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Bobby Orr

Can you imagine the stats of Bobby Orr with eighteen playing years? Let's wonder together... We're going to assume 82 games for each season. (Wayne Gretzky was the only one of this group who got to play that many in one professional season.) And plug in averages based off that for smaller seasons during his first nine in Boston. So that would be 

1966-67: 17 goals & 38 assists (55 points)
1967-68: 19 goals & 36 assists (55 points) 
1968-69: 26 goals & 52 assists (78 points) 
1969-70: 36 goals & 94 assists (130 points)
1970-71: 39 goals & 108 assists (147 points) 
1971-72: 40 goals & 86 assists (126 points) 
1972-73: 38 goals & 93 assists (131 points)
1973-74: 36 goals & 99 assists (135 points) 
1974-75: 47 goals & 93 assists (140 points) 

With nine seasons to go we'll take the numbers from his top three years to fill in the first third. The second-best three-year collection for the next third. And the third-best three-year group for the final third. So that's 

122 goals & 298 assists (420 points) +
114 goals & 274 assists (388 points) +
63 goals & 126 assists (189 points) =ing
another 997 points.

Add that to his 997 points from a more perfect Boston era and we get these new career totals for Bobby Orr...

Goals: 597. Assists: 1,397. Points: 1,994. PPG: 1.35. 

 

Let's remember that we're talking about a defenseman. A defenseman! One hell of a defensive defenseman too. One who also changed hockey forever with his unprecedented offensive explosiveness from that position. Too bad about him not having two good knees.  

 

What about other factors that could have boosted his totals more...? 

 

Even though some people claim +/- = an overrated or lesser stat, and I have agreed with them to some degree, I want to say something about it regarding Bobby Orr. As an attacking defender he achieved +589 in only ten years. Throughout a game he was continually the leader on both offense and defense. No defenders (legendary or otherwise) who succeeded him--he remains the standard for them all--have gotten anywhere near that +/- achievement. And in a more just career, Orr's +/- reaches something like +1,578. Larry Robinson (not bad for a second-round draft pick, yeah?) doesn't even come close in +/- at second place. Even if you give him 82 games for each season he played. And he played twenty seasons! So maybe there's even more to Bobby Orr and more to +/- than some people, myself included, have previously realized. 

Now we get to

Gordie Howe 

Let's imagine Mr. Hockey's career numbers with him playing 82 games every season. With no retirement until after his time with the Whalers. [I miss them!] We'll take his yearly averages for every year he did play. And fill in those couple retirement years. 

1946-47: 10 goals & 22 assists (32 points) 
1947-48: 22 goals & 38 assists (60 points)
1948-49: 25 goals & 51 assists (76 points) 
1949-50: 41 goals & 39 assists (80 points) 
1950-51: 50 goals & 50 assists (100 points)
1951-52: 55 goals & 46 assists (101 points) 
1952-53: 57 goals & 54 assists (111 points) 
1953-54: 39 goals & 59 assists (98 points)
1954-55: 36 goals & 41 assists (77 points) 
1955-56: 44 goals & 48 assists (92 points) 
1956-57: 51 goals & 52 assists (103 points) 
1957-58: 42 goals & 56 assists (98 points) 
1958-59: 38 goals & 54 assists (92 points) 
1959-60: 33 goals & 52 assists (85 points) 
1960-61: 30 goals & 63 assists (93 points) 
1961-62: 39 goals & 51 assists (90 points) 
1962-63: 44 goals & 56 assists (100 points) 
1963-64: 31 goals & 55 assists (86 points) 
1964-65: 34 goals & 55 assists (89 points) 
1965-66: 34 goals & 54 assists (88 points)
1966-67: 30 goals & 47 assists (77 points) 
1967-68: 43 goals & 47 assists (90 points) 
1968-69: 47 goals & 64 assists (111 points) 
1969-70: 34 goals & 43 assists (77 points) 
1970-71: 30 goals & 38 assists (68 points) 
1971-72 
and 
1972-73: 64 goals & 116 assists (180 points)
1973-74: 35 goals & 79 assists (114 points)
1974-75: 37 goals & 71 assists (108 points) 
1975-76: 34 goals & 74 assists (108 points) 
1976-77: 32 goals & 58 assists (90 points) 
1977-78: 37 goals & 67 assists (104 points) 
1978-79: 27 goals & 34 assists (61 points) 
1979-80: 15 goals & 27 assists (42 points) 

New career totals... 

Goals: 1,220. Assists: 1,761. Points: 2,981. PPG: 1.04. 

And 2,788 games?! Wow--what a glory hog! : ) Gordie Howe was a juggernaut of consistency, productivity, and longevity. A player who dominated the ice on both sides. Played with power. Skated with grace. Made the game look easy. By the way: he scored the bulk of his points after a serious brain injury. No less than Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr have called him the greatest ever. I've thought that and said that too. 

I will add that it can get weird for me to hear anybody declare anyone the greatest ever in any sport. Given the criteria, conditions, and contexts that one could invoke and that clash within and across eras of any professional athletics. But if you want to call Gordie Howe the greatest hockey player ever, you won't get any argument from me. The same goes for Bobby Orr. I will say that Mario Lemieux has amazed me more than any other hockey player that I grew up watching. That includes Gretzky, Sakic, Jagr, Bourque, Messier, Malone ; )--all kinds of greats. 

No modern player moves me the way Le Magnifique did. But I do still love the game. 

Speaking of 

Mario Lemieux 

Again: imagining 82 games for every season and going with season averages. Filling in missing years. 

1984-85: 48 goals & 64 assists (112 points) 
1985-86: 50 goals & 96 assists (146 points)
1986-87: 71 goals & 69 assists (140 points)
1987-88: 75 goals & 105 assists (180 points)
1988-89: 91 goals & 123 assists (214 points)
1989-90: 63 goals & 109 assists (172 points)
1990-91: 59 goals & 82 assists (141 points)
1991-92: 56 goals & 112 assists (168 points)
1992-93: 94 goals & 124 assists (218 points)
1993-94: 64 goals & 75 assists (139 points)
1994-95: 72 goals & 86 assists (158 points)
1995-96: 81 goals & 108 assists (199 points)
1996-97: 54 goals & 78 assists (132 points)
1997-98
through 
1999-2000: 181 goals & 234 assists (415 points)
2000-01: 67 goals & 78 assists (145 points) 
2001-02: 21 goals & 86 assists (107 points)
2002-03: 34 goals & 77 assists (111 points)
2003-04: 8 goals & 66 assists (74 points) 
2004-05: 15 goals & 56 assists (71 points)
2005-06: 23 goals & 47 assists (70 points)

Holy smokin' barbecues--only three seasons in 22 that he doesn't average at least a point per game; six years with at least two-points-per; six with 100+ assists; sixteen with 50+ goals; and two seasons with 200+ points! 

New career totals... 

Goals: 1,227. Assists: 1,875. Points: 3,102. PPG: 1.72. 

Now imagine his numbers without him having to endure cancer; surgery; incredible back pain; regular shadowing, double-teaming; and all those years of trapping. Gretzky who? 

Oh yeah: this

Wayne Gretzky 

1978-79: 47 goals & 66 assists (113 points)
1979-80: 53 goals & 89 assists (142 points)
1980-81: 56 goals & 112 assists (168 points)
1981-82: 94 goals & 123 assists (217 points)
1982-83: 73 goals & 128 assists (201 points)
1983-84: 96 goals & 131 assists (227 points)
1984-85: 75 goals & 138 assists (213 points)
1985-86: 53 goals & 167 assists (220 points)
1986-87: 64 goals & 126 assists (190 points)
1987-88: 51 goals & 140 assists (191 points)
1988-89: 57 goals & 120 assists (177 points)
1989-90: 45 goals & 115 assists (160 points)
1990-91: 43 goals & 128 assists (171 points)
1991-92: 34 goals & 100 assists (134 points)
1992-93: 29 goals & 89 assists (118 points)
1993-94: 38 goals & 93 assists (131 points)
1994-95: 19 goals & 63 assists (82 points)
1995-96: 24 goals & 81 assists (105 points)
1996-97: 25 goals & 72 assists (97 points)
1997-98: 23 goals & 67 assists (90 points)
1998-99: 11 goals & 62 assists (73 points)

New career totals... 

Goals: 1,010. Assists: 2,144. Points: 3,154. PPG: 1.83.

This dude was a psychotic offensive machine no matter how you slice and dice his career. For six straight years no one got close to his season point totals. Some will contend that his competition wasn't allowed to get physical with him because of some secret or unwritten NHL rule that protected him. Well that clandestine memorandum never made its way to Bryan Trottier or Clark Gillies. I've seen both players knock Gretz on his glutes. The Great One was a great one in part because he consistently kept his head up and could anticipate so well. If you want to try to diminish his accomplishments by saying that he had enforcers on the ice, that's not anything special to Gretzky. Teams protect their stars. Theo Fleurys punk out at level ten when they have Tim Hunters nearby. If you want to claim that Wayne got his ridiculous numbers only because he played in a weak conference while at Edmonton, or because he played in an era of outrageous offense, or because he wasn't facing goalies dressed as Michelin Men striking butterfly poses, please explain why no one else from that conference or that era got near his numbers for a few years. Wanna chalk up his production to double-shifting? Even if he had double-shifted his entire career, and even if that were the sole reason for his insane production, he'd still rank fifteenth all time in points if you divided his stats in half! 

And last but not even close to least:

Maurice Richard 

A player I not only admire for his clutch play and fiery determination. But also an individual I admire because he spoke up: about corruption in high NHL places, about French speakers getting battered just for speaking their mother tongue in Ontario. 

My man Maurice gets 82 games a year and season averages like everybody else. 

1942-43: 26 goals & 31 assists (57 points)
1943-44: 57 goals & 39 assists (96 points)
1944-45: 82 goals & 38 assists (118 points)
[Yo, I'm open! Oh--The Rocket's got the
puck. I guess I'm cool with that.]
1945-46: 44 goals & 34 assists (78 points)
1946-47: 62 goals & 36 assists (98 points)
1947-48: 43 goals & 39 assists (82 points)
1948-49: 28 goals & 25 assists (53 points)
1949-50: 50 goals & 26 assists (76 assists)
1950-51: 53 goals & 30 assists (83 points)
1951-52: 46 goals & 29 assists (75 points)
1952-53: 33 goals & 39 assists (72 points)
1953-54: 43 goals & 35 assists (78 points)
1954-55: 47 goals & 44 assists (91 points)
1955-56: 45 goals & 39 assists (84 points)
1956-57: 43 goals & 38 assists (81 points)
1957-58: 44 goals & 56 assists (100 points)
1958-59: 33 goals & 41 assists (74 points)
1959-60: 31 goals & 26 assists (57 points)

New career totals for Monsieur Richard... 

Goals: 810. Assists: 645. Points: 1,455. PPG: .99.

[sources for all five stallions:
(1) hockey-reference.com 
(2) my wandering focused imagination]

What do you say to no professional hockey player ever again wearing the numbers 99, 66, 4, or 9? I can think of at least two good reasons for #9.

I don't claim that what's been done here regarding these players equals unimpeachable science. Nor do I assert that their recorded numbers are lying. But I do respectfully contend that they don't tell the most compelling or the most complete story. 

What other fun hockey imaginings could we flesh out? How about Mike Bossy scoring goals for, let's say, seventeen years? Or the Philadelphia Flyers with 50+ goal scorer Tim Kerr in the 1987 Stanley Cup Finals? Or Wayne Gretzky has to high-stick someone besides Doug Gilmour and not get called for it because Dougie gets busted for a head butt earlier in that 1993 series? What are some of yours? I wish I could discuss this stuff with my pops. His favorite player's Stevie Y. 

I'd also love to see others do similar calculations or hypothetical interestingness for different NHL legends. (Partially correct translation: he's a liberal-arts guy and his brain's bleeding from all these numbers.) Looking forward to hearing from you!

Cheers.

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Bobby Orr

Can you imagine the stats of Bobby Orr with eighteen playing years? Let's wonder together... 

We're going to assume 82 games for each season. (Wayne Gretzky was the only one of this 
group who got to play that many in one professional season.) And plug in averages based off 
that for smaller seasons during his first nine in Boston. So that would be 

1966-67: 17 goals & 38 assists (55 points)

1967-68: 19 goals & 36 assists (55 points) 

1968-69: 26 goals & 52 assists (78 points) 

1969-70: 36 goals & 94 assists (130 points)

1970-71: 39 goals & 108 assists (147 points) 

1971-72: 40 goals & 86 assists (126 points) 

1972-73: 38 goals & 93 assists (131 points)

1973-74: 36 goals & 99 assists (135 points) 

1974-75: 47 goals & 93 assists (140 points) 

With nine seasons to go we'll take the numbers from his top three years to fill in the first third. 

The second-best three-year collection for the next third. And the third-best three-year group 
for the final third. So that's 

122 goals & 298 assists (420 points) +

114 goals & 274 assists (388 points) +

63 goals & 126 assists (189 points) =ing

another 997 points.

Add that to his 997 points from a more perfect Boston era and we get these new career totals 

for Bobby Orr...

Goals: 597. Assists: 1,397. Points: 1,994. PPG: 1.35. 

Let's remember that we're talking about a defenseman. A defenseman! One hell of a defensive

defenseman too. One who also changed hockey forever with his unprecedented offensive 
explosiveness from that position. How many goals and assists should we add if he's got 
two good knees his whole career?

What about other factors? 

Even though some people claim +/- = an overrated or lesser stat, and I have agreed with them 

to some degree, I want to say something about it regarding Bobby Orr. As an attacking defender 
he achieved +589 in only ten years. Throughout a game he was continually the leader on both 

offense and defense. No legendary defenders who succeeded him--he remains the standard for

them all--got anywhere near his +/- achievement. And in a more just career, Orr's +/- reaches

something like +1,578. Larry Robinson (not bad for a second-round draft pick, yeah?) doesn't

even come close in +/- at second place. Even if you give him 82 games for each season he 

played. And he played twenty seasons! So maybe there's even more to Bobby Orr and more to

+/- than some people, myself included, have previously realized and acknowledged. 

Now we get to

Gordie Howe 

Let's imagine Mr. Hockey's career numbers with him playing 82 games every season. With no

retirement until after his time with the Whalers. [i miss them!] We'll take his yearly averages for 

every year he did play. And fill in those couple retirement years. 

1946-47: 10 goals & 22 assists (32 points) 

1947-48: 22 goals & 38 assists (60 points)

1948-49: 25 goals & 51 assists (76 points) 

1949-50: 41 goals & 39 assists (80 points) 

1950-51: 50 goals & 50 assists (100 points)

1951-52: 55 goals & 46 assists (101 points) 

1952-53: 57 goals & 54 assists (111 points) 

1953-54: 39 goals & 59 assists (98 points)

1954-55: 36 goals & 41 assists (77 points) 

1955-56: 44 goals & 48 assists (92 points) 

1956-57: 51 goals & 52 assists (103 points)  

1957-58: 42 goals & 56 assists (98 points) 

1958-59: 38 goals & 54 assists (92 points) 

1959-60: 33 goals & 52 assists (85 points) 

1960-61: 30 goals & 63 assists (93 points) 

1961-62: 39 goals & 51 assists (90 points) 

1962-63: 44 goals & 56 assists (100 points) 

1963-64: 31 goals & 55 assists (86 points) 

1964-65: 34 goals & 55 assists (89 points) 

1965-66: 34 goals & 54 assists (88 points)

1966-67: 30 goals & 47 assists (77 points) 

1967-68: 43 goals & 47 assists (90 points) 

1968-69: 47 goals & 64 assists (111 points) 

1969-70: 34 goals & 43 assists (77 points) 

1970-71: 30 goals & 38 assists (68 points) 

1971-72 

and 

1972-73: 64 goals & 116 assists (180 points)

1973-74: 35 goals & 79 assists (114 points)

1974-75: 37 goals & 71 assists (108 points) 

1975-76: 34 goals & 74 assists (108 points) 

1976-77: 32 goals & 58 assists (90 points) 

1977-78: 37 goals & 67 assists (104 points) 

1978-79: 27 goals & 34 assists (61 points) 

1979-80: 15 goals & 27 assists (42 points) 

New career totals... 

 
Goals: 1,220. Assists: 1,761. Points: 2,981. PPG: 1.04. 

And 2,788 games?! Wow--what a glory hog! : ) Gordie Howe was a juggernaut of consistency, 

productivity, and longevity. A player who dominated the ice on both sides. Played with power. 
Skated with grace. Made the game look easy. By the way: he scored the bulk of his points after
a serious brain injury. No less than Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr have called him the greatest ever. 
I've thought that and said that too. 

I will add that it can get weird for me to hear anybody declare anyone the greatest ever in any sport.

Given the criteria, conditions, and contexts that one could invoke and that clash within and across 

eras of any professional athletics. But if you want to call Gordie Howe the greatest hockey player ever, 

you won't get any argument from me. The same goes for Bobby Orr. I will say that Mario Lemieux has

amazed me more than any other hockey player that I grew up watching. That includes Gretzky, Sakic,

Jagr, Bourque, Messier--all kinds of greats. 

No modern player moves me the way Le Magnifique did. But I do still love the game. 

Speaking of 

Mario Lemieux  

Again: imagining 82 games for every season and going with season averages. Filling in missing years. 

1984-85: 48 goals & 64 assists (112 points) 

1985-86: 50 goals & 96 assists (146 points)

1986-87: 71 goals & 69 assists (140 points)

1987-88: 75 goals & 105 assists (180 points)

1988-89: 91 goals & 123 assists (214 points)

1989-90: 63 goals & 109 assists (172 points)

1990-91: 59 goals & 82 assists (141 points)

1991-92: 56 goals & 112 assists (168 points)

1992-93: 94 goals & 124 assists (218 points)

1993-94: 64 goals & 75 assists (139 points)

1994-95: 72 goals & 86 assists (158 points)

1995-96: 81 goals & 108 assists (199 points)

1996-97: 54 goals & 78 assists (132 points)

1997-98

through 

1999-2000: 181 goals & 234 assists (415 points)

2000-01: 67 goals & 78 assists (145 points) 

2001-02: 21 goals & 86 assists (107 points)

2002-03: 34 goals & 77 assists (111 points)

2003-04: 8 goals & 66 assists (74 points) 

2004-05: 15 goals & 56 assists (71 points)

2005-06: 23 goals & 47 assists (70 points)

Holy smokin' barbecues--only three seasons in 22 that he doesn't average at least a point per game; 

six years with at least two-points-per; six with 100+ assists; sixteen with 50+ goals; and two seasons 
with 200+ points!  

New career totals... 

 
Goals: 1,227. Assists: 1,875. Points: 3,102. PPG: 1.72.  

Now imagine his numbers without him having to endure cancer, surgery, incredible back pain,

continual double-teaming, and all those years of trapping. Gretzky who? 

Oh yeah: this

Wayne Gretzky 

1978-79: 47 goals & 66 assists (113 points)

1979-80: 53 goals & 89 assists (142 points)

1980-81: 56 goals & 112 assists (168 points)

1981-82: 94 goals & 123 assists (217 points)

1982-83: 73 goals & 128 assists (201 points)

1983-84: 96 goals & 131 assists (227 points)

1984-85: 75 goals & 138 assists (213 points)

1985-86: 53 goals & 167 assists (220 points)

1986-87: 64 goals & 126 assists (190 points)

1987-88: 51 goals & 140 assists (191 points)

1988-89: 57 goals & 120 assists (177 points)

1989-90: 45 goals & 115 assists (160 points)

1990-91: 43 goals & 128 assists (171 points)

1991-92: 34 goals & 100 assists (134 points)

1992-93: 29 goals & 89 assists (118 points)

1993-94: 38 goals & 93 assists (131 points)

1994-95: 19 goals & 63 assists (82 points)

1995-96: 24 goals & 81 assists (105 points)

1996-97: 25 goals & 72 assists (97 points)

1997-98: 23 goals & 67 assists (90 points)

1998-99: 11 goals & 62 assists (73 points)

New career totals... 

 
Goals: 1,010. Assists: 2,144. Points: 3,154. PPG: 1.83.

This dude was a psychotic offensive machine no matter how you slice and dice his career. For 

six straight years no one got close to his season point totals. Some will contend that his competition 
wasn't allowed to get physical with him because of some secret or unwritten NHL rule that protected 

him. Well that clandestine memorandum never made its way to Bryan Trottier or Clark Gillies. I've seen 

both players knock Gretz on his glutes. The Great One was a great one in part because he consistently 
kept his head up and could anticipate so well. If you want to try to knock his accomplishments by saying 
that he had enforcers on the ice, that's not anything special to Gretzky. Teams protect their stars. If you 
want to claim that he got his ridiculous numbers only because he played in a weak conference at 
Edmonton, or because he played in an era of outrageous offense, please explain why no one else from 
that conference or that era got near his numbers for a few years.  

And last but not even close to least:

Maurice Richard 

A player I not only admire for his clutch play and fiery determination. But also an individual I admire 

because he spoke up: about corruption in high NHL places, about French speakers getting battered 
just for speaking their mother tongue in Ontario, etc. 

My man Maurice gets 82 games a year and season averages like everybody else. 

1942-43: 26 goals & 31 assists (57 points)

1943-44: 57 goals & 39 assists (96 points)

1944-45: 82 goals & 38 assists (118 points)

[Yo, I'm open! Oh--The Rocket's got the

puck. I guess I'm cool with that.]

1945-46: 44 goals & 34 assists (78 points)

1946-47: 62 goals & 36 assists (98 points)

1947-48: 43 goals & 39 assists (82 points)

1948-49: 28 goals & 25 assists (53 points)

1949-50: 50 goals & 26 assists (76 assists)

1950-51: 53 goals & 30 assists (83 points)

1951-52: 46 goals & 29 assists (75 points)

1952-53: 33 goals & 39 assists (72 points)

1953-54: 43 goals & 35 assists (78 points)

1954-55: 47 goals & 44 assists (91 points)

1955-56: 45 goals & 39 assists (84 points)

1956-57: 43 goals & 38 assists (81 points)

1957-58: 44 goals & 56 assists (100 points)

1958-59: 33 goals & 41 assists (74 points)

1959-60: 31 goals & 26 assists (57 points)

New career totals for Monsieur Richard... 

 
Goals: 810. Assists: 645. Points: 1,455. PPG: .99.

Now imagine his numbers if he starts professionally at age eighteen. 

[sources for all five stallions:

(1) hockey-reference.com 

(2) my wandering focused imagination]

What do you say to no professional hockey player ever again wearing the numbers 99, 66, 4, or 9? 

I can think of at least two good reasons for #9.

I don't claim that what's been done here regarding these players equals unimpeachable science. 

Nor do I assert that their recorded numbers are lying. But I do contend that they don't tell the 
whole story. 

What other fun hockey imaginings could we flesh out? How about Mike Bossy scoring goals for, 

let's say, seventeen years? Or the Philadelphia Flyers with 50+ goal scorer Tim Kerr in the 
1987 Stanley Cup Finals? Or Wayne Gretzky gets called for high-sticking Doug Gilmour in the 
1993 playoffs? What are some of yours? I wish I could discuss this stuff with my pops. His 
favorite player's Stevie Y. 

I'd also love to see others do similar calculations or hypothetical interestingness for different 

NHL legends. (Partially correct translation: he's a liberal-arts guy and his brain's bleeding from 
all these numbers.) Looking forward to hearing from you!

Cheers, 

Brian Frandsen 

 

 
 

 

How did you come up with all these numbers, just assuming that their ppg through 82 games would be the same?

Because all players have their hot streaks, cold streaks etcetera. Unfortunately, ppg is really the only way to somehow predict how much points someone might have by 82 seasons. However, it should not be relied upon heavily....

 

I might have missed something, i admittedly skimmed through your ridiculously long post that would take me 10 something minutes to read....( yea, im a slow reader and person)

 

Guys, is this the record for longest first post by a user? :P

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@thenewestlights

 

Great first post.  Welcome to the site. 

 

You will find a number of members here who really enjoy discussion player history Yet you will only find a few users(ScottM and Jagermeister) that actually give enough of a **** to make a hockey history thread.  So bring us more!  

 

@JagerMeister

 

and yeah this post is definitely up there with the best of the first posts!

Fixed your sentence for you HF :)

 

Out of 59 hockey history threads, me and scottM make up 52 of all the threads in the hockey history forum, @thenewestlights You gotta help us out man!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im jk HF( me and scott actually have 52 out of 59 Hockey history threads though, just sayin..).....we really need a sarcasm emoticon here, i dont know how many times people took my ridiculously stupid comments seriously...

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Welcome aboard! If this thread is any indication of things to come, you'll most certainly be a fantastic addition to our community!

 

Thanks for including Richard in that group. Everybody talks about the other four in the discussion of the GOAT, but Richard is almost always left out. What I think many fans today fail to realize is that during the 1950's there was a very intense debate about who was better regarding Howe and Richard. If Richard was Howe's equal back then, shouldn't he be considered such today?

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Welcome aboard! If this thread is any indication of things to come, you'll most certainly be a fantastic addition to our community!

 

Thanks for including Richard in that group. Everybody talks about the other four in the discussion of the GOAT, but Richard is almost always left out. What I think many fans today fail to realize is that during the 1950's there was a very intense debate about who was better regarding Howe and Richard. If Richard was Howe's equal back then, shouldn't he be considered such today?

Richard was never Howe's equal in terms of overall production

Richard

Points 

1944-45 NHL 73 (2)

1945-46 NHL 48 (5)

1946-47 NHL 71 (2)

1947-48 NHL 53 (7)

1949-50 NHL 65 (4)

1950-51 NHL 66 (2)

1952-53 NHL 61 (3)

1953-54 NHL 67 (2)

1954-55 NHL 74 (2)

1955-56 NHL 71 (3)

1956-57 NHL 62 (6)

Career NHL 965 (88)

 

Howe

Points 

1949-50 NHL 68 (3)

1950-51 NHL 86 (1)

1951-52 NHL 86 (1)

1952-53 NHL 95 (1)

1953-54 NHL 81 (1)

1954-55 NHL 62 (5)

1955-56 NHL 79 (2)

1956-57 NHL 89 (1)

1957-58 NHL 77 (4)

1958-59 NHL 78 (4)

1959-60 NHL 73 (5)

1960-61 NHL 72 (5)

1961-62 NHL 77 (3)

1962-63 NHL 86 (1)

1963-64 NHL 73 (5)

1964-65 NHL 76 (3)

1965-66 NHL 75 (5)

1966-67 NHL 65 (4)

1967-68 NHL 82 (3)

1968-69 NHL 103 (3)

1969-70 NHL 71 (9)

1973-74 WHA 100 (3)

1974-75 WHA 99 (8)

1975-76 WHA 102 (9)

1977-78 WHA 96 (9)

Career NHL 1850 (3)

Career WHA 508 (7)

 

Richard led the league in goals 5 times, Howe also led the league in goals 5 times, , Howe led the league in assists 3 times, Richard never did. Richard was never first in points.

 

Goalscoring, Richard>Howe

Playmaking, Howe>Richard

Overall offensive production, Howe>richard

Defense, I believe its Howe>Richard

Physicality, Howe>Richard

Better playoff performer, Richard>Howe

 

Richard was never first in points, even before 1947 when Howe joined the league....

Am i the only one who feels maybe richard was not even the best player before Howe came?

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Richard was never Howe's equal in terms of overall production

Richard

Points 

1944-45 NHL 73 (2)

1945-46 NHL 48 (5)

1946-47 NHL 71 (2)

1947-48 NHL 53 (7)

1949-50 NHL 65 (4)

1950-51 NHL 66 (2)

1952-53 NHL 61 (3)

1953-54 NHL 67 (2)

1954-55 NHL 74 (2)

1955-56 NHL 71 (3)

1956-57 NHL 62 (6)

Career NHL 965 (88)

 

Howe

Points 

1949-50 NHL 68 (3)

1950-51 NHL 86 (1)

1951-52 NHL 86 (1)

1952-53 NHL 95 (1)

1953-54 NHL 81 (1)

1954-55 NHL 62 (5)

1955-56 NHL 79 (2)

1956-57 NHL 89 (1)

1957-58 NHL 77 (4)

1958-59 NHL 78 (4)

1959-60 NHL 73 (5)

1960-61 NHL 72 (5)

1961-62 NHL 77 (3)

1962-63 NHL 86 (1)

1963-64 NHL 73 (5)

1964-65 NHL 76 (3)

1965-66 NHL 75 (5)

1966-67 NHL 65 (4)

1967-68 NHL 82 (3)

1968-69 NHL 103 (3)

1969-70 NHL 71 (9)

1973-74 WHA 100 (3)

1974-75 WHA 99 (8)

1975-76 WHA 102 (9)

1977-78 WHA 96 (9)

Career NHL 1850 (3)

Career WHA 508 (7)

 

Richard led the league in goals 5 times, Howe also led the league in goals 5 times, , Howe led the league in assists 3 times, Richard never did. Richard was never first in points.

 

Goalscoring, Richard>Howe

Playmaking, Howe>Richard

Overall offensive production, Howe>richard

Defense, I believe its Howe>Richard

Physicality, Howe>Richard

Better playoff performer, Richard>Howe

 

Richard was never first in points, even before 1947 when Howe joined the league....

Am i the only one who feels maybe richard was not even the best player before Howe came?

 

Yet, in PPG for the years their careers overlapped, they were fairly close. 0.96 for Richard, 1.06 for Howe. That's a difference of only 6 or 7 points for a full year based on the length of a season 60 or 70 game season. It's there, but not massive. As for GPG, Richard had Howe beaten over those years. Richard: 0.53, Howe: 0.49. That's a difference of about 3 or 4 goals with the same criteria. Again, it's there but not massive. I think that Richard was a slightly better goal scorer, and Howe was a slightly better playmaker. They were pretty neck and neck with each other.

 

I'll through this in for the sake of discussion too. There were many people who felt that Richard was the recipient of far more on ice abuse than the officials would have allowed for anyone else. It even led to a riot in the aftermath of a suspension the Rocket received after lashing out in frustration during a game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Riot

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Yet, in PPG for the years their careers overlapped, they were fairly close. 0.96 for Richard, 1.06 for Howe. That's a difference of only 6 or 7 points for a full year based on the length of a season 60 or 70 game season. It's there, but not massive. As for GPG, Richard had Howe beaten over those years. Richard: 0.53, Howe: 0.49. That's a difference of about 3 or 4 goals with the same criteria. Again, it's there but not massive. I think that Richard was a slightly better goal scorer, and Howe was a slightly better playmaker. They were pretty neck and neck with each other.

 

I'll through this in for the sake of discussion too. There were many people who felt that Richard was the recipient of far more on ice abuse than the officials would have allowed for anyone else. It even led to a riot in the aftermath of a suspension the Rocket received after lashing out in frustration during a game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Riot

I did acknowledge that Howe was the better playmaker and Richard the better goalscorer, you would know that if you read my whole post.... :ph34r:

In all seriousness though, i think its close but its still pretty clear Howe was the overall better offensive player

throughout 1949-1956, Richard had only 1 season where he had more points or a better ppg than Howe. 

Here is their ppg's throughout 1949-1956

Richard

1949-50 NHL 0.93 (4)
1950-51 NHL 1.02 (2)
1951-52 NHL 0.92 (4)
1952-53 NHL 0.87 (3)
1953-54 NHL 0.96 (3)
1954-55 NHL 1.10 (1)
1955-56 NHL 1.01 (4)
1956-57 NHL 0.98 (5)
 
Howe
1949-50 NHL 0.97 (3)

1950-51 NHL 1.23 (1)

1951-52 NHL 1.23 (1)

1952-53 NHL 1.36 (1)

1953-54 NHL 1.16 (1)

1954-55 NHL 0.97 (4)

1955-56 NHL 1.13 (2)

1956-57 NHL 1.27 (1)

 

Then you add the fact that Howe was the more complete player and it becomes even more clear Howe was better than Maurice, again. Nothing against Maurice, i just think that sometimes his hockey legacy can make people think he was better than he actually was....

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I did acknowledge that Howe was the better playmaker and Richard the better goalscorer, you would know that if you read my whole post.... :ph34r:

 

The problem was that I misread the goalscorer part. I thought it said Howe was greater. My bad.

 

Then you add the fact that Howe was the more complete player and it becomes even more clear Howe was better than Maurice

 

I agree that Howe was better. I just don't think that Richard was overrated. Of the five, I would rank Richard at the bottom, but I think he belongs in the conversation.

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The problem was that I misread the goalscorer part. I thought it said Howe was greater. My bad.

 

Lol, i was joking. But you misread it anyways  :P

 

 

 

I agree that Howe was better. I just don't think that Richard was overrated. Of the five, I would rank Richard at the bottom, but I think he belongs in the conversation.

I think Richard would be in my top 10, not sure if top 5 though. There is that one guy who won 7( almost 8) norris trophies on the Habs and is apparently the greatest defensive defenseman ever according to hockey writers.

Then there is that farmer boy wife beater who led the league in goals 7 times.....

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Lol, i was joking. But you misread it anyways  :P

I think Richard would be in my top 10, not sure of top 5 though. There is that one guy who won 7( almost 8) norris trophies on the Habs and is apparently the greatest defensive defenseman ever according to hockey writers.

Then there is that farmer boy and wife beater who led the league in goals 7 times.....

 

I can go along with that. I don't think there's a guarantee that Richard would be in my top five, either. Maybe. I'm just not sure. Then again, some players move up and down on my lists all the time. Lol

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I can go along with that. I don't think there's a guarantee that Richard would be in my top five, either. Maybe. I'm just not sure. Then again, some players move up and down on my lists all the time. Lol

Basically this, the only unmovable ones are Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux

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Thanks to everybody who will spend time with or

did spend time with my post. A better version of which 

can be found here: 

 

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?p=99840357#post99840357

 

Both are LONG indeed. 

 

I have enjoyed reading your replies. 

 

P.S. I ain't no Avalanche fan. Someone "clearly" compromised my profile. 

I'm a Kings guy. : )

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Thanks to everybody who will spend time with or

did spend time with my post. A better version of which

can be found here:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?p=99840357#post99840357

Both are LONG indeed.

I have enjoyed reading your replies.

P.S. I ain't no Avalanche fan. Someone "clearly" compromised my profile.

I'm a Kings guy. : )

Oh, a kings fan....congrats, I think your the first and last one thats gonna be here......

:)

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Update: 

 

(1) The content up yonder's now uniform at both 

this here site and that there other one. 

 

(2) I am now more officially a Kings fan than before 

thanks to hf101 successfully battling technology. 

I see you posted the same thread on HFBoards....You must choose, come to the light, or join the dark side.

 

Its up to you to figure out which one is which.... :ph34r:

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I see you posted the same thread on HFBoards....You must choose, come to the light, or join the dark side.

 

Its up to you to figure out which one is which.... :ph34r:

 

There may be no hope for me. As I'm looking at joining, posting, reading at still more sites. 

It's a tricky hockey-fan lifestyle I'm considering living. : )  

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@thenewestlights

 

Welcome.

 

There are several of us that "dabble" over at the HF boards.

 

I have account there, but have never really posted. And only for prospects. This place is funnier, more entertaining. It's also just better. No ads, better look and feel. It's good to see it growing, but I feel bad for doing so little to recruit. Eventually, people will find this place....

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HFboards has over 100,000 members. Hockey Forums does not even have 1500 members. Therefore, HFBoards over Hockey Forums.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:ph34r:

 

 

This is a thread about 5 hockey legends. if this was HF you'd be banned right now for veering off topic.

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This is hf and I'd like to see this thread back on topic.  No need to discuss other forums unless it is in the OT section.  

In other words several posts in this thread were moved to the OT section.

 

Carry on!

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This is hf and I'd like to see this thread back on topic.  No need to discuss other forums unless it is in the OT section.  

In other words several posts in this thread were moved to the OT section.

 

Carry on!

 

 

I will attempt to get this thread back on topic in mere moments or minutes. : )

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How did you come up with all these numbers, just assuming that their ppg through 82 games would be the same?

Because all players have their hot streaks, cold streaks etcetera. Unfortunately, ppg is really the only way to somehow predict how much points someone might have by 82 seasons. However, it should not be relied upon heavily....

 

I might have missed something, i admittedly skimmed through your ridiculously long post that would take me 10 something minutes to read....( yea, im a slow reader and person)

 

Guys, is this the record for longest first post by a user? :P

 

 

You're right that players have their hot and cold streaks. 

And although I didn't think it at the time, my approach 

accounted for that. Some of the individual seasons, 

the actual ones and not my imagined ones, even indicate 

that my process may have been conservative in some ways. 

 

But like I said in my original post, what was done wasn't scientific. 

Yet I find the recorded numbers lacking as well. In addition

to contextual understanding such as health and hardship

that affected and prevented production, no actual or theoretical

math can articulate just how incredible it was for me to watch

Lemieux bust through getting jumped by two players to score

a goal that faked a goalie out of his pads, or to see Gretzky

assist on a play that neither I nor the camera crew saw coming.   

 

And I forgive you for skimming. : ) That was indeed an EAGER entry

into the world of hockey posting. I had a lot of fun crunching numbers 

and swirling possibilities for those five chaps. 

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Update: 

 

(1) The content up yonder's now uniform at both 

this here site and that there other one. 

 

(2) I am now more officially a Kings fan than before 

thanks to hf101 successfully battling technology. 

I still hope in the final game of the season against the sharks, we end up being the team that makes you miss the playoffs.

 

Kinda like clubbing the teacher after you fail the playoff....errr class, but satisfying all the same :P

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