Stick to the Plan(?)

[murraycraven]

This is truly not an indictment about our fanbase but more of something I have noticed in a lot of our collective posts since the season began with another bad/slow start.  I guess I am confused about what is being discussed as far as prospects and management are concerned.

 

Throughout the years we have never witnessed the true development of any type of significant defensemen from our system.  We finally believe (they are still prospects) there are true defensive gems in our system that have a chance to develop into some very good players yet after a 3-0 start it appears that the belief in "development" has been cast aside for more of a "play now" attitude.  My main question is why?   Is this season really worth ruining or damaging the future of prospects?   In my opinion it is absolutely not.

 

This Team was constructed in a piss-poor manner and the cap issues are as evident as ever.   This Team, no matter how positive you look at it, is simply nowhere near a contender.  There are holes on the offensive side of the puck and the defense is a joke - how can anyone think they might contend?  Maybe they slide into a playoff spot and maybe not...   the point being:   Why rush the development of Gost, Haag, Morin or any other solid defensive prospect?

 

Morin is a kid and as impressive as he looked there are still things he needs to work on.   Gost was an absolute joy to watch but there is no harm in playing the kid in the AHL to get seasoning.   He has never played a A/NHL type schedule against men and college is a different game in terms of schedule and talent pool.   Haag looks very steady...   I get they ALL look like they are ready but no defensive player has been harmed by development time.  

 

Take into account we are a whopping 3 games (3 games!!!) into the season and I am reading that "Hextall will never give the kids a chance" and the like it comes across as complete nonsense.  No single poster on this board has any clue what the future holds.   We have a GM that came in and preached patience - the same exact thing 90% of this board has been preaching for years and years.   But now we have a GM that looks to actually develop and build a Team and we want to rush the kids?   To me it makes no sense...

 

This is not a 1-2 year process and certainly 3 games into a season is no way to judge a new GM.  The same GM that was literally screwed by the previous GM's penchant for terrible decisions and overly-bloated contracts.  

 

At the end of the day I much rather look past this season and be patient with the kids.   Some are close to NHL ready and could be called up this season due to injury and/or trade.   We dont know what the future holds and we certainly dont want to cheapen our prospects by rushing them. 

 

At the end of the day we cant have it both ways...   Give me a plan about how you are going to move the toads on the defense to allow the kids to play.   We are 3 games into the season friends - give the GM a reasonable amount of time before judging what is to come.   There are moves that HAVE to be made but 3 games is just that - nothing to judge a GM's performance on.  

[JackStraw]

it appears that the belief in "development" has been cast aside for more of a "play now" attitude.  My main question is why?

 

Because fans are impatient. They don't like watching their team lose, so they want a change. The Flyers are doing the right thing for these young guys and their careers and I'm confident that Hextall and Berube are not going to be influenced by loud screaming from the peanut gallery.

[Poulin20]

Here here #32! I am with you.  It is going to be painful to watch this year no doubt.  I knew that after watching last years playoffs and then hearing Hexys plan during the off season but darn it, if it leads to a parade in a few years I am willing to wait, (God willing if I live that long of course  )

[pilldoc]

@murraycraven

 

Excellant post!  Thank you for putting into words my exact thoughts.  There is nothing here to disagree about.  As @JackStraw mentioned, we live in a scociety of instant gratification.  The Flyers fan base, for the most part, are a very impatient group.  Yes, there will always be exceptions and I recognize that.  For many, the Flyers are or have always a contender or/and a player or two away and therefore never had to endure a truly rebuilding process.  We as a society and any team fanbase are impatient.  We want to win now.

 

I will admit, at times,I fell into that thinking too.  Even though my head knew what must be done, my heart wants to win..and win now! After all it is human nature to want to win or be victorious.  No one wants to be deemed a loser.  However, after witnessing the debacle after the past few years, it is necessary for this team to develop a patient strategy.

 

I will admit, I thought by giving Morin at 9 games with Flyers before sending him down, would be beneficial for him.  Same with Laughton, I thought he legitamately deserved a shot too.  However, I admit I was wrong.  Nothing can be gained by playing them this season.  They themselves, will not magically make this team a contender.  We must trust the current GM.  I know that is hard, given the recent history of this team and of our former GM, but we must trust Hexy and trust his plan to one again make this team successful agin.  This will be hard for many of us...BUT it is not only the right way of doing things, in reality it is the only way.

 

As you said, this is a poorly constructed team and to blame Hexy for any of his decisions is ludicrious at best.  He was dealt a very, very raw hand which will take time to correct.

 

As I have been on record numerous times, and I will stated it again, ...this is a year (and very possibly next year too)..a year of transition.  The stench of this team needs to be purged before this team can move forward.  Things will get worse before it gets better. 

 

All I ask is that this team play for 60 minutes and not 40 mins and let the chips fall where they fall. 

[Samifan]

@murraycraven



Excellant post! Thank you for putting into words my exact thoughts. There is nothing here to disagree about. As @JackStraw mentioned, we live in a scociety of instant gratification. The Flyers fan base, for the most part, are a very impatient group. Yes, there will always be exceptions and I recognize that. For many, the Flyers are always a contender or a player or two away and therefore never had to endure a truly rebuilding process.

 

I agree with everyone. As Flyers fans, we have been raised under Snider's "All in or win now" mentality. We have watched the Flyers go through coaches, GOALIES and throw crazy cash and contract terms at the prized Free Agents every summer. Patience and Rebuilding are foriegn to us as Flyers fans. We are not custom to see the Flyers willing to build from within. We all joked last year about Snider's "We dont need a fresh perspective or cuture" comment last year but now we have a GM that wants to do just that and that may be difficult for many of us to comprehend. At the end of the day I think we all agree the Flyers are finally on the right track, the problem is that none of us want to watch the Flyers struggle and hover near the bottom of the league so we voice our displeasures on this forum

[mojo1917]

The Flyers historically have been very good, now they have not won boat loads of championships but the winning % is 2nd all time behind Les Habitents .

To see players we know to have talent playing poorly is tough to take. Then to see players you know are not very talented play to form on top of that creates a feeling of dread for the season.  

Every time i've tuned in Giroux is suck ®phlply what, he's minus 5 for the year so far, Voracek cannot receive a pass actually no one can, and Zac ******* Rinaldo and some old guy from France are our best forwards ?  fellas that is harsh.

 

Watching Grossmann and Lukey the Slow stand around while Dinas ******* Zubrus or Methuselah Markov blows past them makes me sick.  So uh yeah, if a kid is ready why the hell aren't we trying him out ?   just waive the dead weight , Comcast will never feel the financial hit; play the Alt, Manning, Laridsen players and see what's what.  We don't know that they suck yet, or even if they do in  fact suck, they might just be not good... we all know what we're getting with Shultz , Gross and Luke.

[pilldoc]

 As Flyers fans, we have been raised under Snider's "All in or win now" mentality. We have watched the Flyers go through coaches, GOALIES and throw crazy cash and contract terms at the prized Free Agents every summer. Patience and Rebuilding are foriegn to us as Flyers fans. We are not custom to see the Flyers willing to build from within. We all joked last year about Snider's "We dont need a fresh perspective or cuture" comment last year but now we have a GM that wants to do just that and that may be difficult for many of us to comprehend. At the end of the day I think we all agree the Flyers are finally on the right track, the problem is that none of us want to watch the Flyers struggle and hover near the bottom of the league so we voice our displeasures on this forum

 

That mantra along with the "Broad Street Bullies" mantra has haunted this franchise for years now.  Though I am proud of the team history, the notion of Broad Street Bullies no longer is in play with the current NHL.  For the first time in forever, this team has no real enforcer on its roster. 

 

The "All in or win now" mentality has killed this team.

 

You are right, none of us are gonna watch this stretch, but like a surgeon taking out the puss out of bad infection, this must be done and at times it will be painful to watch.

 

And yes we will bitch and moan about all of this on this forum all the while pretending to be armchair GM's !

 

 

[pilldoc]

The Flyers historically have been very good, now they have not won boat loads of championships but the winning % is 2nd all time behind Les Habitents .

To see players we know to have talent playing poorly is tough to take. Then to see players you know are not very talented play to form on top of that creates a feeling of dread for the season.  

Every time i've tuned in Giroux is suck ®phlply what, he's minus 5 for the year so far, Voracek cannot receive a pass actually no one can, and Zac ****** Rinaldo and some old guy from France are our best forwards ?  fellas that is harsh.

 

Watching Grossmann and Lukey the Slow stand around while Dinas ****** Zubrus or Methuselah Markov blows past them makes me sick.  So uh yeah, if a kid is ready why the hell aren't we trying him out ?   just waive the dead weight , Comcast will never feel the financial hit; play the Alt, Manning, Laridsen players and see what's what.  We don't know that they suck yet, or even if they do in  fact suck, they might just be not good... we all know what we're getting with Shultz , Gross and Luke.

 

And I see your point of view too.  The reality is, and IMO, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to rebuild.  Some teams have have a great knack for scouting, drafting, and developing players such as the Red Wings.  No one can deny their success.

 

Some teams go the absolute youth movement and it has not worked out that well for them.  See Oilers, Edmonton.

 

Some teams go about the youth movement such as the Wild and the jury will still be out on them to see how they do.

 

Then we have our beloved Flyers, were our current GM is going to try and develop our future the right way by letting them develop some either in the AHL or Juniors.  We don't have a crystal ball.  We don't know how this turn out.

 

I guess one must take each teams philosophy and the prospects they have and determine the best course of actiion.  Each team is different and each prospect is different.

 

You have players such as Ekblad / Mckinnon / S. Jones who are at that moment time NHL ready.  This is not the case for  Morin / Hagg / Ghost / etc...

 

What if we miraculously suck so bad and get so lucky that we land McDavid in next years draft.  He will have to be treated on special basis too.  From my understanding he is that good and considered a generational player, that in all likely hood he would be on the Flyers.  It is all about perspective. 

 

Did I make any sense here?

[fan4ever]

@murraycraven

 

As painful as it may be to watch, you are right and it'll be a long season.

 

I just hope that they can make a decent showing and do okay!!!!

[Phillygrump]

Nah, lets panic instead. I feel like panicking.

 

Trade all the things. Fire everyone and let start over with Eichel or McDavid. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Definitely stick to the plan. When the 06 - 07 season ended and when the Flyers had a dismal record, I thought that was the perfect opportunity for Holmgren to rebuild the club and not get tempted by blowing all sorts of money on free agents. Holmgren went with the fast track back to respectability and every year, he made significant changes in order to fit needs or correct mistakes. As a result, we're witnessing what's happening here - several veteran players with bloated contracts who can't be moved and young players who could probably play here, but they won't put them into this crap show. I say let Hextall continue the deconstruction of the Flyers and then let him reconstruct the team properly. For once, someone is doing the rebuild the right way and unfortunately, it's going to be a little bit painful, but there's also a very solid group of forwards currently in place that should help ease the blow of how bad this club could possibly be. No sense throwing Gostisbehere, Hagg, Morin or Alt to the wolves until the Hextall can fix the mess Holmgren left behind. Kudos to Hextall for not pulling the plug on the plan and going into full panic mode.

[jammer2]

  I think far to much is being placed upon our bad start. 3 games is not the way to judge. If we went by those standards, last year would have been a write off after our horrific start, but that lead to taking the Eastern Conf champs to within 1 goal of elimination, in a game 7...in their rink.

 

  Sure, stick to the plan, but don't let it cloud our judgement either. This team will be in the race in the wide open East, mark my words. When that happens if one of the kids appears ready, give him a whirl...try to add a NHL skill that the team is lacking. Other kids are ready, Hampus Linholm played as a teenager last year for example. Everything should be individual based, some kids handle the pressure better than others. Ghost for instance, playing sheltered minutes with a vet...but still holding down a primary job on the top pp...that may be viable...maybe he's not ready....which is cool also...but I just want to keep an open mind.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

  I think far to much is being placed upon our bad start. 3 games is not the way to judge. If we went by those standards, last year would have been a write off after our horrific start, but that lead to taking the Eastern Conf champs to within 1 goal of elimination, in a game 7...in their rink.

 

  Sure, stick to the plan, but don't let it cloud our judgement either. This team will be in the race in the wide open East, mark my words. When that happens if one of the kids appears ready, give him a whirl...try to add a NHL skill that the team is lacking. Other kids are ready, Hampus Linholm played as a teenager last year for example. Everything should be individual based, some kids handle the pressure better than others. Ghost for instance, playing sheltered minutes with a vet...but still holding down a primary job on the top pp...that may be viable...maybe he's not ready....which is cool also...but I just want to keep an open mind.

 

Lindholm was also surrounded by some very good veteran defensemen (Beauchemin, Fowler, Sbisa, Robidas, Allen, etc....) that helped his transition. That's the problem in Philadelphia. Other than Streit, who else is there who can really help these youngs transition to the next level? I don't blame Hextall on wanting to keep them away from this mess and surrounding the youngsters with better veterans who can help them make that jump and be effective players.

[The Quigster]

I just signed up for "Cener Ice" as an antidote! A steady diet of these lackeys is hard on a person.

[jammer2]

Lindholm was also surrounded by some very good veteran defensemen (Beauchemin, Fowler, Sbisa, Robidas, Allen, etc....) that helped his transition. That's the problem in Philadelphia. Other than Streit, who else is there who can really help these youngs transition to the next level? I don't blame Hextall on wanting to keep them away from this mess and surrounding the youngsters with better veterans who can help them make that jump and be effective players.

 

 Valid point BCF...a lot easier to break in a kid on the Ducks blueline rather than our d corps.

[briere48]

let's say you do leave this kids in the ahl for 2 more years, you bring the kids up after you traded or not resign the current vet d, it doesnt work out, what's the plan then? that's why i say, give them a chance now, that way if they are real deal, you can build around them and not building around the same group as this current d.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

 Valid point BCF...a lot easier to break in a kid on the Ducks blueline rather than our d corps.

It also helps that everyone in Anaheim is willing to buy into what the coach is trying to establish. 

[doom88]

let's say you do leave this kids in the ahl for 2 more years, you bring the kids up after you traded or not resign the current vet d, it doesnt work out, what's the plan then? that's why i say, give them a chance now, that way if they are real deal, you can build around them and not building around the same group as this current d.

Well, they aren't the real deal, yet. Think of prospects like baking a cake. It takes time, and if you rush, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

[King Knut]

I am a proponent of playing them sparingly to give the tasted of the NHL to speed up their development.

I have a feeling that if this singing Ghost will be a fixture by spring.

Morin can't any more and Sanheim and Hagg were not ready.

lauridsen, I have no idea what his deal is at this point.

I think Morin should have played a few pro games before being sent back to juniors. Not the full season because he almost definitely wouldn't hold up. But a few games.

For the life if me, I can't figure out why ANYONE would disagree with that.

How will this damage our future prospects? What exactly do you think will happen to them? If they play 3 or for games with the big club every other month or so?

I want this specifically FOR their development. Not to win now. I would in fact trade winning now for doing this if I thought our vets were actually better but at this point it looks like it will be both for their development and to help the team win. Which the current staff seems utterly incapable of doing.

What is it you think will happen to ghost if he plays a four game stretch, then goes back up the northeast extension for a month?

What exactly would have happened to morin if he'd stayed up with the big club for a few games before going back to juniors just hasn't already happened? -A puck in the face and 5 weeks out if the lineup is pretty bad for development too.

Bing able to bench Luke and Nik wouldn't be such a bad thing either. Might take the idiots up a bit.

Is this season really worth ruining or damaging the future of prospects? In my opinion it is absolutely not.

[canoli]

There are holes on the offensive side of the puck and the defense is a joke - how can anyone think they might contend?

 

Because it happens all the time. Not as often as the favorites winning 4 rounds but often enough. Did anybody predict the Rangers coming out of the East last season? It isn't hard to imagine Emery having a good 3rd game instead of a lousy one...or Mason doesn't get hurt...probably the Rags don't even make R2. Sure there's holes in the Flyers' lineup. But every team has holes in their lineup.

 

"Our blue line sucks" and "we need a LW top line guy" - as true as they are - do not mean the Flyers can't compete or even win a Cup with this roster. The Flyers' D-men are "average" or even "low-end" talent-wise and we haven't settled the top line yet. But IF Berube can get the forwards to backcheck the right way - not over-extend themselves, over-compensating - the Flyers can be a good defensive team. I like Mason/Emery as a last line of defense. And IF Giroux, Simmonds, (dare I dream) VLC have big years...?

 

You just never know how good a roster can be until they play like a T-E-A-M. Having talent helps but guys playing for the team and for each other helps even more. 

 

[edit: btw I agree with your post entirely. I've been wondering the same thing myself, what's with all the "Bring up Ghost!" and "We blew it with Morin!" posts?

[King Knut]

I agree. Look at 2010. We were a Boucher's toe from missing the playoffs and a Carter puck lift or Leighton slipped disc from game 7 of the finals.

That's what makes the game fun.

Still... They need something special right now and I'm not sure what chief's gonna do about it.

This is two years in a row where the team came into game 1 looking like they were brand new to the game.

Wtf is going on with these guys?

G looks a little better than last year -certainly less snake bitten. Wayne looks strong and sadly VLC was looking better too.

Other than that, they seem utterly lost.

Because it happens all the time - certainly not as often as the favorites win 4 rounds but often enough. Look no further back than last year - did anybody predict the Rangers coming out of the East? It isn't hard to imagine Emery having a good 3rd game instead of a lousy one...or Mason not getting hurt...and the Rags don't even make R2. Of course there's holes in the Flyers' lineup. But every team has holes in their lineup.

"Our blue line sucks" and "we need a LW top line guy" - as true as they are - do not mean the Flyers can't compete or even win a Cup with this roster. Sure the Flyers' D-men are "average" or even "low-end" talent-wise and we haven't settled the top line yet. But if Berube can get the forwards to backcheck the right way - not over-extend themselves, over-compensating - the Flyers can be a good defensive team. I like Mason/Emery as a last line of defense. You just never know how good 23 players can be until they become a T-E-A-M. Having big talent helps but having guys play For each other helps even more.

[murraycraven]

Well, they aren't the real deal, yet. Think of prospects like baking a cake. It takes time, and if you rush, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

This could be my favorite post ever... Lol! Great comparison doom... Just great stuff!

[murraycraven]

let's say you do leave this kids in the ahl for 2 more years, you bring the kids up after you traded or not resign the current vet d, it doesnt work out, what's the plan then? that's why i say, give them a chance now, that way if they are real deal, you can build around them and not building around the same group as this current d.

It is a great question. But my response would be how are you bringing the kids up with the current roster of defenseman? There are too many to waive, trade, etc... We simply can't replace the roster with the kids.

In time I would suspect one of the prospects will be up here. But why rush it? What is it going to do this year? IMO it will do nothing... Let the kids develop...

Patience is key here... Nothing more and nothing less.

Again... We have a GM that appears to want to build a team and we have all wanted that for a very long time. Embrace the development prospect. Not every prospect will be a top tier player but development has never hurt anyone.

[murraycraven]

I will add to the offense side of the puck here as well and this is truly not to be a negative or start anything... But is Umberger on this team? Hartnell would be tied for 2nd if on the Flyers... Joke. Joke for the hartnell haters out there..

[radoran]

I think Morin should have played a few pro games before being sent back to juniors. Not the full season because he almost definitely wouldn't hold up. But a few games.

For the life if me, I can't figure out why ANYONE would disagree with that.

I certainly don't.

The only thing I can think is that it was a cap issue.