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More injury woes for Flyers...Read and Schenn report injuries


pilldoc

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In seperate articles it is being reported that L. Schenn is to season ending surgery and Read has been playing with not 1, BUT 2 torn ligaments in his ankles.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20150402_Flyers__Schenn_expected_to_have_surgery.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20150402_Luke_Schenn_set_for_abdominal_surgery.html

 

At what point is it the players responsibility to report said injuryt and at what point is it managements and coaches responsibility to sit said player until the injury his healed sufficiently enough and not effect the play on the ice.  I am deathly afraid that mangament will use these injuries as excuses for the Flyers piss poor effort this season and not make the changes that are in dire need.

 

Read should have be sat back in Novemember when the injury supposedly occured.  To be playing almost the entire season on a bad ankle is ridiculous especially if the coaching staff new about it. 

 

I am livid right now.  In another post, I posted "are players afraid to report these injuries?"  I get the competitive nature of a pro-athlete, but to be playing hurt in a team sport such as hockey is IMO, selfish.  If I am over-reacting please tell me.

 

And don't even get me started on Mason.  If he states he is not healthy enough for the worlds, the WTF is he still starting.  I seriously doo not get this team.....

 

Come on Hexy ...give me some hope and clean house starting the day after the season ends.........

 

end of rant

 

 

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This team certainly needs a new head coach, new assistants, new goalie coach, and probably most of all, a new medical staff.  

The incompetence of this medical staff has been widely known for around a decade.   McCrossin seriously has to go.

 

Didn't Dave Babych even win a lawsuit against the Flyers' medical staff??

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This season can't end soon enough. I get the desire to make player changes this summer but we have 2-3, maybe 4, contracts that are an albatross around the Flyers cap space and deal making. I look to for no serious change this summer bar a token move, coach change or if they just go ahead and buy out 2-3 players and just eat it for the next six years or so...

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This season can't end soon enough. I get the desire to make player changes this summer but we have 2-3, maybe 4, contracts that are an albatross around the Flyers cap space and deal making. I look to for no serious change this summer bar a token move, coach change or if they just go ahead and buy out 2-3 players and just eat it for the next six years or so...

 

I really think we need to bite the bullet and either buyout Vinny, or eat half his salary and deal him. (whatever is cheaper)...  Umberger I'm willing to give another year to, especially if he comes back healthier.  He just fits better on this team as a 3rd/4th liner than Vinny.

 

But I'll be super disappointed if there isn't a complete overhaul of this coaching staff.   

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At this point of the season almost every player in the NHL is playing through some kind of injury. If Read says he can play, and he's cleared by the doctor (not McCrossin, who is just a trainer) and he's still better than any alternative that the team has (which he was) then he plays. This happens in every pro sport, every year.

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I really think we need to bite the bullet and either buyout Vinny, or eat half his salary and deal him. (whatever is cheaper)...  Umberger I'm willing to give another year to, especially if he comes back healthier.  He just fits better on this team as a 3rd/4th liner than Vinny.

 

But I'll be super disappointed if there isn't a complete overhaul of this coaching staff.   

 

I say keep him one more season. Try and trade him every single day of it. If you can't buy him oui.

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At this point of the season almost every player in the NHL is playing through some kind of injury. If Read says he can play, and he's cleared by the doctor (not McCrossin, who is just a trainer) and he's still better than any alternative that the team has (which he was) then he plays. This happens in every pro sport, every year.

I agree with the sentiment, but if a player has been on bad wheels since NOVEMBER that's something else entirely.

Especially one who has had a disappointing season.

Doubly so on a team who had ANOTHER disappointing player apparently playing injured all year.

Triple so on a team with a history of this kind of thing...

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I agree with the sentiment, but if a player has been on bad wheels since NOVEMBER that's something else entirely.

Especially one who has had a disappointing season.

Doubly so on a team who had ANOTHER disappointing player apparently playing injured all year.

Triple so on a team with a history of this kind of thing...

 

Professional athletes play hurt. When McNabb played with a sports hernia did people complain about the Eagles medical staff? Every team has a history of this sort of thing. In every sport.

 

Edit: and in the article, Read said that it took a couple months to heal (January). Meaning it's not still bothering him.

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Professional athletes play hurt. When McNabb played with a sports hernia did people complain about the Eagles medical staff?

 

Different situation. McNabb was recommended to have surgery and then elected to play through the pain. And the Eagles went 6-10 that season, missing the playoffs for the first time in five years.

 

But, hey, McNabb was a warrior who did what was best for the team by playing...

 

Edit: and in the article, Read said that it took a couple months to heal (January).

Meaning it's not still bothering him.

 

So everybody's injured at this point of the season, except for the guy who was injured, but who's high ankle sprain/torn ligaments improved playing NHL hockey to such an extent that it isn't an issue any more?

 

Your two lines of thought on this seem to be in contradiction. Or the team's "explanations" don't hold much water...

 

The article says the injury happened on Nov. 1. It was reported in January and then, later that month, it was healed - as all high ankle sprains/torn ligaments naturally do when playing professional hockey.

 

In 13-14 Read had five goals and seven points in November and 2 goals, 8 points in December. In 14-15 he had one goal and four points in November and 1 goal, six points in December. That's a dropoff of four goals and five points during the time he "was" injured.

 

Then 0 goals, four points this season in January while he put up 4 goals, six points last season.

 

That's a dropoff of eight goals during the period where he "was" injured. Do we think the high ankle sprain was affecting him before it healed itself playing NHL hockey? Do we think that those eight goals might have had an influence on the Flyers' record over that period? Might that change in record have made a significant difference in the point standings as they came down the stretch?

 

We will, of course, never know. I would, however, say "yes." Unless it's just a coincidence that Read's worst season as a professional just happened to coincide with the year that he played 2-3 months injured.

Again, I agree with you that at this point in the season that players are playing injured and have all sorts of nicks, bumps, bruises and in some cases worse. The question of how that relates to an injury in November is the issue at hand.

 

You also neatly ignored the whole Umburglar situation - where the team was apparently unbeknownst to itself playing two injured guys on a regular basis. And the team's history of doing exactly that.

 

How much of an impact did these two "Top Nine" forwards playing injured on a regular basis have on the outcome of this season?

 

We can only conjecture.

 

Something tells me this will just be an excuse to have the same bust of a lineup next season....

 

Excuse? They already have 12 forwards, 6 Dmen and a goalie under contract for next season and are looking to sign White to make it 13 forwards and MDZ is an RFA...

 

They don't need an "excuse" - it's already reality. (caveat: Gudas will essentially replace Coburn)

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@radoran - you're just going to have to forgive me for trying to keep things simple. According Matt Read himself, he played on a bad ankle for two months earlier this season. From November to sometime in January. End of story as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who wants to lose sleep over a professional athlete playing on a sprained ankle for a couple months is free to do so.

 

Re: Schenn, Umberger, and sports hernias. Lots of athletes get them. Lots of those athletes play through them. McNabb tried to do so until he couldn't anymore (or until he was too embarrassed by that game losing interception he threw against Dallas). Anyone who thinks a 100% healthy RJ Umberger and a 100% healthy Luke Schenn would have made a significant difference in the Flyers season is again free to do so.

 

This is NOT a good team. Homer put together a poorly constructed roster. EVERYBODY knows this. And yet when this poorly constructed roster performs poorly, it's the trainer's fault. Or the medical staff. Or the player, but not because the player isn't good but because the player played through an injury.

 

Last game against Detroit, Kronwall got "Kronwalled", remember? He literally looked like he didn't know where he was. He left for a while and then came back in the game. There's no way he didn't suffer at least a minor concussion. But Detroit is the "gold standard" so it's ok.

 

EVERY freaking team in EVERY freaking professional sports league does this kind of thing. And crap, what am even I saying? It's not just professionals. Same goes in big time college and high school sports. Probably junior hockey in Canada too. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to come out from under whatever rock they've been living under.

 

Blame the Flyers all you want. Maybe they deserve it. But so does everyone else. THAT'S my point.

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From November to sometime in January. End of story as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who wants to lose sleep over a professional athlete playing on a sprained ankle for a couple months is free to do so.

 

That's great, aside from the significant dropoff in production that just happened to coincide with the injury that was "healed" by playing NHL hockey on a regular basis.

 

I'm not "losing sleep" over it. They Flyers - most likely - lost games over it.

 


Re: Schenn, Umberger, and sports hernias. Lots of athletes get them. Lots of those athletes play through them. McNabb tried to do so until he couldn't anymore (or until he was too embarrassed by that game losing interception he threw against Dallas).

 

I haven't said anything about sports hernias. You brought them up. Nor Schenn for that matter. Umburglar's problem is/was a hip, not a "sports hernia"

 

And you asked what the reaction was to McNabb playing - which was what I was specifically responding to. People did have a problem with it and McNabb "tried to play through it" and produced a flop of a season.

 

So, the point that "playing injured happens all the time" doesn't erase the fact that "playing injured all the time" often results in poorer overall performance for the team in general.

 

And losing eight goals over the course of being injured is a significant problem for a team.

 


This is NOT a good team. Homer put together a poorly constructed roster. EVERYBODY knows this. And yet when this poorly constructed roster performs poorly, it's the trainer's fault. Or the medical staff. Or the player, but not because the player isn't good but because the player played through an injury.

 

Hextall says this is a playoff team and that he expects if people play to their ability that the team will be better next year.

 

To an extent, I agree with him. I do think this should be a 7/8 seed team creeping into the playoffs - if everyone plays "to their ability."

 

But my point is that if they play people injured then they can't play to their ability.

 


Blame the Flyers all you want. Maybe they deserve it. But so does everyone else. THAT'S my point.

 

I haven't disagreed that "everyone does it" - I've specifically agreed to that in every post about this so far. I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise:

 


I agree with the sentiment, but if a player has been on bad wheels since NOVEMBER that's something else entirely.

 

Again, the point is that "playing injured" doesn't always - or, IMO, usually - "help" a team.

 

And Read saying "I'm fine now and have been since January" after insisting there was nothing wrong earlier in the season when there clearly was something wrong quite frankly doesn't mean much to me.

 

Guy just had his worst season as a professional and it "just happened" to coincide with a season in which he apparently played injured for three months.

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That's great, aside from the significant dropoff in production that just happened to coincide with the injury that was "healed" by playing NHL hockey on a regular basis.

 

Players who play through injury tend to not play as well as they do when they're not injured. Why is this in any way shocking?

 

 

 

Umburglar's problem is/was a hip, not a "sports hernia"

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/flyers/Flyers-Umberger-will-have-surgery-miss-rest-of-season.html

 

General manager Ron Hextall said Umberger had two cam lesions in his right hip, and added that it’s not unusual for players to play through that type of injury.

 
The Flyers knew about the condition, Hextall said, when they acquired Umberger and a 2015 fourth-round draft pick from Columbus last June for Scott Hartnell.
 
"This didn't come out of the blue. It was inevitable last summer," Hextall said. "We knew at the end of the year he would be getting surgery. It's one of those things where you lean on the player. If he's in too much pain and can't perform and you feel like his performance isn't helping. then it's like, 'OK, let's shut him down and get him ready for next year.’ ”
 
The abdominal tear, Hextall said, is what slowed Umberger for “months” and eventually shut him down for the season.
 
“He probably should have come to us a little bit earlier,” Hextall said, “but I give him credit that he didn’t because he’s a tough guy.”
 
I'm assuming "abdominal tear" = "sports hernia".
 

 

To an extent, I agree with him. I do think this should be a 7/8 seed team creeping into the playoffs - if everyone plays "to their ability."

 

But my point is that if they play people injured then they can't play to their ability.

 
Well, we sort of agree there agree there, before the season started I thought they would be borderline playoffs, either just in or just out. Beyond that, pretty much by definition, any injury reduces a players ability to play to his ability. That said, there are two problems, 1) this isn't the Spanish Inquisition- you can't just strap someone down on a table and cut them open. The player has to volunteer, and 2) The Flyers prospect pool is not exactly overflowing. They brought Loughton up, who else is there that it actually better than Read at say, 75%? Nobody, imo.
 
Again, one more time. My point is not to "defend" the Flyers. My point is that people are getting up in arms for something that happens on every team, in every sport, every single year. The Flyers are no more guilty of this kind of thing than anyone else.
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Players who play through injury tend to not play as well as they do when they're not injured. Why is this in any way shocking?

 

It's not. It's my point.

 

What isn't clear about that?

 

 

 

I'm assuming "abdominal tear" = "sports hernia".

 

His surgery is on his hip. And, FWIW, Hextall later claimed they had no idea he was injured when they traded for him.

 

Anyone taking the Bob Clarke School of Communications graduates in the Flyers front office at face value about anything is fooling themselves...

 

 

 

who else is there that it actually better than Read at say, 75%? Nobody, imo.

 

You might reference the number of people who have praised Nick Cousins for his "contributions" in garbage time this season. I may not agree, but it's there...

 

I wish Read had been playing at, say, 75% - but his production dropped off a heluva lot more than that. He went from 11 goals Nov-Jan to two. That's 18%.

 

 

 

Again, one more time. My point is not to "defend" the Flyers. My point is that people are getting up in arms for something that happens on every team, in every sport, every single year. The Flyers are no more guilty of this kind of thing than anyone else.

 

I haven't disagreed with that - ever. I've acknowledged it and specifically agreed with it. Why you feel the need to continue to assert it as new information to me is mysterious to me.

 

My reply point, which has been stated clearly several times, is that it usually doesn't help.

 

And certainly didn't with Read and the Flyers. Or Umburglar and the Flyers. Or any of the many other times we've been down this same path.

 

Maybe stop repeating the things which haven't produced the results you're looking for and the results you get might change.

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@radoran - ok then. I guess we agree to disagree then. On what I'm not sure but whatever.

 

I don't know what's so mysterious to you.

 

We agree that players play injured.

 

We agree that "all teams do it."

 

We agree "especially at this time of the year."

 

We agree that players who play injured typically don't produce as well as when they aren't injured.

 

We apparently disagree that players who are injured to the extent that their goal scoring drops off 80% in November through January are helping the team by playing.

 

I believe they don't help the team in that situation.

 

YMMV.

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I don't know what's so mysterious to you.

 

We agree that players play injured.

 

We agree that "all teams do it."

 

We agree "especially at this time of the year."

 

We agree that players who play injured typically don't produce as well as when they aren't injured.

 

We apparently disagree that players who are injured to the extent that their goal scoring drops off 80% in November through January are helping the team by playing.

 

I believe they don't help the team in that situation.

 

YMMV.

 

Well, that sounds pretty good then. If everyone agreed on things as much as we do the world would be a better place.   :cool[1]:

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At what point is it the players responsibility to report said injuryt and at what point is it managements and coaches responsibility to sit said player until the injury his healed sufficiently enough and not effect the play on the ice. I am deathly afraid that mangament will use these injuries as excuses for the Flyers piss poor effort this season and not make the changes that are in dire need.

 

I think these are the kinds of things players usually just play through, but because the season is lost and the playoffs aren't happening, there's no real point so they might as well get healthy now.

 

And honestly, if Berube can't tell that Read is skating with two torn ligaments in his foot then Berube is really really bad at his job.  Obviously he doesn't have MRI vision, but if a guy's skating with something wrong like that, the staff can tell.  If they can't, they're lying to themselves.

 

Here's the thing... I could tell.  I think most of us could tell something or another has been wrong with Read all year.  It turned out something was wrong earlier in the year and he was playing through it.  Now something else is wrong and he's playing through it.

 

Same was true of Umberger.  You look at these guys out there and they don't look right.  They look like something is really wrong with them.  It's not at all surprising to me and as a FAN watching in TELEVISION not in the locker room, not watching the practice, as a guy at home watching television I can see that these guys are playing hurt... if it's a surprise to the staff than that staff needs to go back to staffing Mighty Mytes because they aren't cutting it. 

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It's a foregone conclusion that a 4 million dollar player who isn't producing or playing well in defense and is hurt should be removed from the lineup.  Debate of that is silly.  PLaying an injured Jeff Carter in game 7 of the cup finals is debatable.  Playing an injured RJ umberger in January is not.

 

The question I have is, well then why the hell were they playing?

 

Is it the same cap issues that drove Hextall to pressure Mason into returning too soon?

 

If so can we beat the hell out of Homer in a public venue for real this time?

 

 


We apparently disagree that players who are injured to the extent that their goal scoring drops off 80% in November through January are helping the team by playing.
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Excuse? They already have 12 forwards, 6 Dmen and a goalie under contract for next season and are looking to sign White to make it 13 forwards and MDZ is an RFA...
 
They don't need an "excuse" - it's already reality. (caveat: Gudas will essentially replace Coburn)

 

 

you can still trade players in this league right?

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Trading requires two partners.

Trading these contracts require one of them to be insane.

 

 

to a degree.... there are players that could be traded if they wanted:  Coots, Schenn, Laughton, etc... to say that every player is immovable is stretching the truth a bit too far.

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you can still trade players in this league right?

 

Oh yes i feel a couple will be moved this offseason...as i stated the Flyers already have 50 3rd line centers...so they will trade from this strength to shore up the wing i believe...and they may even try to obtain another veteran defenseman....one maybe who can actually play some defense.

 

The candidates on the way out will be any of the following...ok the whole roster basically with the exception of G, Jake Simmer and Mason i believe can be had.

 

But my choice offering would be Brayden and Luke and Nick. And of course the given ones VLC, RJ and Mcdud the 3 noone will even want.

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to a degree.... there are players that could be traded if they wanted: Coots, Schenn, Laughton, etc... to say that every player is immovable is stretching the truth a bit too far.

Or perhaps trading one of them just requires a different partner to be insane from my POV?

That's half a joke.

You trade one of them now, I think you really screws yourself unless it's for Something amazing (Coots, B Schenn and Hagg for Ekblad or Seth Jones? Now still requires a hint of insanity on the other side).

Honestly, unless some absurd sweetheart deal comes along (like the Coburn deal) I stand pat if I'm Hextall and put my efforts into finding a meme coach.

I have complete confidence that with a half decent hockey mind we will not hate this team half as much next year and we'll be celebrating an unceremonious first round exit and the promise of better things to come once they finally mature and we lose the less dead but still not worth the trouble weight of VLC, Umberger and MacDonald, though I expect at least two of those three to be markedly better under a different coach. As long as to a real coach and not another overly concussed Good ole boy.

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