Why Jaromir Jagr Is Overrated

[JagerMeister]

Jagr is one of the greatest offensive players of all time, but he is somewhat overrated, here is why...

 

 

He isnt even the best player to come out of his country

That title, belongs to Dominik Hasek,

Hasek was brought up in a terrible Buffalo team, while Jagr was surrounded by some of the greatest talents to ever play the game.

Despite this, Hasek arguably accomplished more than Jagr in the individual award department. Hasek has more Harts then a forward, and as a goalie, thats quite the accomplishment.

Also, Hasek has a pretty decent argument for best goalie of all time, Jagr cant say the same for his position. And most importantly, Hasek has had dominant playoff performances in which he carried his whole crap team and got them very far, But Jagr...

 

 

Jagr`s playoff performances were not dominant

He has hit the 20 point mark in the post season 2 times, while other so called worse offensive players (we`ll get into this later..) like Forsberg, Federov and Sakic hit the 20 point mark in more than that, and lets not forget that the only two times Jagr hit the 20 point mark was when he was playing with Mario Lemieux....

Now, some might argue that his 07-08 performance with NYR was dominant, i dont agree. It was great for sure, but not dominant. I would Consider Crosby`s 07-08 and 08-09 performances as well as Ovechkins 08-09 dominant. Both of which were better than Jagrs 07-08 performance, and both players also get alot of criticism for not being all that great playoff performers the last few years, but I rarely see Jagrs name get mentioned when we talk about players who underachieved in the playoffs.

 

 

He might have not even been the second best offensive player of the 90s, and he certainly was not the best forward of the late 90s....

Out of all the reasons, im pretty sure this one will stur the most controversy. But let me explain myself first.

 

During his Art Ross wins, he had quite the weak offensive competition. Now i dont say that because Lindros, Sakic or forsberg were not good offensive players, I say that because these 3 players where his main competition for the art ross, and they didnt only focus on offense, unlike Jagr. Sakis was a tremendous 2 way player, Lindros was a great offensive player while being the most physically dominant player of all time, and Forsberg was both good defensively and physically. Jagr focused solely on offense. What if the other 3 focused solely on offense, that would give them enough time to actually be able to compete with Jagr for the art ross, because if all those 3 focused only on offense, im not sure Jagr would be the clear cut best offensive player of the 90s.

 

And this all ties into Jagr not being the best forward of the late 90s, give me the complete player over the one who focuses solely on offense. And no, i wouldnt take Toews over Crosby, because the gap of offense between Jagr and the other 3 is not that big compared to Toews and Crosby.

 

 

Also, despite the fact that he had won 5 art rosses, he won only 1 mvp, seems like even the voters agreed with me in that regard.

He was never the best player in the world, let alone best forward....

[WordsOfWisdom]

I thought Jagr is one of your favourite players?  

 

All excellent points. I don't know that Jagr was ever the best player in the game at any point in his career. I regard him as one of the greatest forwards of all time. If everyone has names like Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, Roy, Hasek, etc.... in that first cut of best players ever, then Jagr is at or near the top of the next group of players that get discussed. The group that includes names like Messier, Bossy, Dionne, Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, and so on......

 

[JagerMeister]

I thought Jagr is one of your favourite players?  

 

All excellent points. I don't know that Jagr was ever the best player in the game at any point in his career. I regard him as one of the greatest forwards of all time. If everyone has names like Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, Roy, Hasek, etc.... in that first cut of best players ever, then Jagr is at or near the top of the next group of players that get discussed. The group that includes names like Messier, Bossy, Dionne, Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, and so on......

 

He`s not one of my favourite players, he IS my favourite player. That being said, I am not so blind as to praise him like he is better than he actually is. I can name 15 players off the top of my head that I would put over him if I were to make a top ten list of greatest players of all time.

[WordsOfWisdom]

He`s not one of my favourite players, he IS my favourite player. That being said, I am not so blind as to praise him like he is better than he actually is. I can name 15 players off the top of my head that I would put over him if I were to make a top ten list of greatest players of all time.

 

Duly noted. 

[hf101]

@JagerMeister

 

Nice Blog!

All valid points, but why should Jagr have to be considered "overrated" while thus far he's still the best Forward ever from CZE?  He is a well respected hockey player from his country and that said is quite honorable.  

 

He got a well received ovation today from probably his greatest fans in Prague.  Although the speed of today's game is passing Jagr by - 6 goals and 3 assists in 10 games for the tournament is rather incredible for the 42 year old.  

[ScottM]

@hf101 If Jagr is viewed in the way you view him in your post, he's not overrated. But then I think about that article that we all mocked not so long ago that claimed that he is the third best forward of all time. I think that in the minds of some he has become a larger than life figure and that it is beginning to cloud their judgment. I fully understand how it can happen, because he is still something of an offensive that at age 42, and we're watching him climb the all-time goal scorers list right in front of our eyes. If he plays two more full seasons, he may make it to third.

That said, I think that those who view him in that lofty of a light are badly mistaken. Is he great? Absolutely. Top three of all-time? Absolutely not. I personally wouldn't have him in my top three right wingers of all time, let alone forwards. That article mutt be an extreme example, but I think it does represent a certain portion of fans that have gotten a bit carried away with Jagr's true position.

I hope I didn't sound like I'm trying to knock him, because I think he is great. (Spoiler alert: I'll probably have him at #6 on my upcoming top 10 right wingers list.) I just think that there's a certain section of hockeydom that has taken him to a level of rarified air that only a very select number of players qualify for.

Edit:fixed typo on ranking.

[RJ8812]

well, Lemieux and Howe aren't the greatest players to come out of their country either...

 

 

Jagr is the greatest RWer in history 

[jammer2]

@RJ8812  Only because Mike Bossy had no longevity....

[ScottM]

@RJ8812  Only because Mike Bossy had no longevity....

Mr. Hockey and the Rocket might have a thing or three to say about that too. Lol

[jammer2]

Mr. Hockey and the Rocket might have a thing or three to say about that too. Lol

 

 Yeah, I guess we could let them enter the conversation....huh? LMAO!!!

[JagerMeister]

well, Lemieux and Howe aren't the greatest players to come out of their country either...

 

 

Jagr is the greatest RWer in history 

Thats quite the bold statement to make, and the fact that you didnt give any real argument as to why he is the greatest right wing in history does not help either.

But Jagr has little to no argument for greatest Right winger in history.

Lets compare Jagr to Howe....

 

Jagr

5 art ross trophies

1 MVP and 4 times runner up to MVP

3 Pearsons

Led the league in assists 4 times

Led the league in assists per game once

Led the league in points per game 3 times.

Led the league in goals....never

Led the league in goals per game once

 

 

 

 

Howe

6 art ross trophies

6 Hart trophies, as well as being in the top ten for hart trophy voting for 20 years straight.

And it is also important to note that the lester b Pearson trophy and the Selke trophy was not made during Gordie Howe's prime, so you can only imagine how much more hardware he would have.

Led the league in assists 3 times

Led the league in assists per game twice

Led the league in points per game 7 times

Led the league in goals 5 times

Led the league in goals per game 3 times

 

All the while being one of the most complete players to ever play the game, in contrast to Jagr's offense only mindset.

 

 

@RJ8812  Only because Mike Bossy had no longevity....

I hope you realize that in his last year, he was not even on pace for 50 goals? If he were to play more seasons, his GPG would go down, and he never got a chance to really decline, while we only saw a glimpse of it during his last season. 

[JagerMeister]

@JagerMeister

 

Nice Blog!

All valid points, but why should Jagr have to be considered "overrated" while thus far he's still the best Forward ever from CZE?  He is a well respected hockey player from his country and that said is quite honorable.  

 

He got a well received ovation today from probably his greatest fans in Prague.  Although the speed of today's game is passing Jagr by - 6 goals and 3 assists in 10 games for the tournament is rather incredible for the 42 year old.  

Well, i didnt know what else to call the title of the thread, because "Why Jaromir Jagr is not as good as you think he is" is another way of saying he is overrated...oh and right now, the best czech is Voracek...

I actually dont think the speed of the game will hurt Jagrs production THTA much....

All these years, since his groin injury, he has not needed to rely on speed, and that still got him a Pearson trophy at the age of 34, and just last year, he was able to produce 67 points while being one of the slowest forwards in the game, oh, and also being 42.

[ScottM]

well, Lemieux and Howe aren't the greatest players to come out of their country either...

 

That's debatable, actually. Each has their share of proponents as the GOAT. Gretzky and Orr are no doubt mentioned most frequently, in that order, but those four are almost universally considered the top four in some order. I have my own opinions as to how they should be ranked, but it's hard to be dogmatic. The case can be made for Lemieux and Howe.

 

As far as Jagr is concerned, his "problem" is that he's not Canadian. The top X whatever players lists tend to be dominated by Canadians. You don't have to be the best Canadian at whatever to be in the top 5, 10, or whatever, but you pretty much do have to be at or near #1 from any other country to do so. That said, Jagr is still a great, and whether or not he's overrated is all dependent on the bar given.

[JagerMeister]

That's debatable, actually. Each has their share of proponents as the GOAT. Gretzky and Orr are no doubt mentioned most frequently, in that order, but those four are almost universally considered the top four in some order. I have my own opinions as to how they should be ranked, but it's hard to be dogmatic. The case can be made for Lemieux and Howe.

 

As far as Jagr is concerned, his "problem" is that he's not Canadian. The top X whatever players lists tend to be dominated by Canadians. You don't have to be the best Canadian at whatever to be in the top 5, 10, or whatever, but you pretty much do have to be at or near #1 from any other country to do so. That said, Jagr is still a great, and whether or not he's overrated is all dependent on the bar given.

You know, im starting to think that was a troll post, if he wanted us to waste time or fret over how wrong he was, then he succeeded, he both got us to write a paragraph about how wrong he was after all...

[JagerMeister]

And Jaromir Jagr wins the MVP for IIHF championships.....

no one actually thought he was the most valuable player..

I feel like they made him MVP because he performed pretty well for a 43 year old guy, like Nicklas lidstrom winning the Norris during his 40s....

[WordsOfWisdom]

And Jaromir Jagr wins the MVP for IIHF championships.....

no one actually thought he was the most valuable player..

I feel like they made him MVP because he performed pretty well for a 43 year old guy, like Nicklas lidstrom winning the Norris during his 40s....

 

If Jagr is your favourite player, why this thread? It comes across as a thread bashing Jagr.   ???   ???

[JamesBurger]

Jagr is extremely overrated. He only won two Stanley Cups when he was very young and was not a leader in his team, Mario Lemieux won them for him. When Jagr was a leader, he won nothing for his team. Without Lemieux he was eliminated in first or second play off round (except with Boston, but he scored 0 zero goals anyway in this post season). He was only good in regular season individual scoring in bellow the average teams, he didn't help these teams to reach any team success - he only use them for his individual. Most of his former teams were better without him - Penguins won Stanley Cup after he left, Capitals were in the finals before he came and are now better without him, Rangers are now better witout him, Philadelphia was in the final without him and year after with him they lost in second round, Dallas didnt make the play off with him, but next season without him they made it and now they are without him best in the league. New Jersey didnt make play off with him and now without him they are better and keep the wild card position. Russian Omsk was eliminated in first or second play off round with him, but year after they reached finals without him.

In Pittsburgh, Washington and New Jersey he cried for trading him. He is not a team player, he doesnt care where he play, he only cares of his individual scoring points.

He won his Art Ross Trophies only because Mario Lemieux interrupted his career. When they both played, Lemieux was always better than Jagr.

Jagr is not best european player to play in NHL - Hasek and Lidstrom were better.

[hf101]

Jagr is extremely overrated. He only won two Stanley Cups when he was very young and was not a leader in his team, Mario Lemieux won them for him. When Jagr was a leader, he won nothing for his team. Without Lemieux he was eliminated in first or second play off round (except with Boston, but he scored 0 zero goals anyway in this post season). He was only good in regular season individual scoring in bellow the average teams, he didn't help these teams to reach any team success - he only use them for his individual. Most of his former teams were better without him - Penguins won Stanley Cup after he left, Capitals were in the finals before he came and are now better without him, Rangers are now better witout him, Philadelphia was in the final without him and year after with him they lost in second round, Dallas didnt make the play off with him, but next season without him they made it and now they are without him best in the league. New Jersey didnt make play off with him and now without him they are better and keep the wild card position. Russian Omsk was eliminated in first or second play off round with him, but year after they reached finals without him.

In Pittsburgh, Washington and New Jersey he cried for trading him. He is not a team player, he doesnt care where he play, he only cares of his individual scoring points.

He won his Art Ross Trophies only because Mario Lemieux interrupted his career. When they both played, Lemieux was always better than Jagr.

Jagr is not best european player to play in NHL - Hasek and Lidstrom were better.

 

Great First Post.  Welcome.

 

I dunno about the comment though about not being a team player as when he was with the Flyers I thought his own personal work habits was great for the team as many of the Flyers joined him in his training regime.  I wish the Flyers had made him an offer to play another season as he did help make them a better team.  Maybe earlier in his career he was less of a team player, but I also do believe he is one of the reasons for the improvement in the Florida Panthers these last two seasons.

[Polaris922]

Wow... I disagree. As a guy who watched him pull some immature stuff, especially off the ice racing through town almost nightly in a Dodge Viper, I can tell you he was over his head when he entered the league. But I also watched him game in, game out. Lemieux was the better player, but a lot of Jagr's Magic on the ice was when Lemieux was on the bench. Jagr didn't stop being magical, and in some years, single handedly pushed that team into the playoffs, winning awards with Marty Straka and a player to be named later as his line mates.

No, I disagree. You can say he was a spoiled brat who often hung out at the blue line until someone passed him the puck. You can say he's take his stick and go home if he didn't get his way. You can say he was uncoachable as a person. But there's no way in hell you can say he hasn't been a great hockey player or among the best talents to ever come out of Europe.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Wow... I disagree. As a guy who watched him pull some immature stuff, especially off the ice racing through town almost nightly in a Dodge Viper, I can tell you he was over his head when he entered the league. But I also watched him game in, game out. Lemieux was the better player, but a lot of Jagr's Magic on the ice was when Lemieux was on the bench. Jagr didn't stop being magical, and in some years, single handedly pushed that team into the playoffs, winning awards with Marty Straka and a player to be named later as his line mates.

No, I disagree. You can say he was a spoiled brat who often hung out at the blue line until someone passed him the puck. You can say he's take his stick and go home if he didn't get his way. You can say he was uncoachable as a person. But there's no way in hell you can say he hasn't been a great hockey player or among the best talents to ever come out of Europe.

This is spot on.

 

Was not a Jagr fan, but he was one of the best ever in his prime and is still damn good considering his age.

[JagerMeister]

Jagr is extremely overrated. He only won two Stanley Cups when he was very young and was not a leader in his team, Mario Lemieux won them for him. When Jagr was a leader, he won nothing for his team. Without Lemieux he was eliminated in first or second play off round (except with Boston, but he scored 0 zero goals anyway in this post season). He was only good in regular season individual scoring in bellow the average teams, he didn't help these teams to reach any team success - he only use them for his individual. Most of his former teams were better without him - Penguins won Stanley Cup after he left, Capitals were in the finals before he came and are now better without him, Rangers are now better witout him, Philadelphia was in the final without him and year after with him they lost in second round, Dallas didnt make the play off with him, but next season without him they made it and now they are without him best in the league. New Jersey didnt make play off with him and now without him they are better and keep the wild card position. Russian Omsk was eliminated in first or second play off round with him, but year after they reached finals without him.

In Pittsburgh, Washington and New Jersey he cried for trading him. He is not a team player, he doesnt care where he play, he only cares of his individual scoring points.

He won his Art Ross Trophies only because Mario Lemieux interrupted his career. When they both played, Lemieux was always better than Jagr.

Jagr is not best european player to play in NHL - Hasek and Lidstrom were better.

I do believe Jagr is overrated to an extent. However, I do not fault him for his teams not progressing throughout the playoffs in the late 90s. His teams simply were not competent enough and he was the primary reason they qualified in the first place. Now, eliminating that snake bitten stint as a Bruin. These are his playoff stats

 

GP 180  G 78  A 111  P 188

 

Now he still exceeds a ppg despite playing 180 playoff games, that is rather impressive.

 

He wasn't Marcel Dionne bad.

[ScottM]

Let's put Jagr to the test and see how he scores.

 

1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?

Right after Mario Lemieux retired, there was a stretch that it might be kind of hard to peg down a single "best player." But, in that stretch, Jagr won a Hart, was runner-up twice, and won two Pearsons. Thus, I feel that it's safe to say yes here. (1)

 

2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?

From 1995-2001, he was named to the NHL first all-star team six times in seven seasons. This is an emphatic yes. (2)

 

3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

Too many to count. (3)

 

4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

Assists three times and points five. (4)

 

5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?

More than one. (5)

 

6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?

You know, some people talk about it as though Jagr had nothing to do with those titles the Penguins won in 1991 and 1992, but he was a solid contributor to the first, and gave about a point per game production in both the regular season and playoffs for the second. You have to give the guy a point here. (6)

 

7. Was he ever a team Captain?

Yes. (7)

 

8. Was he ever team Captain of a Stanley Cup winner?

No.

 

9. Did many regard him to be an excellent defensive player?

When you think Jagr, you think offense. No.

 

10. Did many regard his physical play/hitting to be an intimidating factor? (NOTE: We're not looking for pests here)

He's a big guy, but hitting isn't really his game. No.

 

11. Did he play a lot/well after he passed his prime?

The guy is one of the oldest players in the history of the league and is still contributing. Emphatically yes here. (8)

 

12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?

Many times. (9)

 

13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?

The best of the best are his company, so yes, definitely. (10)

 

14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections)

Yes, as mentioned above. (11)

 

15. Did he win a Conn Smythe Trophy? (pre-1965: see resources)

No.

 

16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)

I'm not going to count the KHL years, because those were missed by his own decision, but three lockouts have reduced his games somewhat. In 2005-06, right after the season-long lockout, he put up 123 points in an MVP-type season. If he had that season back, another award? I'm a little hesitant, but I'll say yes here. (12)

 

17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?

I don't really think you can give him this point.

 

18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played?

No.

 

Jagr scores an extremely impressive 12 by my count. Is he overrated? That depends on what the criteria is. That article that called him a top-3 all-time forward? No way. A top-10, maybe top-5 all-time at his position? Absolutely.

[JamesBurger]

Great First Post.  Welcome.

 

...but I also do believe he is one of the reasons for the improvement in the Florida Panthers these last two seasons.

In 2014/15, before Jagr came, Florida had 65 points in 61 games. In this season they have 32 points in 30 games which is exactly the same racord. So where is the improvement? I bet they would be the same or better without him - history is the proof, last example is New Jersey.

 

 

 

I do believe Jagr is overrated to an extent. However, I do not fault him for his teams not progressing throughout the playoffs in the late 90s. His teams simply were not competent enough and he was the primary reason they qualified in the first place. Now, eliminating that snake bitten stint as a Bruin. These are his playoff stats

 

GP 180  G 78  A 111  P 188

 

He scored only abou three goals in his last 50 play off games :-)

[hf101]

In 2014/15, before Jagr came, Florida had 65 points in 61 games. In this season they have 32 points in 30 games which is exactly the same racord. So where is the improvement? I bet they would be the same or better without him - history is the proof, last example is New Jersey.

 

stats don't always tell the whole story, but your point is well taken.  nice job.    

[ScottM]

So where is the improvement? I bet they would be the same or better without him

 

There's a really big problem with a comment like that: He's the team's leading scorer.