How Would A Prime Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe And Orr Do In Todays NHL

[WordsOfWisdom]

Tell me about it.

 

 

Holy geez. Check out them pipes! 

[WordsOfWisdom]

Yeah, no room for a guy who's 6'0", 200 pounds.

 

Man, I just realized Erik Karlsson will never make it... He's only 5'11", 180 pounds...

 

 

My post was meant to be tongue in cheek. 

[ScottM]

My post was meant to be tongue in cheek. 

 

I know. I was teasing too. That's why I threw in the  . Lol

[King Knut]

How do you think they would fare in todays game?

Personally, I think Lemieux and Gretzky would still be leading the NHL in points today.

Because a 37 year old Gretzky in 1997 still had 90 points. There is even more proof Lemieux would dominate todays NHL.

A 37 year old Lemieux in 2002 still had 91 points in 67 games. Also, Jagr was still able to score 123 points in 2005 as a 34 year old and we all know Lemieux and Gretzky are clearly superior to Jagr.

Although i dont know how Howe or Orr would fare in todays NHL.

I don't know. The game has literally changed because of them. I think they'd still dance around defenses and thread passes, but goals would be down because of the goalie gear today being so much bigger and lighter.

Also, the days of the enforcer are gone and both of them had bruisers shadowing them and protecting them from too much aggression.

I think they'd still lead the league, but 215 points and 92 goals would never happen now.

[JagerMeister]

I don't know. The game has literally changed because of them. I think they'd still dance around defenses and thread passes, but goals would be down because of the goalie gear today being so much bigger and lighter.

Also, the days of the enforcer are gone and both of them had bruisers shadowing them and protecting them from too much aggression.

I think they'd still lead the league, but 215 points and 92 goals would never happen now.

Except for the fact that today's league is far less physical then the leagues of the past, the majority of the hits taken place in those times would not be tolerated in todays league. Lemieux was able to withstand all the physical abuse, Gretzky would rarely allow himself to get hit primarily due to his agility and intelligence, Howe was one of the toughest players ever, Orr is the only one I am uncertain about.

[flyercanuck]

@JagerMeister

 

Orr was as tough as nails. He was one of the superstars who would fight his own battles.

[J0e Th0rnton]

With no red line? Ugh

[ScottM]

Except for the fact that today's league is far less physical then the leagues of the past, the majority of the hits taken place in those times would not be tolerated in todays league. Lemieux was able to withstand all the physical abuse, Gretzky would rarely allow himself to get hit primarily due to his agility and intelligence, Howe was one of the toughest players ever, Orr is the only one I am uncertain about.

 

Since it was the physical style of play that Orr engaged in that played a big role in ruining his knees, from my perspective it stands to reason that he would gain the most when you look at it from that perspective. The guy was an amazing skater and could do it all on both ends. If you can't beat him up, how are you going to stop him?

[JagerMeister]

Since it was the physical style of play that Orr engaged in that played a big role in ruining his knees, from my perspective it stands to reason that he would gain the most when you look at it from that perspective. The guy was an amazing skater and could do it all on both ends. If you can't beat him up, how are you going to stop him?

So kind of like a Forsberg type situation in which his style of play played a crucial part in the shortening of his career? Wouldn't that make Orr probable to have a diminished career in today's league? Even if the league is less physical when it comes to hits, there are more athletic and conditioned players on average now, which would make it more difficult for Orr to push guys around. This also applies to Howe as well but he was far more durable then Orr. Perhaps I'm underestimating Orr.

[ScottM]

So kind of like a Forsberg type situation in which his style of play played a crucial part in the shortening of his career? Wouldn't that make Orr probable to have a diminished career in today's league? Even if the league is less physical when it comes to hits, there are more athletic and conditioned players on average now, which would make it more difficult for Orr to push guys around. This also applies to Howe as well but he was far more durable then Orr. Perhaps I'm underestimating Orr.

 

I'd make two counter arguments. 1) If Orr were a player in today's game, he would have the same conditioning and training methods available to him as today's players do, so to me that aspect of it is a wash. 2) If the league was more physical in the 60s and 70s, what would have happened to Forsberg in that time? Would the casual fan even know his name? It stands to reason that under that assumption, he would have taken more of a pounding, and probably would have seen his career shortened even more.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying that Orr would've had a 1,000 game career or anything, but I think there's a distinct possibility that he would have lasted a little longer.

[JR Ewing]

I'd make two counter arguments. 1) If Orr were a player in today's game, he would have the same conditioning and training methods available to him as today's players do, so to me that aspect of it is a wash. 2) If the league was more physical in the 60s and 70s, what would have happened to Forsberg in that time? Would the casual fan even know his name? It stands to reason that under that assumption, he would have taken more of a pounding, and probably would have seen his career shortened even more.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying that Orr would've had a 1,000 game career or anything, but I think there's a distinct possibility that he would have lasted a little longer.

 

Plus: the procedures to repair his injuries have come a LONG way since the 1970s.

[JagerMeister]

I'd make two counter arguments. 1) If Orr were a player in today's game, he would have the same conditioning and training methods available to him as today's players do, so to me that aspect of it is a wash. 2) If the league was more physical in the 60s and 70s, what would have happened to Forsberg in that time? Would the casual fan even know his name? It stands to reason that under that assumption, he would have taken more of a pounding, and probably would have seen his career shortened even more.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying that Orr would've had a 1,000 game career or anything, but I think there's a distinct possibility that he would have lasted a little longer.

With a league that takes far less physical toll then past era's? Yes, his career would have lasted somewhat longer. Maybe comparable to Karlsson in today's league except considerably better in all aspects of the game, in addition to having a physical grit that Karlsson is lacking, and you unanimously have the greatest defenseman every year in his prime.  

[ScottM]

and you unanimously have the greatest defenseman every year in his prime.  

 

He was that during his actual career, with the eight consecutive Norris Trophies. Imagine him healthy... Now, THAT is a scary thought...

[JagerMeister]

He was that during his actual career, with the eight consecutive Norris Trophies. Imagine him healthy... Now, THAT is a scary thought...

haha, I didn't mean to make it sound like he was not unanimously the best defenseman during his actual career.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Except for the fact that today's league is far less physical then the leagues of the past, the majority of the hits taken place in those times would not be tolerated in todays league. Lemieux was able to withstand all the physical abuse, Gretzky would rarely allow himself to get hit primarily due to his agility and intelligence, Howe was one of the toughest players ever, Orr is the only one I am uncertain about.

 

What do you guys think about the overall improvement in the physical conditioning of all players? Is it possible for one player to stand out like Gretzky or Orr did in their time when everyone in today's NHL is fast, big, and highly skilled?

 

As an example, Ovechkin could probably turn defenders from the 70's and 80's into knots... most of them. Today, even a player as elite as Ovechkin has difficulty out-skating anyone. You can't blow by defenders and have the goalie fall on his side to make a weak save attempt anymore. The goalies just play angles and make for good statues and the defenders can skate backwards as fast as the fastest forwards can skate forwards. There really isn't much of a gap between ordinary and exceptional players anymore, at least when it comes to the basics of strength, speed, etc.

 

I think -- seriously this time -- if Gretzky played in the NHL today, he wouldn't be able to wheel around and exploit defenders with his speed like he did in the 80's. He would be pushed out to the perimeter by defenders that are fast, better coached, and that aren't fooled by those types of moves. Goalies would cut off the angles. Larger equipment and larger goalies would reduce the available net to shoot at. Players would take runs at Gretzky and go head hunting like they do with Crosby, concussing him and putting him out of action for half a season. The center ice area would be clogged up by the trap, forcing a modern day Gretzky to dump the puck in and chase after it more often than not. Penalties end on a goal, so you can't score two or three goals on a single powerplay anymore. The longer reach of today's players would prove to be almost impossible to avoid. Then there's the composition of the team: there are no dynasties anymore. Gretzky would be surrounded by a bunch of pawns, not a bunch of all-stars if he played today. His slick passing skills would go to waste on his linemates that have hands of stone. Gretzky (if he led the league in scoring) would be lucky to get 100 points in the NHL today me thinks.  

[ScottM]

What do you guys think about the overall improvement in the physical conditioning of all players? Is it possible for one player to stand out like Gretzky or Orr did in their time when everyone in today's NHL is fast, big, and highly skilled?

 

As an example, Ovechkin could probably turn defenders from the 70's and 80's into knots... most of them. Today, even a player as elite as Ovechkin has difficulty out-skating anyone. You can't blow by defenders and have the goalie fall on his side to make a weak save attempt anymore. The goalies just play angles and make for good statues and the defenders can skate backwards as fast as the fastest forwards can skate forwards. There really isn't much of a gap between ordinary and exceptional players anymore, at least when it comes to the basics of strength, speed, etc.

 

I think -- seriously this time -- if Gretzky played in the NHL today, he wouldn't be able to wheel around and exploit defenders with his speed like he did in the 80's. He would be pushed out to the perimeter by defenders that are fast, better coached, and that aren't fooled by those types of moves. Goalies would cut off the angles. Larger equipment and larger goalies would reduce the available net to shoot at. Players would take runs at Gretzky and go head hunting like they do with Crosby, concussing him and putting him out of action for half a season. The center ice area would be clogged up by the trap, forcing a modern day Gretzky to dump the puck in and chase after it more often than not. Penalties end on a goal, so you can't score two or three goals on a single powerplay anymore. The longer reach of today's players would prove to be almost impossible to avoid. Then there's the composition of the team: there are no dynasties anymore. Gretzky would be surrounded by a bunch of pawns, not a bunch of all-stars if he played today. His slick passing skills would go to waste on his linemates that have hands of stone. Gretzky (if he led the league in scoring) would be lucky to get 100 points in the NHL today me thinks.  

 

They'd be fine, because they'd have access to all the training and conditioning methods that players today have. A guy that was faster back then with the methods they had would most likely still be faster today with the methods we have now. You could say the same thing for strength or what have you too. I don't think there would be any drop in their dominance.

[JR Ewing]

-Great players will always be great, but the skills a player has may be better suited to a certain era.

-Gretzky or Orr would be the best players in hockey today, but the difference between them and the average player is smaller now, because the standard has risen. They would be great, but wouldn't have as much chance to dominate.

[WordsOfWisdom]

They'd be fine, because they'd have access to all the training and conditioning methods that players today have. A guy that was faster back then with the methods they had would most likely still be faster today with the methods we have now. You could say the same thing for strength or what have you too. I don't think there would be any drop in their dominance.

 

But "domination" in today's NHL means that you're lucky to get 100 points as a forward. So if Gretzky played his entire career now (in the same era that Crosby has played in), he would "dominate" the NHL by having maybe 1500 points in his entire career. Any notion of 2000+ points would be a pipe dream. That's all I was saying. 

 

Another factor today is how teams roll four lines and go at 100% intensity for the entire game. So Gretzky can also count on less ice time if he played today.

[ScottM]

But "domination" in today's NHL means that you're lucky to get 100 points as a forward. So if Gretzky played his entire career now (in the same era that Crosby has played in), he would "dominate" the NHL by having maybe 1500 points in his entire career. Any notion of 2000+ points would be a pipe dream. That's all I was saying. 

 

Another factor today is how teams roll four lines and go at 100% intensity for the entire game. So Gretzky can also count on less ice time if he played today.

 

His total stats would be lower, no doubt, but I don't think for a moment he'd struggle to get to 100 points in his prime. After all, we're talking about a guy who broke 200 points four times, while no one other than him and Lemieux has ever had more than 155 points. He'd still clear everyone else by dozens of points. He wouldn't have 2.857 points, but he'd still have a ridiculously large amount. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he still ended up as the all-time points leader.

 

Also, if I had Wayne Gretzky on my team, I'm going to get him all the ice time I can. I'd want to give him every possible chance to work his magic.

[JagerMeister]

What do you guys think about the overall improvement in the physical conditioning of all players? Is it possible for one player to stand out like Gretzky or Orr did in their time when everyone in today's NHL is fast, big, and highly skilled?

 

As an example, Ovechkin could probably turn defenders from the 70's and 80's into knots... most of them. Today, even a player as elite as Ovechkin has difficulty out-skating anyone. You can't blow by defenders and have the goalie fall on his side to make a weak save attempt anymore. The goalies just play angles and make for good statues and the defenders can skate backwards as fast as the fastest forwards can skate forwards. There really isn't much of a gap between ordinary and exceptional players anymore, at least when it comes to the basics of strength, speed, etc.

 

I think -- seriously this time -- if Gretzky played in the NHL today, he wouldn't be able to wheel around and exploit defenders with his speed like he did in the 80's. He would be pushed out to the perimeter by defenders that are fast, better coached, and that aren't fooled by those types of moves. Goalies would cut off the angles. Larger equipment and larger goalies would reduce the available net to shoot at. Players would take runs at Gretzky and go head hunting like they do with Crosby, concussing him and putting him out of action for half a season. The center ice area would be clogged up by the trap, forcing a modern day Gretzky to dump the puck in and chase after it more often than not. Penalties end on a goal, so you can't score two or three goals on a single powerplay anymore. The longer reach of today's players would prove to be almost impossible to avoid. Then there's the composition of the team: there are no dynasties anymore. Gretzky would be surrounded by a bunch of pawns, not a bunch of all-stars if he played today. His slick passing skills would go to waste on his linemates that have hands of stone. Gretzky (if he led the league in scoring) would be lucky to get 100 points in the NHL today me thinks.  

   A 37 year old Gretzky way past his prime was able to produce at a 1.10 ppg pace throughout 82 games and still led the league in assists in 1997 (the late 90s being an almost identical scoring environment to todays league, although vaguely higher scoring. Now lets not forget  subsequently after Gretzky endured the the Suter hit, he still outproduced a Prime Selanne, and was on par with a Prime Jagr as well. As we both know, Selanne more so then Jagr was capable of producing at a high level at the ripe age of 40. Finishing 8th in points while missing approximately 8 games in 2010. Another example, 37 year old Lemieux still put up 91 points...in 61 games during the 2002 season, and was 2nd in ppg (again, vaguely higher scoring era than today that it can be considered insignificant).

 

Oh and adressing the bolded point you made, Gretzky agility kept him prone from getting hit for the most part. As far as im concerned, Crosby is far less agile then Gretzky.

 

In all honesty, I still believe Gretzky and Lemieux would be able to elevate themselves above the rest of the elite players, and be considered in a league of their own. Gretzky being the most intelligent player on the ice in hockey history, would be able to exploit the weaknesses of today's league.

[JR Ewing]

His total stats would be lower, no doubt, but I don't think for a moment he'd struggle to get to 100 points in his prime. After all, we're talking about a guy who broke 200 points four times, while no one other than him and Lemieux has ever had more than 155 points. He'd still clear everyone else by dozens of points. He wouldn't have 2.857 points, but he'd still have a ridiculously large amount. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he still ended up as the all-time points leader.

 

Also, if I had Wayne Gretzky on my team, I'm going to get him all the ice time I can. I'd want to give him every possible chance to work his magic.

 

Yes. I think it very fair to point out that, when adjusted for era, Gretzky is still the runaway leader in career scoring:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_career.html

 

That doesn't tell the entire story, since the talent level of the league wasn't as high when Wayne (or Orr or Howe for that matter) was in his prime, but it helps cut through some of the table-hockey era scoring numbers of those days.

[Born To Be Wild]

I think all 4 of those greats would be at the elite level of players in the game today. Gretzky and Lemieux in their prime could possible still be #1 and #2 in scoring in todays game. I don't know as much about Orr & Howe other than they were greats of the game because I haven't seen as much videos on them as I have with Gretzky and Lemieux. From what I have heard though about Orr and Howe they would be stars as well in the game today.