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Most Overrated Superstar NHL Player


JagerMeister

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Ouch. Kinda feel sorry for Gretzky. He was the best player on a 4-Cup winner, was awarded a Conn Smythe and could easily have won another two or three. I remember the articles in the media at the time, and they were a bit a farce sometimes: "After putting the Oilers up 5-0 on 2 goals and 3 assists from Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier took over in the 3rd period for a 5-1 win." :/

So yeah, after he left Edmonton, he never won another Cup, which shouldn't be a surprise: the Kings were a rebuilding team, finishing 4th last in the league the year before. They spent a few years re-tooling before 1993, when Gretz picked up that team on his bad back and hauled them to the Finals where they lost 3 games in OT.

But Mark Messier "intangibles" should instanly give him a Conn smythe over Gretzky :ph34r: . I never liked Messier. His "leadership" really showed in Vancouver. Granted he was pretty old but still.

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  Mats had some decent wingers in his career, but for the most part, he was forced to do a lot of it by himself. At least most teams have a decent 2nd line, to take some of the checking heat off the main star, Toronto had nothing fitting that description.

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  Mats had some decent wingers in his career, but for the most part, he was forced to do a lot of it by himself. At least most teams have a decent 2nd line, to take some of the checking heat off the main star, Toronto had nothing fitting that description.

Im aware of that, but he was also never a top 10 player. I  think that he was a great player but should not be in the HHOF. That is for the players that stood out of the rest IMO.

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But Mark Messier "intangibles" should instanly give him a Conn smythe over Gretzky :ph34r: . I never liked Messier. His "leadership" really showed in Vancouver. Granted he was pretty old but still.

Let's not go TOO far. Messier was a leader, though nobody would have thought that when he was 20 years old and failing to report to camp (partying: the stories of him as a wild young man in Edmonton are legend), missing team flights, buses, etc. Glen Sather felt he had to do SOMETHING to straighten out the kid, so he sent him to Houston to teach him a lesson. Mess ripped it up on and off the ice, with Sather eventually figuring it was better to keep an eye on him personally in Edmonton if he wasn't going to change. I just tell this story because it's fun.

But, you're right: his time in Vancouver was pretty miserable. Ownership gave him way too much power, way too much say, and he was a shadow of himself on the ice. I don't really know what happened there. We can't ignore it, but I don't think it erases his past, which was generally good on the ice.

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Im aware of that, but he was also never a top 10 player. I  think that he was a great player but should not be in the HHOF. That is for the players that stood out of the rest IMO.

 

 Well, Mats is 49th all time in points per game...considering how high scoring a few of the past decades were, that is quite a feat.

 

 Some players that Mats averaged more pts per game than (he came in at 1.002 btw)

 

 Joe Mullen

Potvin

Reattle

Propp

Rocket Richard

Joe Thornton

Rick Middleton

Ray Bourque

Jacques Lemaire

Luc Robitaille

Naslund

Patrick Kane

Datsuyk

Geztaf

Gilmour

Neeley

Zetterberg

Federov

Frank Mahovlich

Mike Gartner

Alfie

Recchi

Modando

St.Louis

 

 

 Those are a lot of great players to outscore....with limited help I might add....

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Another one that came to mind, i dont know if he really is a superstar, but i have found Alexei Kovalev to be quite overrated. Apparently the most talented player some claim. Or that he could have been the best player in the world if he had heart AKA "canadian spirit". I find all of those claims to be false.

How did he singlehandedly sabotage his team? by not playing defense? his main job is to score after all and he did just that in his more dynamic years.

His job is to play the system and role the coach gives him. He repeatedly and consistently selfishly overstayed his shifts, failed to win even a series, and buried several coaches in "his more dynamic years."

And, really, the teams around him were good enough to have better results. The problem was their captain and supposed super star was too busy stroking himself to contribute in an effective way to help move them forward.

I'm sorry but for several seasons he's talked about in the same breath with Crosby in debates about who's the best player. As soon as his name comes up in any "best player" discussion he is being highly overated. He's very good at his one trick, but he's a one trick pony.

I'm willing to bet that you take several of those Caps teams who did very well on the regular season and, going into the playoffs, replace Ovechkin with Toews or Kopitar or Datsyuk or Zetterberg and they go a lot further if not even win it.

In a discussion of skill, not overated.

In a discussion of best player or full grown adult: overated as hell

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Mats had some decent wingers in his career, but for the most part, he was forced to do a lot of it by himself. At least most teams have a decent 2nd line, to take some of the checking heat off the main star, Toronto had nothing fitting that description.

Sundin was the master of the garbage points.

down 5-1 there was no one better at making it 5-2.

"Point per game player"

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Maybe he shoulders a large part of the blame because his team underachieves? They have strong regular season success and just can't put the whole thing together in the playoffs.

 

Of course, in context, it would be a record most teams would love to have. In the last 13 seasons, they've finished 1st in their division 6 times - that's half the time. And another 4 times they finished 2nd. 

 

They only made it past the 2nd round 3 times, and never to the SCF. 

 

That's a great run of success in the regular season and post-season appearances. They've definitely had more playoff success than the Flyers over that same span.

 

But for the strength of their team over so many years, I think a lot of fans see it as underachieving because they seemingly had everything they needed for at least one Cup in there somewhere.

 

As you noted, his numbers drop in the playoffs a little. It's not enough to call him bad, but enough for people to overreact and say he's horrible in the playoffs. A part of it is his actual drop off, it's just overstated, but it's largely his team's success (or lack of it) in the playoffs imo that causes that reaction.

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"Toews gets something that Crosby can only dream of, respect. It is something that is earned and for all of his skill and ability, Crosby is severely lacking in that department."

 

Sorry but that's taking a dump on the guy - especially when it's flat out wrong.  And I didn't even bring up his leadership during the lockout.  He was front and center for the players during that time. Don't think for a second that went unnoticed....and earned him a whole boatload of respect from his peers.

 

I find Flyers fans hate of Crosby to be mostly irrational based on the success of a division rival. Case in point this conversation. He gets brought into a conversation just for the sake of a cheap pot shot.

 

These are the same people who call him whiny and classless, but cheer for Bobby Clarke. "Clarkie" was a dirty player plain and simple. He was a bitch too. He liked to use his stick and then run when called upon to answer for his own dirty play. Crosby is whiny, and yeah he has one of those faces you just don't like to look at (especially when he's whining), but there's been dirtier or whiner players in the game. Hell, Malkin bothers me more than Crosby. Malkin takes a dive if you breath on him too hard and at least Crosby is willing to mix it up. And Every single Flyers fan that goes overboard when talking about him would defend him to the death if he were in the "Orange and Black".

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His job is to play the system and role the coach gives him. He repeatedly and consistently selfishly overstayed his shifts, failed to win even a series, and buried several coaches in "his more dynamic years."

And, really, the teams around him were good enough to have better results. The problem was their captain and supposed super star was too busy stroking himself to contribute in an effective way to help move them forward.

I'm sorry but for several seasons he's talked about in the same breath with Crosby in debates about who's the best player. As soon as his name comes up in any "best player" discussion he is being highly overated. He's very good at his one trick, but he's a one trick pony.

I'm willing to bet that you take several of those Caps teams who did very well on the regular season and, going into the playoffs, replace Ovechkin with Toews or Kopitar or Datsyuk or Zetterberg and they go a lot further if not even win it.

In a discussion of skill, not overated.

In a discussion of best player or full grown adult: overated as hell

He was a selfish bastard, but he also contributed by scoring goals, isnt that an "effective" way. Apparently he was a one trick pony but even Crosby was just a point getter and nothing else really when he was younger. 

 

And i think its just right he is mentioned with Crosby among the best player in the world, i mean you can say all you want about his selfishness but he has a really impressive set of awards. Still Crosby>Ovi though

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 Well, Mats is 49th all time in points per game...considering how high scoring a few of the past decades were, that is quite a feat.

 

 Some players that Mats averaged more pts per game than (he came in at 1.002 btw)

 

 Joe Mullen

Potvin

Reattle

Propp

Rocket Richard

Joe Thornton

Rick Middleton

Ray Bourque

Jacques Lemaire

Luc Robitaille

Naslund

Patrick Kane

Datsuyk

Geztaf

Gilmour

Neeley

Zetterberg

Federov

Frank Mahovlich

Mike Gartner

Alfie

Recchi

Modando

St.Louis

 

 

 Those are a lot of great players to outscore....with limited help I might add....

You can argue his consistency is his greatness but he just never had that really amazing year. if you are a fan of compliers then i guess he could be in the HHOF. Just never thought he stood out amongst the rest and never proved himself a top 10 player in the league.

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I find Flyers fans hate of Crosby to be mostly irrational based on the success of a division rival. Case in point this conversation. He gets brought into a conversation just for the sake of a cheap pot shot.

 

 

Couldn't agree more.  I just don't get all the Toews ball-slobbering. If you measure leadership by what one does as captain, Crosby is right up there with him. Take the "C" off either of them and little, if anything, changes as far as what their teams have done throughout their careers. Since Toews gets elevated because of these overrated leadership skills then I have to call him....overrated. Good player. Not great.  

 

These are the same people who call him whiny and classless, but cheer for Bobby Clarke. "Clarkie" was a dirty player plain and simple. He was a bitch too. He liked to use his stick and then run when called upon to answer for his own dirty play. Crosby is whiny, and yeah he has one of those faces you just don't like to look at (especially when he's whining), but there's been dirtier or whiner players in the game. Hell, Malkin bothers me more than Crosby. Malkin takes a dive if you breath on him too hard and at least Crosby is willing to mix it up. And Every single Flyers fan that goes overboard when talking about him would defend him to the death if he were in the "Orange and Black".

 

To borrow a recently used quote from another poster, "Get your fire suit on".  ;)

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Another one that came to mind, i dont know if he really is a superstar, but i have found Alexei Kovalev to be quite overrated. Apparently the most talented player some claim. Or that he could have been the best player in the world if he had heart AKA "canadian spirit". I find all of those claims to be false.

 

I think that was the general consensus on Kovalev throughout his career so I wouldn't call him "overrated".  He was generally regarding as a highly skilled but "unmotivated" player.  To quote Denny Green: "He was who we thought he was."

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Couldn't agree more.  I just don't get all the Toews ball-slobbering. If you measure leadership by what one does as captain, Crosby is right up there with him. Take the "C" off either of them and little, if anything, changes as far as what their teams have done throughout their careers. Since Toews gets elevated because of these overrated leadership skills then I have to call him....overrated. Good player. Not great.  

 

 

 

 

To borrow a recently used quote from another poster, "Get your fire suit on".  ;)

 

I said it earlier, but I go back and forth on both Toews and Kane. Neither of their numbers are blow your mind away impressive. They're not bad, just not "ball-slobbering" as you put it. But they are responsible for the organization's return from the dead and their only championships in the modern era. There's some intangibles going on there for that to happen and everything you read about Toews implies he's a good leader. Without having watched much of Chicago, my guess is they are both good (but not great, like you said) and are just on the right team. If they didn't have each other or were made the focal point of a team, they arguably wouldn't have that success.

 

I don't need it. Anyone who would freak out over those statements is someone who lacks an objective opinion and should be dismissed (after maybe laughing at them first).

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Sundin was the master of the garbage points.

down 5-1 there was no one better at making it 5-2.

"Point per game player"

 

Mats is the all time leader of the Leafs franchise with 79 game winning goals. He also holds the all time record for single season game winning goals with 10.....so there is that.....

 

 In fact, Mats is 7th ALL TIME in game winning goals, he has 96 when you add in the playoffs. That makes him one of the best money players of all time, a far cry from garbage pts....no?

 

 http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-game-winning-goals-leaders.html

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He was a selfish bastard, but he also contributed by scoring goals, isnt that an "effective" way. Apparently he was a one trick pony but even Crosby was just a point getter and nothing else really when he was younger. 

 

And i think its just right he is mentioned with Crosby among the best player in the world, i mean you can say all you want about his selfishness but he has a really impressive set of awards. Still Crosby>Ovi though

 

 

And won a Cup and went deep in another finals.   And was a heckuva faceoff guy.  I'm not trying to defend Crosby (as a Flyers' fan, it's genetically impossible).  

 

As to the "isn't that an effective way."  

3 times did not qualify for the playoffs

3 times one round and done.

2 times second round, once a sweep.

1-5 in game sevens.   2G 2A in those games.   one goal was down 5-0 to Pitt in the clincher (Crosby was 2G 1A in the same game).  The other (against Philly, of course) was a game tier in the 2nd, so that's a pretty big goal. But...

 

I'm going to say no.

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Mats is the all time leader of the Leafs franchise with 79 game winning goals. He also holds the all time record for single season game winning goals with 10.....so there is that.....

 

When I think overrated, I instantly think Sundin.   (although having watched this thread, I may actually instantly think Ovechkin instead).

 

Maybe it's just a matter of differing definitions.  Even then, maybe I'm not measuring fairly.   But when I'm measuring overrated, I'm thinking results vs. hype.  When Sundin played, all I heard from TSN, ESPN, and Leafs fans was "Sundin Sundin Sundin."   He was the second coming of Christ.  

 

So, reality verses above perception:  overrated.    Good player.  Better than average.  But overrated.

 

Oddly, Darryl Sitler played on even worse teams.  I wouldn't call him overrated.  It's possible, though, that it was the 70s and the exposure to hockey that wasn't in Philly was much less so my opinion on him isn't influenced by all the "rah rah."  (The accolades and rah rah could possibly be influencing my "overrated" opinion on Ovechkin, as well).

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@ruxpin  At least Sittler had Lanny McDonald, Mats had Mogilny for a cup of coffee, Anderchuck for a while, a washed up Gartner, but nothing like Lanny in his prime. It is rather odd to be defending him in here, cause I grew up just literally hating the guy....but as time wore on, I gained more and more respect for him. 7th all time in game winning goals, that speaks volumes to me, factoring in the lack of talent around him and facing every elite checker his opponents had....bottom line, when the game was on the line, Mats was VERY hard to stop.

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Mats is the all time leader of the Leafs franchise with 79 game winning goals. He also holds the all time record for single season game winning goals with 10.....so there is that.....

 

There is "that". In fact, he had 96 GWG in his caeer. 7th all time.

 

Just behind Guy Lafleur and in front of Steve Yzerman.

 

I'd rather have either of them than Sundin 11 days out of 10.  In fact, I'd take just about anybody in the top 20 of that list before Sundin.

 

Some of it is that I'm just not very impressed with the GWG stat. Ovechkin has 76 game winners in 734 career games, for example.

 

And some of it is that the Caps with OV have gone about as far the Leafs ever did with Sundin.

 

bottom line, when the game was on the line, Mats was VERY hard to stop.

 

That silence you're hearing is all the Leafs fans coming to Sundin's defence. :D

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I said it earlier, but I go back and forth on both Toews and Kane. Neither of their numbers are blow your mind away impressive. They're not bad, just not "ball-slobbering" as you put it. But they are responsible for the organization's return from the dead and their only championships in the modern era. There's some intangibles going on there for that to happen and everything you read about Toews implies he's a good leader. Without having watched much of Chicago, my guess is they are both good (but not great, like you said) and are just on the right team. If they didn't have each other or were made the focal point of a team, they arguably wouldn't have that success.

 

I don't need it. Anyone who would freak out over those statements is someone who lacks an objective opinion and should be dismissed (after maybe laughing at them first).

 

Good points about the turnaround in Chicago though Keith, Seabrook, Hossa and Quenneville had a lot to do with that as well. It's just my opinion that some fans overvalue the importance of these leadership qualities and the impact they actually have (see my Dustin Brown example) and in the specific case of Toews v. Crosby, make Toews out to be some kind Patton-esque captain who rallied the ramshackle Blackhawks to their two Cups...all to justify taking Toews ahead of Crosby if one were starting a team right now.  

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Some of it is that I'm just not very impressed with the GWG stat.

 

Just as an aside, I'm not either.  That's because I don't like the way the NHL awards the "game winning goal."

 

The Flyers are playing the Penguins.  It's in Pittsburgh, so the Flyers win this one.

 

The score is 1-1 midway through the second period when the Flyers go on to score four consecutive goals (don't forget this IS fictional).

2-1   Voracek

3-1   Simmonds 

4-1   Read ("fantasy" type fiction)

5-1   Giroux

 

Sometime toward the end of the game, Letang scores on a PP goal following a brain-dead penalty by Rinaldo. Followed by another power play goal by Malkin (it was a double minor because Rinaldo is doubly brain-dead).

 

The score ends 5-3.

 

The way they currently do it, the GWG goes to Read, who scored his goal when it was just kind of pile on.

I believe in baseball the game winning goal (run) would go to Voracek because he scored the go-ahead after which the lead was never relinquished.  I'd be a little more impressed with game winning goals measured this way because I'd know it was a total of goals scored while the game was close and could have gone either way.

 

In the example above, had the Penguins scored one more to make it 5-4 Giroux would have the deciding goal, but it was still pile on when he scored it and I'd still prefer Voracek to get the GWG there.

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He did put up respectable numbers, i dont think anyone is denying that. But the fact that he made the HHOF and that people claim he is in the top 3 among swedish players makes him overrated. i mean he doesnt have a single award in the NHL and was rarely amongst the top 10. Although, there are more overrated players

 

The HHOF is not the "NHL Hall of Fame". International play counts, and I'm sure that was a factor in Sundin's getting in. And his NHL career wasn't exactly shabby either- 27th all time in points, 22nd all time in goals.

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 Sundin did about as much as he could have with the cast of crap he had to play with.

 

Just a few here: Doug Gilmour scored 450 career goals, with 1414 points in 1474 career games; Dave Andreychuk scored fifty the year before Sundin arrived; Alexander Mogilny was more than a PPG player in 990 games (1032 points).

 

You know what those three have in common? Cup wins.

 

At the turn of the century, the Leafs were in 2nd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd in their division leading up to the lockout, including two Conference Finals. You don't do that with a "cast of crap" no matter who you are.

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Good points about the turnaround in Chicago though Keith, Seabrook, Hossa and Quenneville had a lot to do with that as well. It's just my opinion that some fans overvalue the importance of these leadership qualities and the impact they actually have (see my Dustin Brown example) and in the specific case of Toews v. Crosby, make Toews out to be some kind Patton-esque captain who rallied the ramshackle Blackhawks to their two Cups...all to justify taking Toews ahead of Crosby if one were starting a team right now.  

 

Dustin Brown, lol. What happened to that guy? I think leadership is a very important trait, and can make up for other things (points for example), but I agree people are quick to give it to certain players. Toews I am legitimately torn on whether he's good or great.

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