If Lemieux Was Healthy, Do You Think He Would Have Threatened Gretzky's Records?

[JagerMeister]

If Lemieux was healthy, would he have threatened Gretzky's records?

If you think he would have, which ones?

 

IMO, no. Call me crazy, but i think Gretzky was a better goal scorer than Lemieux....let me explain

 

In 718 games, Gretzky had 600 goals

 

Now lets compare that to Lemieux in his first retirement.

 

In 745 games, Lemieux had 613 goals

 

So Lemieux had 13 more goals in 27 more games....pretty close.

 

But Gretzky had a higher single season GPG than Lemieux

 

lemieux had 1.15 to Gretzkys 1.18.

 

But i have to admit, its pretty close with these 2 when it comes to goal scoring

Overall offense however...not so much

 

People that think Lemieux would have beat Gretzkys point records are simply wrong...

 

Gretzky

Points 
1978-79 WHA 110 (3)
1979-80 NHL 137 (1)
1980-81 NHL 164 (1)
1981-82 NHL 212 (1)
1982-83 NHL 196 (1)
1983-84 NHL 205 (1)
1984-85 NHL 208 (1)
1985-86 NHL 215 (1)
1986-87 NHL 183 (1)
1987-88 NHL 149 (2)
1988-89 NHL 168 (2)
1989-90 NHL 142 (1)
1990-91 NHL 163 (1)
1991-92 NHL 121 (3)
1993-94 NHL 130 (1)
1996-97 NHL 97 (4)
1997-98 NHL 90 (3)
Career NHL 2857 (1)

 

Lemieux

Points Per Game 

1984-85 NHL 1.37 (9)
1985-86 NHL 1.78 (2)
1986-87 NHL 1.70 (2)
1987-88 NHL 2.18 (2)
1988-89 NHL 2.62 (1)
1989-90 NHL 2.08 (1)
1991-92 NHL 2.05 (1)
1992-93 NHL 2.67 (1)
1995-96 NHL 2.30 (1)
1996-97 NHL 1.61 (1)
2000-01 NHL 1.77 (1)
2002-03 NHL 1.36 (2)
Career NHL 1.88 (2)

 

Gretzky led the league in ppg 11 times to Lemieuxs 9

 

Further evidence of this is when Lemieux first retired, he had 1494 points in 745 games, since people like to bring up the fact that he was the only player to retire at or above a 2.00 ppg

But if Gretzky retired in 711 games, he would have 1700 points... thats a ppg of 2.39... 

Gretzky had 204 more points in 34 less games... I think it is pretty clear Lemieux would not have beaten Gretzkys point records.

Gretzky is still the better overall offensive producer.

 

[JR Ewing]

If

 

When the crux of your argument starts with "if", you haven't started off on the best footing, and the whole thing comes down more to the skills of the arguer than the objective qualifications of the player. Mario Lemieux was a great player who spent a lot of time hurt of sick, and it impacted his career, and I'm good with leaving it at that, instead of projecting.

 

What if Gary Suter didn't injure Gretzky's back?

 

Just about every player has an "if" argument that you can make.

[JagerMeister]

If

 

When the crux of your argument starts with "if", you haven't started off on the best footing, and the whole thing comes down more to the skills of the arguer than the objective qualifications of the player. Mario Lemieux was a great player who spent a lot of time hurt of sick, and it impacted his career, and I'm good with leaving it at that, instead of projecting.

 

What if Gary Suter didn't injure Gretzky's back?

 

Just about every player has an "if" argument that you can make.

This is true, but if there is some evidence to some of the ``projecting`` people make about other players. Then its all fine and dandy to me, this is just for fun. But the thing is, there really is no valid argument (that i have seen so far) when people think Lemieux would have broken most of Gretzkys records.

[ScottM]

No. I don't think Lemieux would have racked up the numbers that Gretzky did. Look at all of those 200 point seasons Gretzky had. There are four of them, On top of that, he had 196 and 183 point seasons. Lemiuex's biggest season was "only" 199 points. Behind that, he never even reached 170 again. Look at the number of 50, 60, 70, 80, and even 90 goal seasons for Gretzky. Lemieux pales there too. In one sense, as @JR Ewing mentioned with Gretzky's back injury, you could argue that Gretzky's career was "shortened." The truly impressive thing about it is that even after that, very late in his career, in the 1996-97 and 1997-98, The Great One led the league in assists.

 

Another guy whose name you could throw out on these "ifs" is Mike Bossy. He wouldn't have come anywhere near the assist and point records of Gretzky, but there's no telling how many goals he might have amassed.

[JagerMeister]

No. I don't think Lemieux would have racked up the numbers that Gretzky did. Look at all of those 200 point seasons Gretzky had. There are four of them, On top of that, he had 196 and 183 point seasons. Lemiuex's biggest season was "only" 199 points. Behind that, he never even reached 170 again. Look at the number of 50, 60, 70, 80, and even 90 goal seasons for Gretzky. Lemieux pales there too. In one sense, as @JR Ewing mentioned with Gretzky's back injury, you could argue that Gretzky's career was "shortened." The truly impressive thing about it is that even after that, very late in his career, in the 1996-97 and 1997-98, The Great One led the league in assists.

 

Another guy whose name you could throw out on these "ifs" is Mike Bossy. He wouldn't have come anywhere near the assist and point records of Gretzky, but there's no telling how many goals he might have amassed.

Call me crazy, but i think Ovechkin is the equivalent of Bossy today. ( they play very differently, but stats wise)

 

And yeah, i agree with what you said.

 

but the reason Mike Bossys gpg is so high is because he never had the chance to actually decline as a player...he never played out of his prime.

[ScottM]

but the reason Mike Bossys gpg is so high is because he never had the chance to actually decline as a player...he never played out of his prime.

 

Interesting fact about that: Bossy's gpg was 0.76 in nine seasons. If you look at Gretzky through nine seasons, his was 0.82. Very similar. Interestingly enough, Lemieux was at 0.83 for his first nine.

[Polaris922]

I think Lemieux had a chance. Bear in mind that was over 2 PPG WITH all those problems. Take those health issues away and you don't think it reasonable he scores one more point every other game? I do. He was of similar skill as Gretzky without the protection but with amazing size and speed. The only player to have more goals per game was Bossy.

We'll never know, but I think he had a 50/50 chance. He missed more than 1/3 of the games his team played during his career. That's a ridiculous statistic.

[NRH]

In a word no, Gretzky saw things Lemieux simply didn't, made plays that were simply impossible for a normal human to make.

 

With the current rules in place Lemieux would have hit a lot closer to Gretzky's numbers but with todays goalies I don't think the old numbers will ever be close to being achieved by any current players.

[JagerMeister]

Edit: I was suppose to show the gretzky ppg chart not the points

If Lemieux was healthy, would he have threatened Gretzky's records?

If you think he would have, which ones?

IMO, no. Call me crazy, but i think Gretzky was a better goal scorer than Lemieux....let me explain

In 718 games, Gretzky had 600 goals

Now lets compare that to Lemieux in his first retirement.

In 745 games, Lemieux had 613 goals

So Lemieux had 13 more goals in 27 more games....pretty close.

But Gretzky had a higher single season GPG than Lemieux

lemieux had 1.15 to Gretzkys 1.18.

But i have to admit, its pretty close with these 2 when it comes to goal scoring

Overall offense however...not so much

People that think Lemieux would have beat Gretzkys point records are simply wrong...

Gretzky

Points

1978-79 WHA

110 (3)

1979-80 NHL 137 (1)

1980-81 NHL 164 (1)

1981-82 NHL 212 (1)

1982-83 NHL 196 (1)

1983-84 NHL 205 (1)

1984-85 NHL 208 (1)

1985-86 NHL 215 (1)

1986-87 NHL 183 (1)

1987-88 NHL

149 (2)

1988-89 NHL

168 (2)

1989-90 NHL 142 (1)

1990-91 NHL 163 (1)

1991-92 NHL

121 (3)

1993-94 NHL 130 (1)

1996-97 NHL

97 (4)

1997-98 NHL

90 (3)

Career NHL 2857 (1)

Lemieux

Points Per Game

1984-85 NHL

1.37 (9)

1985-86 NHL

1.78 (2)

1986-87 NHL

1.70 (2)

1987-88 NHL

2.18 (2)

1988-89 NHL 2.62 (1)

1989-90 NHL 2.08 (1)

1991-92 NHL 2.05 (1)

1992-93 NHL 2.67 (1)

1995-96 NHL 2.30 (1)

1996-97 NHL 1.61 (1)

2000-01 NHL 1.77 (1)

2002-03 NHL

1.36 (2)

Career NHL

1.88 (2)

Gretzky led the league in ppg 11 times to Lemieuxs 9

Further evidence of this is when Lemieux first retired, he had 1494 points in 745 games, since people like to bring up the fact that he was the only player to retire at or above a 2.00 ppg

But if Gretzky retired in 711 games, he would have 1700 points... thats a ppg of 2.39...

Gretzky had 204 more points in 34 less games... I think it is pretty clear Lemieux would not have beaten Gretzkys point records.

Gretzky is still the better overall offensive producer.

[jammer2]

In a word no, Gretzky saw things Lemieux simply didn't, made plays that were simply impossible for a normal human to make.

 

 I don't agree with that at all. Mario had mindblowing vision, just like Wayne. I don't think Wayne had a leg up on Mario in that department. Mario knew exactly what was going to happen seconds before it did....just like Gretzky.

[jammer2]

Take those health issues away and you don't think it reasonable he scores one more point every other game?

 

  That is a very reasonable conclusion to draw. Mario played with *so* many injuries through his career. His back was bad enough to call it cronic....and he did play a season (or was it 2?) with the cancer. Mario missed 479 games with injury through his career, but still managed to score over 700 goals.

 

 Another thing I'll throw into the argument. Wayne's Oilers were pretty well stacked, even in the early going. Mario's Pens were pretty crappy over the first 5 years of his career, which obviously can affect stats.

 

 One more thing, Mario was not protected by the NHL like Wayne was. He took WAY more punishment during his career. Mario didn't get a lot of calls because of size and the thought that he was big enough to protect himself. The abuse that Mario took was borderline criminal.

[ScottM]

  That is a very reasonable conclusion to draw. Mario played with *so* many injuries through his career. His back was bad enough to call it cronic....and he did play a season (or was it 2?) with the cancer. Mario missed 479 games with injury through his career, but still managed to score over 700 goals.

 

Not to nitpick, but Lemieux had 690 career goals. 

[JagerMeister]

I don't agree with that at all. Mario had mindblowing vision, just like Wayne. I don't think Wayne had a leg up on Mario in that department. Mario knew exactly what was going to happen seconds before it did....just like Gretzky.

The way I see it. Gretzky had better hockey IQ while the other was more physically gifted. There is a reason why Gretzky holds almost every single assists record.

[jammer2]

The way I see it. Gretzky had better hockey IQ while the other was more physically gifted. There is a reason why Gretzky holds almost every single assists record.

 

 

 I just don't see it that way. Mario had the same feel and vision for anticipating that Wayne did. They were both freaky elite in that regard. In fact, because Mario had a better reach and smoother stride, he actually controlled the flow of the game better than Wayne did, which is something that directly leads into vision and hockey IQ.

[ScottM]

 I just don't see it that way. Mario had the same feel and vision for anticipating that Wayne did. They were both freaky elite in that regard. In fact, because Mario had a better reach and smoother stride, he actually controlled the flow of the game better than Wayne did, which is something that directly leads into vision and hockey IQ.

 

I agree that it's very hard to set one ahead of the other as far as vision. I feel pretty comfortable in saying that the only guy ahead of them in that respect is Bobby Orr. When you put those three guys together, I don't even know if "elite" is strong enough of a word. We might have to make one up.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Wading gently into this classic debate........ 

 

I look at Gretzky and Lemieux as being 1A and 1B in terms of the two most offensively gifted forwards to ever play the game. I think they were at the same level, and the differences in their career numbers have more to do with the teams they played on (Penguins were good but not like the Oilers dynasty) and the era they played in than on their ability.

 

Gretzky played his prime years during the highest scoring era in NHL history.

Lemieux's prime started several years after that, when scoring was already in decline.

 

 

[Polaris922]

The way I see it. Gretzky had better hockey IQ while the other was more physically gifted. There is a reason why Gretzky holds almost every single assists record.

Gretzky actually feels Lemieux had a "supernatural" feel for the game that he "envied". Maybe just being humble but high praise from on high.

To me Gretzky's greatest assets were his speed and hands. More so than any other. He was just such a great stick handler.

[JagerMeister]

Gretzky actually feels Lemieux had a "supernatural" feel for the game that he "envied". Maybe just being humble but high praise from on high.

To me Gretzky's greatest assets were his speed and hands. More so than any other. He was just such a great stick handler.

Gretzky called Nilsson the most talented player he ever saw, he also said Kovalev was one of the most complete players he ever saw....

 

When Gretzky compliments a player...i dont take any of it seriously.... His humbleness just gets too ridiculous at times.

[Polaris922]

Gretzky called Nilsson the most talented player he ever saw, he also said Kovalev was one of the most complete players he ever saw....

When Gretzky compliments a player...i dont take any of it seriously.... His humbleness just gets too ridiculous at times.

If that were the case if have pointed out that Gretzky also named Lemieux the greatest to ever play the game. I took that as being humble. Lol

[JagerMeister]

If that were the case if have pointed out that Gretzky also named Lemieux the greatest to ever play the game. I took that as being humble. Lol

He also said the same thing about Howe...

[Polaris922]

He also said the same thing about Howe...

I'm sure his integrity leaves him no choice to answer numerous ways with all of the questions he must get. However, when he comments about an individual player's specific skills, I listen more closely, hence my only using that reference and not the greatest comment until you commented. Lol

[WordsOfWisdom]

Gretzky called Nilsson the most talented player he ever saw, he also said Kovalev was one of the most complete players he ever saw....

 

When Gretzky compliments a player...i dont take any of it seriously.... His humbleness just gets too ridiculous at times.

 

Gretzky said Phil Kessel was the greatest player of all time. 

[flyercanuck]

Gretzky said Phil Kessel was the greatest player of all time. 

 

Don't forget Dougie...the greatest of them all....oh and Wendel.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Gretzky said Gary Bettman is the greatest NHL commissioner of all time. 

[peter puck]

@flyercanuck

He also said Dan Carcillo was going to be a thirty goal scorer.