Can we actually accept "developing players" ?

[mojo1917]

Just an observation here:

Lots and lots of threads with a common theme.

The Flyers need a plan, no they're sticking to a plan, Hextall sucks, no he's fine Homer sucked . 

Hartnell, Umberger, Shultz Del Zotto ... more of the same, taking on other people's trash.

our young guys aren't talented, Schenns all suck, Couturier is slow...(i don't see it as much this year) 

We should play our kids, no we shouldn't , the older lousy young players in Allentown are better than the lousy players on the roster.

 

So the outrage, of which i am guilty leads me to believe, we as a fan base do not really want to "build the right way" because;

sucking is a by product of letting players develop.

 

The Couturier offensive zone starts and linemates with shots is a perfect example..."he should be what he's been , no we should let him grow, " the top line Schenn experiment, kiboshed after 5 periods.

 

The organization seems to be struggling with the same things we are, Chief talks a good game but when his team looks lost and stupid and slow, he cannot seem to "let things play out". so he's juggling lines and abandoning "the Plan" after a couple of unsuccessful periods.

 

i can't blame him , his job is to win games not let guys find their way. 

Just making an observation that we Flyers fans don't accept a shitty product, I think the Chairman has always known this and may be why he's run the team the way he has.

[radoran]

his job is to win games not let guys find their way.

 

His "job" is really to do whatever the organization wants him to do. If the GM wants to spend a season or two developing players and seeing what they have - that's a perfectly legitimate thing for a coach to do.

 

If that's what the GM wants and the coach is still playing the "I need to win games" game, that's a recipe for a coaching change.

 

But the question remains: is "developing players" - especially at the NHL level - what the GM wants? I think the organization as a whole wants to "compete for a Stanley Cup" every year.

 

It is too early to make a firm judgement on Hextall's tenure, but I do concur with those who are disappointed in moves like Schultz (del Zotto is only 24 after all).  One might also question the wisdom/need of signing a 29-year-old forward with no experience in the league when they have a backlog at the center position in the first place (or playing that lifelong winger as a center instead of the 22-year-old center they are supposedly "developing"), but I digress (and where to play the player is on the coach).

 

I don't know that we've really seen the "direction" the team is going.

 

I do think that (most of) the fanbase would support whichever direction they wanted to go - as long as there was a consistent move in that direction.

 

In the end, I expect they are likely to continue to try to navigate between both options.

[brelic]

At the end of the day, we're fans, and we act emotionally. It makes sense. 

 

But Hextall and co are paid NOT to act emotionally on these things. So when they tell us one thing ("we want to give Couturier more offensive zone starts and better wingers") and then abandon that strategy before it even starts, it can get frustrating as a fan. 

[JackStraw]

His "job" is really to do whatever the organization wants him to do. If the GM wants to spend a season or two developing players and seeing what they have - that's a perfectly legitimate thing for a coach to do.
 
If that's what the GM wants and the coach is still playing the "I need to win games" game, that's a recipe for a coaching change.

 

I agree with that as far as determining who makes the Flyers roster and who doesn't, but when it comes to line combinations and defense pairings the coach should have the last word. The coach is at every practice and every game, the GM isn't.

[radoran]

I agree with that as far as determining who makes the Flyers roster and who doesn't, but when it comes to line combinations and defense pairings the coach should have the last word. The coach is at every practice and every game, the GM isn't.

 

Do we know that? Heck, the owner is in the locker room on a frequent basis

 

I'm more talking about general direction and whether or not a coach feels the GM is going to fire him if the team isn't winning.

 

If the GM says "we're rebuilding this year, let's take a look at Couturier (for example) in a scoring role" and the coach still decides he's going to "win first" and plays Couturier (for example) exclusively as a third line checker then the coach has bigger problems.

 

He still answers, ultimately, to the GM.

[murraycraven]

Just an observation here:

Lots and lots of threads with a common theme.

The Flyers need a plan, no they're sticking to a plan, Hextall sucks, no he's fine Homer sucked . 

Hartnell, Umberger, Shultz Del Zotto ... more of the same, taking on other people's trash.

our young guys aren't talented, Schenns all suck, Couturier is slow...(i don't see it as much this year) 

We should play our kids, no we shouldn't , the older lousy young players in Allentown are better than the lousy players on the roster.

 

So the outrage, of which i am guilty leads me to believe, we as a fan base do not really want to "build the right way" because;

sucking is a by product of letting players develop.

 

The Couturier offensive zone starts and linemates with shots is a perfect example..."he should be what he's been , no we should let him grow, " the top line Schenn experiment, kiboshed after 5 periods.

 

The organization seems to be struggling with the same things we are, Chief talks a good game but when his team looks lost and stupid and slow, he cannot seem to "let things play out". so he's juggling lines and abandoning "the Plan" after a couple of unsuccessful periods.

 

i can't blame him , his job is to win games not let guys find their way. 

Just making an observation that we Flyers fans don't accept a shitty product, I think the Chairman has always known this and may be why he's run the team the way he has.

 

 

great post mojo...

 

I think for most around these parts it is confusing b/c there is a want for "win now" but a need to build a Team worth of being labeled as a "contender."  Personally I am all for patience with the kids and truly never thought this Team was anywhere near a contender.   This, more than ever, is a transition year while we wait for the young kids to round out the roster in a year or two.  

 

The one thing I find particularly odd is that Hextall is only 4 games in and people are already claiming he is Homer Duex.  I like the patience in his style and there have been no knee-jerk reactions thus far.   Some may claim that MDZ was a knee-jerk reaction after Kimmo went down but this was a very low risk signing that has the potential of being a high reward.   Hextall is stuck in a very tough spot b/c the majortiy of the fanbase always wants to win now.   For all of the heat Snider takes for this approach much of what has been written around here recently is literally following Snider's old philosophy.   Like I said in an earlier post the fanbase can't have it both ways.   I believe that Hextall has a vision for this Team and it is two to three down the road.

 

If people are in the "must win now" group they are in for a very tough ride.   This defense is horrid and the offense is a mis-match of players that really seem to not fit together.   I expect Hextall to make bad judgements on the way as I would any GM but I do expect him to be patient and actually build a Team for once.   Frankly, I think the kids are exactly where they should be right now.  They are getting valuable ice time and can work on their development.  

 

I vote patience - stick to the plan and build the Team.   If something comes along in a trade that is both fiscally sound and good for the hockey club (talent) then I am willing to listen.   I like the core of Simmonds, G, Jake, Cooter and will throw Schenn in there for now as well.   This is not about the present friends - this is all about building for the future.  

 

Hextall has a tough job ahead of him but let's not overrect here and claim he is another Homer.   Homer would have fired the Coach, traded for a hihg-priced veteran and then signed him to a 5 year deal w/ a NMC.   If the season progresses as we have seen of late I do believe this Team will be torn apart w/ the exception of the core.

 

Oh, and Homer would have thrown in a 2nd round pick or two as well...

[JackStraw]

Do we know that?

 

Do we know that? HELL NO! (after all, this is the Flyers we're talking about)

[radoran]

Some may claim that MDZ was a knee-jerk reaction after Kimmo went down but this was a very low risk signing that has the potential of being a high reward.

 

I've said that it was certainly a reaction to the loss of Timonen, but on the other hand del Zotto is just 24 years old.

 

It's not like they went out and signed a Mark Streit to a five year deal or anything

[murraycraven]

I've said that it was certainly a reaction to the loss of Timonen, but on the other hand del Zotto is just 24 years old.

 

It's not like they went out and signed a Mark Streit to a five year deal or anything

 

 

Exactly... although, I think Jack and I were the only Streit supporters at the time they signed him. 

[brelic]

Hextall has a tough job ahead of him but let's not overrect here and claim he is another Homer.  

 

I mentioned in another thread before the season started that we'll only have a real handle on Hextall when certain pressure points arise during the course of the season.

 

As an example, if we're out of the playoff picture by Christmas (say 8-10 points out) or if we suffer a number of key injuries, the way Hextall reacts in those situations will give us a better indication of his management style and his long-term vision for the team.

[brelic]

Exactly... although, I think Jack and I were the only Streit supporters at the time they signed him. 

 

I liked Streit just fine. As with most of Homer's acquisitions, it was the contract that I didn't like.

[DaGreatGazoo]

I don't know that we've really seen the "direction" the team is going.
 
I do think that (most of) the fanbase would support whichever direction they wanted to go - as long as there was a consistent move in that direction.

 

Agreed.

[brelic]

Along those lines, is it possible that Voracek could be better used elsewhere? I mean, I don't get the sense that G and Voracek have a ton of chemistry together - certainly less than Jagr and G developed in less than one season together. That was impressive.

 

Try Schenner and Simmer with Rooster, and move Jakey with Vinny and Matty or Mikey. While Vinny's out, maybe move Cooter to play Jakey and Matty.

 

Umburglar can hold down the 3rd line fort with Mikey and Frenchie.

 

 

In plain English - 

 

Schenn/Giroux/Simmonds

Read/Couturier/Voracek (but Read/Lecavalier/Voracek with VLC is back)

Raffl/Umberger/Bellemare

Rinaldo/Vandevelde/Jones

 

 

Just some food for thought. Since Berube doesn't like sticking to any one combination anyway, may as well get all experimental.

[AndyS]

I would like to see Schenn play center on a regular basis. Quit jerking the kid around.

 

If he & Cooter are the future stars of this hockey club, how about allowing them to develop properly.

 

Heck, I'd even like to see Laughton as the 4th line center

 

I'd also rather see the kids on defense up with the Flyers. It would be more fun to watch Ghost, Morin, Hagg & Lauridson (spelling?) learn on the job than watching the older guys out there who can't play worth beans anyway.

[hf101]

Nope:

 

I'm not accepting the excuse for "developing players" because imo, a huge part any player development plan is getting them minutes in the NHL. 

 

Here is THE PLAN...  it has nothing to do with development.

 

Hextal will do what ever it takes to keep the talent in the AHL this season becuse the new arena in Allentown didn't come free and they need to have folks buy tickets.  An exciting Phantoms team of young prospects is the perfect solution.  

 

The Flyers will continue to block the advancement of it's youth this season as most tickets for the season are all ready sold for the big club.

 

it is all about the money...

 

[radoran]

Nope:

 

I'm not accepting the excuse for "developing players" because imo, a huge part any player development plan is getting them minutes in the NHL. 

 

Here is THE PLAN...  it has nothing to do with development.

 

Hextal will do what ever it takes to keep the talent in the AHL this season becuse the new arena in Allentown didn't come free and they need to have folks buy tickets.  An exciting Phantoms team of young prospects is the perfect solution.  

 

The Flyers will continue to block the advancement of it's youth this season as most tickets for the season are all ready sold for the big club.

 

it is all about the money...

 

 

If you really believe all of that - and that the team is willing to sacrifice NHL success for AHL money - then there is no hope for the future of the franchise or, for that matter, sport in general.

 

Four games into the season and you're already declaring that "developing players" will not get "minutes in the NHL'

 

That's an absurd assertion to make.

 

For one thing, the building in Allentown cost $158M to build and they've already sold $234M in bonds to cover the costs. (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/allentown/mc-ppl-center-timeline-20140927-story.html)

 

The Phantoms have "committed" $6.7M a year in rent to the building for the next $29 years.

 

By way of comparison, Comcast is paying Ilya Bryzgalov $1.6M a year for the next 14 years not to play for them. That alone could pay the rent for the next 3+ years. Put another way, that $6.7M is about what it costs the Flyers to put Michael Raffl and RJ Umburglar on the ice this year.

 

Speaking of Comcast, the company has a $128B (that's Billion with a B) market cap and has $3.85B (again with the Bs) cash on hand. The rent for PPL Center represents a whopping .17% (that's point-one-seven percent) of that cash on hand: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=CMCSA+Key+Statistics

 

But, hey, don't the facts get in the way of the tinfoil.

[DaGreatGazoo]

the building in Allentown cost $158M

 

Paid 100% by my outrageous monthly cable bill.      

[hf101]

@radoran

 

Yeah, I do believe it, I don't expect to see the likes of Laughton, Gostisbehere, or Hagg with the Flyers this season.  Of course Hextall isn't going to say we need fans in the seats to support the Phantoms he says it in other words and uses the excuse the players are developing.  Developing players need NHL ice time.

 

The Phantoms struggled through a 30-38-8 season in 2013-14, and Hextall said "the attitude there has to change. I didn't like the attitude last year in Glen Falls as a group, and we made a lot of changes this year, and that's why."

Hextall brought in a handful of veterans for the Phantoms, including forwards Darroll Powe; Zack Stortini; Andrew Gordon; and Brett Hextall, the GM's son.

They will complement promising youngsters such as goalie Anthony Stolarz, winger Taylor Leier, and defenseman Robert Hagg, along with rookies sent down by the Flyers.

"We've got to get back to winning games and developing players and just being a top American League franchise," Hextall said.

http://articles.philly.com/2014-09-29/sports/54404602_1_nick-cousins-flyers-and-phantoms-the-phantoms

 

Winning Franchises sell tickets.  This is all about having a successful season for the Phantoms.  They expect players will develop as being a part of a winning franchise.  Take the blinders off folks, these prospects are not going to get ice time with the Flyers this season, send me a plate of crow if they do. 

[Howie58]

This is an interesting thread. I was a high school senior when we won our last Cup so patience is my middle-name when it comes to being a Flyers fan.  

 

On that score, my expectations for this year and next are very low.  But I take a slightly different take on the forwards and look at the SO problem as a barometer. We keep thinking there's a good young cadre of forwards.  Heck, maybe Coots is nothing more than a future Selke candidate (nothing wrong with that but he may not be a big scorer)?  Maybe Schenn (B) wasn't the best player outside the NHL (Homer's claim). I agree with Brelic that we might get a taste of that come the trade deadline or sooner if things don't pan for the prospects.  Let's face it, the D can be effectively disposed of fairly soon (I think Streit is the longest left, correct...Grossman and others are not so long).  

 

Berube is caught between a rock and a hard place...two demanding bosses and Comcast.  He deserves the right to coach this year based on last year's performance but it remains to be seen if he is a "developmental" coach.  He imposed order on chaos last year but that may not be the same as instilling a system that works long-term. And he has to do that with troops that may be gone very soon.  It ain't a good scene.  He is cleaning up after Homer's long-term HR decisions.  

 

Best,

 

Howie

[radoran]

Take the blinders off folks, these prospects are not going to get ice time with the Flyers this season, send me a plate of crow if they do.

 

The whole "building is already paid for" aspect doesn't dissuade you from the "they are in it for the money"? Okeley dokeley.

 

You realize the very sentence you bolded has "developing players" in it, right? Of course they want the Phantoms to be successful. It's harder to get guys into a winning mindset when they're on a godawful team.

 

Your order is placed and accepted.

 

We'll notify you when it's ready

 

(I don't expect to see Hagg this season - but I think Laughton and Ghost are locks to be brought up)

[murraycraven]

Man... Things are getting strange around here....

[briere48]

i think biggest problem with this team is there's no fight in this team, you have so many players on d that dont defend, dont skate, they look like they just dont care at all, even the forwards.

 

that's what i mean by culture change, not only they need a new coach, but they need a group of players that are committed to winning and this current team is just not doing anything, that's why la and chicago won two stanley cups because they want to win and never quit that's their mentality every year, clarke kept this team competing and going in the playoffs every year, because he brought in players that were committed to winning, it wasnt just about talent.

[mojo1917]

@Howie58

 

that might be the best analysis i've seen.  I have not been thinking about how to motivate players that are feeling they will be "turned over' in the near future. i'll bet that is tough.

I guess the good news is that those players will indeed be turned over.  

 

I'm not feeling really great about Andrew MacDonald this year, he looks ...not good, not ready for top pairing assignments anyway. I don't think i've seen him make a physical play vs the rush once when he's been on the ice, he concedes the blue line and sags back, never displays one ounce of confidence in his ability to break a play up until it is past the faceoff dots. As of right now  I'd be fine with turning him over too .

[radoran]

I guess the good news is that those players will indeed be turned over.

 

Well, good. Since we had such success with the last roster turnover

 

he concedes the blue line and sags back, never displays one ounce of confidence in his ability to break a play up until it is past the faceoff dots.

 

Well, he needs his chances to pad his blocked shot total.

[murraycraven]

Winning Franchises sell tickets

 

Going by that logic why would the Flyers have picked up the Reading Royals of the ECHL?   You go to playoff games and the stadium is literally 1/3 filled.