Flyers Continuing Same Old Game With Couturier

[Irishjim]

from the Hockey Writers: October 15, 2014 | by Greg Fernandez

 

This was supposed to be the year.

 

It was the Philadelphia Flyers’ plan — put Sean Couturier in better situations to give him more of a chance to put up offensive numbers, like the ones similar to his time in juniors. Through four games of the young season, the team has shown an aversion to starting the the 21-year-old center out on that part of the ice. Here’s how the team has handled him, thus far:

 

 

Throughout training camp and the preseason, the Flyers placed Wayne Simmonds on a line with Couturier and Matt Read. The belief was that Simmonds, who had potted a career-high 29 goals the season before, would open things up on the offensive end for Couturier, all while still keeping the line’s defensive capabilities intact.

 

read full article here:  http://thehockeywriters.com/flyers-and-sean-couturier/?utm_content=bufferbe540&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[brelic]

At even-strengh, Couturier has taken just 27.9% of his faceoffs in the offensive zone, a pace that would be the lowest of his career. Already tasked with shutting down the opponents best line, Berube is leaving Couturier with an uphill battle to produce.

 

 

I find this to be the most telling statistic in the article. 

 

It really seems to me that Berube is unable to find the balance between developing players (and accepting the mistakes and losses that come with it), and trying to win games that might come at the expense of individual development.

[DaGreatGazoo]

I agree with this article completely. However, if not Coots to play that role then who?? Giroux, VLC, Frenchie, B Schenn? No thanks!!

The fact that he's continuing in the "defensive specialist" role is just one more example of how poorly constructed this roster is, from top to bottom.

Thanks Homer.

[Vanflyer]

It really seems to me that Berube is unable to find the balance between developing players (and accepting the mistakes and losses that come with it), and trying to win games that might come at the expense of individual development.

 

Why does this horse collar hang at Berube's office?? I would flip flop that and go all the way upstairs to Mr. Snider.

[Howie58]

This could be another sign of "sacrifice" for a better tomorrow.  Yes...he is being stunted. But as Van and Da Great say, who would we have to take his place?  Writ large, we have to worry that the capable cadre of forwards will get sucked up and f...ked up in the 2-3 years it might take to rebuild the D.  Meanwhile, I am worry about Mason....

 

Howie

[aziz]

The fact that he's continuing in the "defensive specialist" role is just one more example of how poorly constructed this roster is, from top to bottom.

 

huh?  what does that mean?  he is the strongest defensive forward on the team, and doesn't have the wheels to roll with a modern rush-style offense....so it means the roster is poorly constructed when he is used in a defensive capacity?  i really don't follow that at all.  that seems like putting the right player in the right role to me.

[DaGreatGazoo]

So a 21 yr kid kid is our best defensive player--scary. I think he's totally in the wrong role. He's there because they have no one else to do it.

I have an issue with that. Especially because the kid-that by just about every report I've read--could be a 2nd line center if given the chance but is being relegated to 3rd line shut down minutes so they can accommodate a broken down VLC. Yeah. That's a poorly constructed roster. Not of mention the other kid that's supposed to be a possible 2nd line center is playing wing--again--cause of broken down VLC and the lack of a 1st line winger. Yes--Poorly constructed.

I also won't get into how poorly this team has played at 5 on 5 for the last 2 seasons. Again-because it's poorly constructed.

[aziz]

@DaGreatGazoo

 

i think couturier has a very strong defensive game, and an inconsistent and opportunistic offensive game.  i don't really see the things that make high end scoring centers.  yes, big seasons in junior.  wojtek wolski had them, too.  i see a player with significant but specific value, and kind of like seeing him used to maximize that contribution.  he's good enough defensively that i don't understand the intense desire to see him do something else.  if he can find a way to put up points from the third line, i'd love to see it, but that match-up center role is the role he provides the most value with.  i WANT him taking draws in the defensive zone.  the only structural problem i see there is this desire to move a load bearing column around.  leave it, it has a job to do right there, it does it really well, leave it alone.

 

schenn.  pfft.  schenn is a winger.  he might've played center for a long time, but he's a winger.  shooter, likes the boards, weak backcheck, poor on faceoffs, winger.  i get that he's used to the middle and all of that, but the skillset he is being asked to use is the same, he just has to do it 30 feet to one side.  imo, the schenn-out-of-position thing is nonsense.  sometimes, an excuse for why he isn't living up to billing, other times as something to hold up when trying to come up with things the flyers do poorly.  schenn on a wing is the same as schenn at center, production-wise.  he dogs it now, he'll dog it as a pivot.  it isn't because he is uncomfortable on the wing, it's because he is the kind of guy to dog it.  the structural problem is that he has his head straight up his ass way too often.  not that he is off to one side on a rostersheet.

[Vanflyer]

Frenchie

 

I would not be opposed to Frenchy in that role, assuming that it Coots blossoms his offensive game similar to Jr. If not, flip flop, and move Bellemare up and let coots do what he does best.

[doom88]

@aziz solid posts again good sir

[jackhole]

Completely agree on Cooter, Aziz.  Its a role that's needed and is done well, and I'm glad we don't need to depend on our 1st line center to provide that.  Count it a one of the few puzzle pieces we've got right, and work on the rest.....

[brelic]

i think couturier has a very strong defensive game, and an inconsistent and opportunistic offensive game.  i don't really see the things that make high end scoring centers.  yes, big seasons in junior.  wojtek wolski had them, too.  i see a player with significant but specific value, and kind of like seeing him used to maximize that contribution.  he's good enough defensively that i don't understand the intense desire to see him do something else.  if he can find a way to put up points from the third line, i'd love to see it, but that match-up center role is the role he provides the most value with.  i WANT him taking draws in the defensive zone.  the only structural problem i see there is this desire to move a load bearing column around.  leave it, it has a job to do right there, it does it really well, leave it alone.

 

That would be fine ... except that both Hextall and Berube have stated multiple times during the run-up to the season that they want to develop Couturier's offensive game by putting him in situations that provide more of those opportunities and giving him better wingers. 

 

Both of which Berube has taken away after a game and a half. There's a disconnect between the rhetoric and the actions.

[Podein25]

except that both Hextall and Berube have stated multiple times during the run-up to the season that they want to develop Couturier's offensive game by putting him in situations that provide more of those opportunities and giving him better wingers. 

 

Both of which Berube has taken away after a game and a half. There's a disconnect between the rhetoric and the actions.

 

 

Exactly. That's the whole point of the thread. Instead, it's back to Couturier "hasn't proven that he has any offensive game at the NHL level" and insulting comparisons to Wojtek Wolski. The people saying that what someone did in Junior doesn't mean a damn thing are the same ones who on Draft day would be saying, "don't take that guy! He's terrible, can't even put up 80 points in Junior." 

 

It makes me crazy.

[aziz]

The people saying that what someone did in Junior doesn't mean a damn thing are the same ones who on Draft day would be saying, "don't take that guy! He's terrible, can't even put up 80 points in Junior."

It makes me crazy.

I'd like to point out, as the specific guy who said (and believes) that stats from junior don't mean much as regards NHL performance (128 points in 56 games as a 19-20 yearold in Brampton for wolski, btw), I have never said "don't take that guy! He's terrible, can't even put up 80 points in Junior." that would be stupid.

[brelic]

Exactly. That's the whole point of the thread. Instead, it's back to Couturier "hasn't proven that he has any offensive game at the NHL level" and insulting comparisons to Wojtek Wolski. The people saying that what someone did in Junior doesn't mean a damn thing are the same ones who on Draft day would be saying, "don't take that guy! He's terrible, can't even put up 80 points in Junior." 

 

It makes me crazy.

 

I am one of those guys too I agree with @aziz that putting up points in juniors means nothing. Well, let me rephrase that. It's almost a prerequisite for a player who wants any chance at developing the same offensive game in the NHL, but there are more players who fail to translate their game to the NHL than those who do.

 

Couturier, to me, looks and plays like the kind of guy that will top out at 50ish, like a Jordan Staal type player. He reacts to the game very slowly on offense.

 

That doesn't mean they shouldn't try, though. He may very well unlock the next part of his game given the right situations and wingers.

[Podein25]

He reacts to the game very slowly on offense.

 

 

I don't necessarily see that. I think he has fine instincts and sees the ice really well. I do think he needs to do more to get better in terms of skating and his shot. I hope he's not satisfied with the Jordan Staal comparison and wants more. That part is up to him.  

 

Otherwise, it's like you said, you can't know until you try. 

[murraycraven]

Let's just say that if you put up points in Jr it is a better indicator that you can put up points in the NHL.   As opposed to the reverse side of the equation where you don't put up many points in Jr and are a ppg player in the NHL.

 

It is not always a sure thing that a scorer in Jrs will be a scorer in the NHL but the reverse is very illogical.   I am Pods on this one...  

 

(not saying anyone is wrong here)  We wont know until he is put into a position to get more chances.

[OccamsRazor]

I am one of those guys too I agree with @aziz that putting up points in juniors means nothing. Well, let me rephrase that. It's almost a prerequisite for a player who wants any chance at developing the same offensive game in the NHL, but there are more players who fail to translate their game to the NHL than those who do.

 

Couturier, to me, looks and plays like the kind of guy that will top out at 50ish, like a Jordan Staal type player. He reacts to the game very slowly on offense.

 

That doesn't mean they shouldn't try, though. He may very well unlock there's next part of his game given the right situations and wingers.

Its just like college football and how it translates to the NFL, its not anexact science because yes its against peers your age but it has more to do with the quality of talent you play against at the next level in the NFLor NHL its the best of the best, the elite in the pros. Time and space will be taken away in the pros. The moves that worked one level down ususally don't work next level up. Its can you adapt and overcome grow your game that will seperate. Any how my 2cents for today. I hate replying on my smart phone...texting sucks with big fingers!!!!

[canoli]

Couturier, to me, looks and plays like the kind of guy that will top out at 50ish, like a Jordan Staal type player. He reacts to the game very slowly on offense.

 

i agreed with Podein's "rebuttal" and not to hammer you but I don't see that either. To me Couturier has the classic hesitation that players get when they face new responsibility. Watch him when he crosses the blue line, he kind of hits mud (unless he passes off right away). To me that's indecision, fear of making mistakes not lacks of wheels. Maybe he's no Marleau or Ovechkin but he's not Michael Handzus either.

 

It may take more than a few periods (!!) before he can expand the game he built for himself the past 2 years. Jeez how about giving the guy the whole season? Supposedly we're in a transition year anyway. Would it be so terrible if it takes him a year to carve out a new role in the NHL, one that potentially brings the Flyers 60, 70+ points year in year out afterwards?

 

Obviously his skating is a factor but it looks more like lack of confidence than foot speed. He doesn't hesitate when he's defending. The Flyers can afford to give their 1R pick one freaking season to find his offensive balls. By the TD we'll have a good idea what he can do. That's still only 60-some games but it'll be a helluva lot more than we know now. Right now all we know is that Berube (or somebody) didn't get the memo.

[brelic]

To me that's indecision, fear of making mistakes not lacks of wheels. Maybe he's no Marleau or Ovechkin but he's not Michael Handzus either.

 

Exactly exact. He's Jordan Staal

 

It may take more than a few periods (!!) before he can expand the game he built for himself the past 2 years. Jeez how about giving the guy the whole season? Supposedly we're in a transition year anyway. Would it be so terrible if it takes him a year to carve out a new role in the NHL, one that potentially brings the Flyers 60, 70+ points year in year out afterwards?

 

I wasn't just referring to the 4 games this season. He has never struck me as a quick decision maker in the offensive zone. I'm sure he will get better over time, so I'm only basing that on what I've seen from him since he started as a rookie 3 years ago. 

 

Personally, I don't see 70 points in his future. Not even 60. But what I think really doesn't matter and has no bearing on how much he'll actually produce. His thinking in the offensive zone just seems a tad behind the NHL speed - whether that's due to age/inexperience or not, we'll see over time.

 

I hope this kid turns into a 70+ point guy. I really like him as a player, and want him to have a great career here, especially during our Cup years

[King Knut]

I don't agree with that either. He sees the nice very well. He's often the catalyst for the transition out I their own end.

The problem for him is that he's always WAY down in their own end and so are his linemates.

He'd no one to pass to and has to bust through both defenders and usually the C he's guarding to get anywhere near an offensive play.

If they want him to score more they need to put him with speedy wingers who can blast out of the zone when he gets control of the puck.

Read is fast, but usually guarding his own man and down pretty deep himself and usually very focused on that and not necessarily noticing who had the puck for a second or two after Coots manages to get it.

If they want Coots to score more Berube has to be willing to take some risks.

I don't necessarily see that. I think he has fine instincts and sees the ice really well. I do think he needs to do more to get better in terms of skating and his shot. I hope he's not satisfied with the Jordan Staal comparison and wants more. That part is up to him.

Otherwise, it's like you said, you can't know until you try.

[Podein25]

I don't agree with that either. He sees the nice very well. He's often the catalyst for the transition out I their own end. 

The problem for him is that he's always WAY down in their own end and so are his linemates. 

 

This is where the discussion becomes about how he is being used and defensive zone vs offensive zone starts. His line is constantly being put in a position where they are tired by the time they turn the puck back the other way. If Cooter was better on faceoffs - and I think he will get better - that would help.

Other teams who want their talented 3rd line center to score some goals, use their 4th line to help out with the defensive zone starts. And around and around we go....it's all been said before. 

[AJgoal]

He is a bit better so far this year, running at 50.7% after 4 games. He ran at over 60% in the first two games, so we'll see how he does over a larger sample size.

[Podein25]

He is a bit better so far this year, running at 50.7% after 4 games. He ran at over 60% in the first two games, so we'll see how he does over a larger sample size.

 

Good to know. I haven't seen any of the first 4 games...