be able to utilize them when they reach full potential (well, for a prospect anyways). Pefect example, the Wings have Sproul waiting right now, he's the next one scheduled to be inserted. 2 years down the pike, Ouellete will get his shot.

 

  The Flyers end up having their prospects toll in the minors, but *always* block their way with a veterans like MDZ and Schultz, instead of utilizing them as an asset, they move in higher priced, less talented crap....it's so frustrating, one of my main pet peeves with the Flyers. The Wings actually let guys go UFA cause "so and so is ready"....and they also get the cap savings that comes with such a move. Amazing concept, actually trusting the guys you drafted and developed to take an NHL spot....WOW.

 

No no no.  You don't get it.  You don't develop players in the minors to eventually take roster spots.  You develop them so you can trade them for bloated, broken, senior citizens and let those young players score two goals a game against you for the next 15 years. 

[OccamsRazor]

The Flyers end up having their prospects toll in the minors, but *always* block their way with a veterans like MDZ and Schultz, instead of utilizing them as an asset, they move in higher priced, less talented crap....it's so frustrating, one of my main pet peeves with the Flyers.

 

It's just mind boggling that is why a free agent like a Folin won't sign here how the hell would he get a chance to be called up when he is blocked like you say by some turd name Schultz i know these kids look at that type of stuff i can't blame them.

[hf101]

@hf101... I don't see how we can expect anything decent I return for the Schenn brothers. Honestly, I want Luke out and could care keys about the return. B Schenn is not going to net a return of anything sizable...

My original question is about the current defensive players. Everyone wants to add youth and bring up some kids but who is going to take our players?

 

I think the Schenns would have had better trade value this summer.  The more we see of them the lower the value unfortunately.    As far as the other d-men.  There will be 2 positions next year without removing any of the existing d-men.  

 

My main point here Murray is there needed to be a plan to create openings for rookie defensemen and there isn't any explanation as to why one space couldn't have been available this season.   Thus it is really easy to assume this organization didn't want or wasn't willing to plan to bring in a rookie d-man at all this season no matter how ready one might be which is the opposite philosophy of the Wild organization.