Greatest Goalie Of All Time

[ruxpin]

@JagerMeister

 

Out of curiosity, who'd you vote for?  

[JagerMeister]

Not a bum, but I am beginning to wonder if you don't have a stained Fatheadz Hasek poster hanging conspicuously above your bed.

and im beginning to wonder despite the individual awards, and basically any stat that is not team oriented, Hasek beats brodeur is basically every category...peak, prime, consistency and Hasek even played until an older age...You still pick Brodeur....because stanley cups?....

You can be a crappy 4th liner and win 7 cups playing on a great team, but you cant be a shitty player and win the hart or pearson....has anything I have said for Hasek> brodeur make sense to you...?

Do you abduct illegal european immigrants....?

[ruxpin]

Do you abduct illegal european immigrants....

 

Only the children.

[JagerMeister]

@JagerMeister

Out of curiosity, who'd you vote for?

ilya bryzgalov obviously

[ruxpin]

You can be a crappy 4th liner and win 7 cups

 

We're not talking about a crappy 4th liner though. We're talking about the sole -- yes, I mean sole -- reason the Devils have three rings.   Yeah, for me that trumps Hasek.

 

All time and in their prime and I have my mortgage on the game

1) Brodeur

2) Dryden

3) Parent

4) Roy

5) Hasek -- the Wings' team won with Vernon and Osgood.  They could have won with Joe the Plumber.  

 

Hasek was a great goalie (I never liked him).  The Sabres certainly didn't lose to the Stars because of Hasek.  They had a very good team that didn't show up offensively in the finals and Hasek nearly stole it.   But one game, one series, I'm picking the other four ahead of him.

[ruxpin]

ilya bryzgalov obviously

 

 

LMAO.  Good call.  He's a #warrior.

[JagerMeister]

We're not talking about a crappy 4th liner though. We're talking about the sole -- yes, I mean sole -- reason the Devils have three rings. Yeah, for me that trumps Hasek.

All time and in their prime and I have my mortgage on the game

1) Brodeur

2) Dryden

3) Parent

4) Roy

5) Hasek -- the Wings' team won with Vernon and Osgood. They could have won with Joe the Plumber.

Hasek was a great goalie (I never liked him). The Sabres certainly didn't lose to the Stars because of Hasek. They had a very good team that didn't show up offensively in the finals and Hasek nearly stole it. But one game, one series, I'm picking the other four ahead of him.

yeah I know Brodeur isnt some average goalie...lol (not sure if I have heard any one say that besides couple of articles) but my point is that it is harder for someone to win a Hart or Pearson than it is a stanley cup. You have to be one of the best players and win one of those 2. Tanner Glass could have won 10 stanley cups playing on those Habs teams. And it has been proven that not one player can carry a terrible team to win the stanley cup( Hasek despite his talent couldn't win them a stanley cup until he became mediocre on those Detroit teams...and your telling me Brodeur was the sole reason for the stanley cup wins?). Brodeur is not the sole reason they won three cups. When players went to the opposing side of the ice. They were scared of Stevens ending their careers. Elias was also a very clutch player in the playoffs, niedermayer was a top ten defenseman. Bobby holik and d aneyko were no scrub either. So besides an injured pat lafontaine and Owen Nolan...did Buffalo have anyone of elias, stevens, niedermayer caliber? ( maybe alexander mogilny, I think he left early though)

And why are you ignoring the individual awards and the stats. I mean come on...do you really believe a 6 time vezina winner and the only goaltender that has 2 hearts and pearsons..

[Claude Monet]

If Hasek is sooooo good, why couldn't he save the goal from Johnny L that went in outside the post b/c the net broke during the playoffs?

Ninja(my first ever)

[jammer2]

  I do think Dryden is the greatest of all time, BUT...if I had to choose 1 goalie to start Game #7 of the Stanley Cup finals....assuming he was in his prime, at his very best...I would take Parent.

[ruxpin]

And why are you ignoring the individual awards and the stats. I mean come on...do you really believe a 6 time vezina winner and the only goaltender that has 2 hearts and pearsons

 

I'm not ignoring the individual awards/stats.  For me, the stats are comparable but the trumping factor for me is the Cups.   I'm also not sure the individual awards are "hardrer" than winning a Cup.

 

Ask the Leafs, Flyers, Sabres, and Blues how hard it is to win a Cup.   Sharks?

 

Not ignoring.  But when money is on the line, I'm looking elsewhere.

[JagerMeister]

I'm not ignoring the individual awards/stats.  For me, the stats are comparable but the trumping factor for me is the Cups.   I'm also not sure the individual awards are "hardrer" than winning a Cup.

 

Ask the Leafs, Flyers, Sabres, and Blues how hard it is to win a Cup.   Sharks?

 

Not ignoring.  But when money is on the line, I'm looking elsewhere.

ok, harder was not the right word, but you have a better chance winning the stanley cup compared to being the most valuable player in the world, i mean it makes sense. More people have won the stanley cup than the MVP

 

But it does not make sense to use team awards to compare which of the two individuals was the better player. Its like saying Jonathan Toews>Sidney Crosby ( ik that its much closer between Brodeur and Hasek)

[ScottM]

  I do think Dryden is the greatest of all time, BUT...if I had to choose 1 goalie to start Game #7 of the Stanley Cup finals....assuming he was in his prime, at his very best...I would take Parent.

 

I don't know. I think I'd be tempted to take the guy that won the Conn Smythe before he won the Calder. Lol

[jammer2]

I don't know. I think I'd be tempted to take the guy that won the Conn Smythe before he won the Calder. Lol

 

 Overall, I would have a tendancy to agree with you....BUT....my quote was really a nod to Parent during those back to backs....I've never seen a goalie perform like that, it was nothing short of incredible. Problem was, Bernie could not do that consistently or for a long period of time....but if you are talking just that one specific time frame, Bernie was "the man".

[ruxpin]

you have a better chance winning the stanley cup compared to being the most valuable player in the world,

 

Okay, yeah, better phrased.  And the math supports that, I think. (no sarcasm).

Each year 1/30 win the Cup.   1/60+ win the Vezina.

And what is it for MVP?  1/600+?

 

By the way, if it's money time, I'm going with Toews over Crosby every time.  That's not intended as a slight on Crosby, but one has a tendency to disappear when the going gets rough, and his name isn't Toews.

[JagerMeister]

Okay, yeah, better phrased. And the math supports that, I think. (no sarcasm).

Each year 1/30 win the Cup. 1/60+ win the Vezina.

And what is it for MVP? 1/600+?

By the way, if it's money time, I'm going with Toews over Crosby every time. That's not intended as a slight on Crosby, but one has a tendency to disappear when the going gets rough, and his name isn't Toews.

hey, we agree in something for once (regarding better chance of winning cup than mvp) Im not sure on the second part ruxpin, last year was Crosbys worst playoff year as far as im concerned and he still has the best ppg in the playoffs of all active players. Oh and btw, did you think Hasek disappeared when the going gets tough.....

[ruxpin]

hey, we agree in something for once (regarding better chance of winning cup than mvp) Im not sure on the second part ruxpin, last year was Crosbys worst playoff year as far as im concerned and he still has the best ppg in the playoffs of all active players. Oh and btw, did you think Hasek disappeared when the going gets tough.....

 

Hasek question:  No.  They (the Sabres) certainly didn't lose the Cup finals because of him, anyway.  They lost despite him.   I mean, they had a decent team that year and really disappeared in the Finals and let Hasek play the Stars by himself, as far as I'm concerned.  

 

And the strong teams he played with in Detroit, he did his job.  I mean, they were really good, but if the goalie disappears they may not be able to overcome that (see Flyers, Philadelphia, 2010).

 

I'm not denying the guy was a great goalie.  I was not a fan, but it would take significantly long periods of oxygen deprivation to deny that (it's only been three hours!).   But great vs. great, eh, I take Brodeur.

 

At least I'm not arguing for Roy, right? 

[JagerMeister]

Hasek question: No. They (the Sabres) certainly didn't lose the Cup finals because of him, anyway. They lost despite him. I mean, they had a decent team that year and really disappeared in the Finals and let Hasek play the Stars by himself, as far as I'm concerned.

And the strong teams he played with in Detroit, he did his job. I mean, they were really good, but if the goalie disappears they may not be able to overcome that (see Flyers, Philadelphia, 2010).

I'm not denying the guy was a great goalie. I was not a fan, but it would take significantly long periods of oxygen deprivation to deny that (it's only been three hours!). But great vs. great, eh, I take Brodeur.

At least I'm not arguing for Roy, right?

Well, one is an egotistical maniac and the other cheats on his wife's brother's sister......

So thery both seem like assholes..does really matter tonme which one you argue for..

And if there is one player that has a really good argument against Hasek ( for peak)its Roy...the guy is arguably the best playoff performer of all time.

Why dont you like Hasek?

And out of the two, Brodeur seems like the nicer guy.

[ruxpin]

last year was Crosbys worst playoff year as far as im concerned and he still has the best ppg in the playoffs of all active players

 

Eh, there's been a couple years, especially against Philly but also against the Isles, for example, that he just didn't get it done.

 

I think herein lies another individual thing vs. team thing.   I probably wouldn't make this argument for a random player--even a very good one--but for a captain and a goalie (very pivotal, high-profile positions) the PPG or the SV% or whatever doesn't impress me as much as "did he get his team to win."

 

Oddly, I think Marcel Dionne was a great player.  I think he deserves the hall.  Obviously, he never won anything.  But in his case--and for many seasons this argument is valid for Hasek--he had nothing around him.    But as great as Dionne was, if someone were to ask me "who do you want to go into the money round with" Dionne doesn't immediately spring to mind.

 

I know personal accomplishments are important.  They tend to be meaningful when it comes to getting the bills paid (contracts, etc.).  But for me, to go down as "all-time GREAT" at some point results in terms of "did he WIN" becomes the determining factor.  For me.  

[JagerMeister]

Eh, there's been a couple years, especially against Philly but also against the Isles, for example, that he just didn't get it done.

I think herein lies another individual thing vs. team thing. I probably wouldn't make this argument for a random player--even a very good one--but for a captain and a goalie (very pivotal, high-profile positions) the PPG or the SV% or whatever doesn't impress me as much as "did he get his team to win."

Oddly, I think Marcel Dionne was a great player. I think he deserves the hall. Obviously, he never won anything. But in his case--and for many seasons this argument is valid for Hasek--he had nothing around him. But as great as Dionne was, if someone were to ask me "who do you want to go into the money round with" Dionne doesn't immediately spring to mind.

I know personal accomplishments are important. They tend to be meaningful when it comes to getting the bills paid (contracts, etc.). But for me, to go down as "all-time GREAT" at some point results in terms of "did he WIN" becomes the determining factor. For me.

yeah that makes sense. But you also have to take into account how much better B rodeurs teams where. Its notbecause Hasek was not good enough to win the stanley cup. Its because the rest of the team was not. Its not fair to punish Hasek for not winning a cup until he became an average goaltender on a great team. Brodeur stopped winning cups when Stevens and niedermayer left ( correct me if im wrong on this one) . If you put Hasek on those Devils teams they win the same amount of cups imo. I dont think Brodeur would win anything on this sabres teams just like Hasek didnt win anything.

And regarding Marcel dionne, do you think teemu selanne was better? They were both regular season players that didnt do as well in the playoffs but teemu has a cup. So teemu selanne over marcel dionne? I make this comparison because regarding playoffs. Both Hasek and brodeur where great. Just that one won the cup more than the other.

[jammer2]

hey, we agree in something for once (regarding better chance of winning cup than mvp) Im not sure on the second part ruxpin, last year was Crosbys worst playoff year as far as im concerned and he still has the best ppg in the playoffs of all active players.

 

 

 Yes Sid indeed does have the best stats for ppg in the playoffs among active players....the one really odd thing about that stat is the #3 player on the all time list. He only played 34 playoff games, so not a huge number of games to go off of, but who would have ever guessed that Barry Pederson is #3 on that lofty list.  He averaged over 1.5 pts per game in that regard. Only Mario and Wayne averaged more, which is amazing. Pederson was only a slightly better than average player iMHO....so for him to pick it up in the playoffs like that....kudos to him!!

 

 http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-playoff-points-per-game-leaders.html

[JagerMeister]

 Yes Sid indeed does have the best stats for ppg in the playoffs among active players....the one really odd thing about that stat is the #3 player on the all time list. He only played 34 playoff games, so not a huge number of games to go off of, but who would have ever guessed that Barry Pederson is #3 on that lofty list.  He averaged over 1.5 pts per game in that regard. Only Mario and Wayne averaged more, which is amazing. Pederson was only a slightly better than average player iMHO....so for him to pick it up in the playoffs like that....kudos to him!!

 

 http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-playoff-points-per-game-leaders.html

Honestly, IMO. It is easier for some players to become better in the playoffs because the playoffs have a smaller sample size of games, so any player can literally go on a hot streak and an average player like Justin Williams can win a Conn Smythe.

[flyercanuck]

ok, harder was not the right word, but you have a better chance winning the stanley cup compared to being the most valuable player in the world, i mean it makes sense. More people have won the stanley cup than the MVP

 

But it does not make sense to use team awards to compare which of the two individuals was the better player. Its like saying Jonathan Toews>Sidney Crosby ( ik that its much closer between Brodeur and Hasek)

 

Jose Theodore won a hart Trophy as league MVP.

 

Gilbert Perreault never won a cup. Neither did Marcel Dionne. Peter Stastny. Adam Oates. Darryl Sittler. All better players than Theodore.

[JagerMeister]

Jose Theodore won a hart Trophy as league MVP.

 

Gilbert Perreault never won a cup. Neither did Marcel Dionne. Peter Stastny. Adam Oates. Darryl Sittler. All better players than Theodore.

But Marcel Dionne, Gilbert Perrault and Peter Stastny were always second fiddle to greater players so they were never considered the best players in the world. Jose Theodore had one phenomenal year and even then it was controversial whether he deserved it or Iginla.

 

Every year ONE person wins the MVP and every year atleast 20 plus players win the stanley cup.

[rickmac19]

Thought about this a while ago. Would pick Hasek. Who would I want in a Final series? I think I would pick Roy. Today? Quick, no questions asked. Guys I would have super confidence in starting the playoffs: Fuhr (unnoticed, but hair-on-fire offense left him high and dry often, and he bailed those Oilers out so many times) Cujo--when he was right, almost unbeatable, saw a lot of Parent and said, "How the hello! did he stop that?" Lindbergh probably had the sickest skill set I have ever seen, but Fuhr was an insane athlete as well. Couldn't go wrong with Brodeur or Dryden, but they couldn't go wrong with Stevens and Robinson in front of them, either.  

[flyercanuck]

But Marcel Dionne, Gilbert Perrault and Peter Stastny were always second fiddle to greater players so they were never considered the best players in the world. Jose Theodore had one phenomenal year and even then it was controversial whether he deserved it or Iginla.

 

Every year ONE person wins the MVP and every year atleast 20 plus players win the stanley cup.

 

 

Just pointing out its possible for a not-so-great player to fluke off an MVP.