Your Top Ten Greatest Hockey Players Of All Time (Excluding Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr

[JagerMeister]

So, who do you guys think are the top ten greatest hockey players of all time. Excluding the big 4, because lets be honest, every sane hockey fan will put them in their top 4. So I guess that Buffalo fan that shall not be named and Ruxpin are the exception to this rule.

 

 

 

 

Here is my list...

1. Gretzky

2. Howe

3. Orr

4. Lemieux

5. Richard

6. Bobby H

7. Bourque

8. Lidstrom

9. Hasek

10. Roy

 

......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sarcasm emoticon is all the way down here, thats what you get for using cellphones, they are bad for the environment!!!

[yave1964]

Okay my top ten not counting the big boys:

 

1. Rocket

2. The Golden Jet

3. Messier

4. Bourque

5. Espo

6. Lidstrom

7. Yzerman

8. Dionne

9. Francis (the most underrated player of all time)

10. The Golden Brett

 

Honorable mention:

Some goalie

Jagr

Sakic

Jagr

Lafleur

Trottier

 

I have a hard time with goalies on these lists, they are really better ranked on their own lists, kind of like comparing pitchers to position players in baseball.

 

Ron Francis gets absolutely zero props for some reason, his career ended a relatively short time ago and yet he seems to have faded from memory rather quickly. People seem to forget that he is number four on the all time points list (Gonna be passed by Jagr the first week of next season) and was just a class act. He was not one to toot his own horn and shunned the limelight but he was a top tier pivotman for a long time. I may even have him a bit low.

[nossagog]

Ron Francis gets absolutely zero props for some reason, his career ended a relatively short time ago and yet he seems to have faded from memory rather quickly. People seem to forget that he is number four on the all time points list (Gonna be passed by Jagr the first week of next season) and was just a class act. He was not one to toot his own horn and shunned the limelight but he was a top tier pivotman for a long time. I may even have him a bit low.

One of the best all around centers EVER in the league.  He wasn't flashy, and didn't put up 60 goals in a season, and played in the shadow of Lemieux, that's why he's not mentioned.    Defensively near the top of the league, in the faceoff circle was one of the best of all time, and he could put up points.

 

There was a funny commercial I wish I could find about Ronny back when he was playing.  Setup is, he was probably the best faceoff guy in the league at the time.   The short commercial was about a linesman, thinking that Francis could read his mind at the faceoff dot, practicing trying to think about other things as he was going to drop the puck.  They show like 5 or 6 of him dropping pucks like that practicing, then cut to a game and show yet another clean win by Francis.   Was hilarious, and fitting.

 

As a Pens fan, the trade bringing him in is probably considered the greatest trade in our franchise history. Without that trade, there would be no cups in the 90's.

[JagerMeister]

Okay my top ten not counting the big boys:

 

1. Rocket

2. The Golden Jet

3. Messier

4. Bourque

5. Espo

6. Lidstrom

7. Yzerman

8. Dionne

9. Francis (the most underrated player of all time)

10. The Golden Brett

 

Honorable mention:

Some goalie

Jagr

Sakic

Jagr

Lafleur

Trottier

 

I have a hard time with goalies on these lists, they are really better ranked on their own lists, kind of like comparing pitchers to position players in baseball.

 

Ron Francis gets absolutely zero props for some reason, his career ended a relatively short time ago and yet he seems to have faded from memory rather quickly. People seem to forget that he is number four on the all time points list (Gonna be passed by Jagr the first week of next season) and was just a class act. He was not one to toot his own horn and shunned the limelight but he was a top tier pivotman for a long time. I may even have him a bit low.

You have a very interesting list, even though i dont agree with a few of your inductions.

WHy Yzerman over Sakic? they are quite similiar in many ways, but as much as Yzerman was a good playoff performer, Sakic was even better.

 

and i like how you gave recognition to Dionne, and actually put him over Lafleur!!! But it has to be said, Dionne only beats him in consistency during the regular season, Lafleur did not do much after those 5 amazing seasons. But again, Lafleur was also a much better playoff performer, but i guess the argument could be said that Dionne had less than stellar teams that he carried to the playoffs, shut him down, and LA kings were done for.

 

Now Francis...... as underrated as he is, i think putting him in a top 10 list is overrating him...

The guy was a complier, lets be honest, i dont think anyone considered him a top 5 player during anytime of his career. And as consistent as he was, Jagr was also consistent, but peaked much much higher than

Francis. 

 

Btw, i think Jagr already passed Francis

[Podein25]

1. Rocket

2. The Golden Jet

3. Messier

4. Bourque

5. Espo

6. Lidstrom

7. Yzerman

8. Dionne

9. Francis (the most underrated player of all time)

10. The Golden Brett

 

 

I know I'm a homer, but seriously: no Clarke?! Dionne over Clarke? I'd put Clarke in 4th behind Messier, but even Bobby Hull should be lower. Yzerman up, Espo down.

[JackStraw]

I know I'm a homer, but seriously: no Clarke?! Dionne over Clarke? I'd put Clarke in 4th behind Messier, but even Bobby Hull should be lower. Yzerman up, Espo down.

 

Brett Hull over Clarke???

[Podein25]

Brett Hull over Clarke???

 

 

I felt that went without saying, but apparently it needed to be said. 

 

I have to think that the OP, knowing this board was started by Flyers fans, is "taking the piss," as they say. Deliberately, deliberate provocation. I'd say he succeeded. 

[yave1964]

@JagerMeister

 

4th all time in scoring is 4th all time in scoring. Peak value, he might not be in the top 75 or 100, but career value the entire body of work, the Cups, the points, ect... I gotta give him props.

 

Sakic Vs. Yzerman, love that one, I really could go either way with the two of them.

 

Dionne Vs. Lafleur if they switched draft positions (The Flower drafted by the Wings traded to the Kings, Dionne drafted by Montreal) my Gut says the Canadiens would have won at least as many cups if not more.

@Podein25@JackStraw I may have missed it with Clarke and even Sittler, but I still think they are just barely on the outside of the top ten. Both were tremendous players tho. What is your list?

[yave1964]

I felt that went without saying, but apparently it needed to be said. 

 

I have to think that the OP, knowing this board was started by Flyers fans, is "taking the piss," as they say. Deliberately, deliberate provocation. I'd say he succeeded. 

No, not trying to stir or troll.

Can I be honest? Seriously??

I forgot about Clarke. I have been sitting here trying to figure out how to justify it, gonna pull out career stats, Hull with a cup with the Stars and Wings vs. Clarkes two with the Bullies, ect.... but the fact is:

I forgot about Calrke. It was five in the morning and I was on my first cup of coffee. Crap.

[Podein25]

What is your list?

 

 

Clarke.

 

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

Clarke. Clarke.

 

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

 

Clarke?

 

Clarke!

 

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

 

Clarke.

Clarke.

Clarke.

Clarke.

Clarke.

 

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke. Clarke.

 

And one more thing:

 

Clarke.

[yave1964]

I felt that went without saying, but apparently it needed to be said. 

 

I have to think that the OP, knowing this board was started by Flyers fans, is "taking the piss," as they say. Deliberately, deliberate provocation. I'd say he succeeded. 

I am sorry that you feel that way, I post in here a lot, I deliberately stay away from a lot of the Flyer talk on purpose out of concern for the Flyer fans. If you feel that I was being, in your words 'deliberately deliberate provacation' then you simply are wrong, and do not know me.

[Podein25]

I am sorry that you feel that way, I post in here a lot, I deliberately stay away from a lot of the Flyer talk on purpose out of concern for the Flyer fans. If you feel that I was being, in your words 'deliberately deliberate provacation' then you simply are wrong, and do not know me.

I apologize. I meant it all in jest and good spirit. You are an *excellent* poster. Just ignore me when I get like that.

[JackStraw]

@yave1964 - just because I feel like picking on Brett Hull, here are a few not on your list that I would put above him. Honestly, he doesn't come anywhere near my top 10, or even top 20 probably.

 

Beliveau

Forsberg

Clarke

Mikita

Gil Perreault

Crosby

Ovechkin

D Potvin

Park

Robinson

 

plus all of the guys on your HM list:

 

Some goalie

Sakic

Jagr

Lafleur

Trottier

 

I just never thought particularly highly of the Golden Brett. I would also have Esposito lower, not sure if he would make my top 10- he definitely wouldn't make my "real" top ten (the one including the big 4)

[yave1964]

I apologize. I meant it all in jest and good spirit. You are an *excellent* poster. Just ignore me when I get like that.

No problem. You are one of my favorites in here, Hell, you even turned me around on the Winnipeg Jets and they were fun to watch down the stretch. But serious, I totally forgot Clarke. Omission, not commission.

Clarke was a heck of a player, I think I would rank him somewhere around 7 or 8 on the list. The ultimate Captain that all other captains should be measured by.

[yave1964]

@JackStraw

Beliveau!! First I forgot Clarkie and then Beliveau! Never again will I post at five in the morning!

 

Forsberg no, his ankles betrayed him, but I like the rest of your list.

[Holymakinaw]

So no Greztky, Howe, Orr or Lemieux, eh?  Weird.

 

Okay.  In no particular order, my top ten all-time are........

 

 

P. Esposito

Messier

Jagr

Bourke

Roy

Lidstrom

Sakic

Francis

Dionne

Yzerman

 

[JagerMeister]

Here is my actual list. Since no one is including goalies, then im not including any.

1. Beliveau

2. Bobby H

3. Richard

4. Bourque

5. Lidstrom

6. Harvey

7. Shore

8.Lafleur

9. Esposito

10.Clarke

HM

Sakic

Jagr

Trottier

Bossy

Mikita

Morenz

Dionne

[B21]

I felt that went without saying, but apparently it needed to be said. 

 

I have to think that the OP, knowing this board was started by Flyers fans, is "taking the piss," as they say. Deliberately, deliberate provocation. I'd say he succeeded. 

 

What was the give away? 

[JagerMeister]

@JackStraw

Beliveau!! First I forgot Clarkie and then Beliveau! Never again will I post at five in the morning

Forsberg no, his ankles betrayed him, but I like the rest of your list.

No. You should just never post anything regarding top tens after your horrendous list....

Why is there no sarcasm emoticons on phones?

[yave1964]

What was the give away? 

Wow I thought we buried the hatchet a long time ago, lol. Apparently you dug it up and stuck it in my back.

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

Beliveau!! First I forgot Clarkie and then Beliveau! Never again will I post at five in the morning!

 

Forsberg no, his ankles betrayed him, but I like the rest of your list.

 

When I think about these kind of lists I tend to ignore injuries. I generally consider players at their peak, as long as that peak was a reasonable length of time (whatever "reasonable" means).

[yave1964]

When I think about these kind of lists I tend to ignore injuries. I generally consider players at their peak, as long as that peak was a reasonable length of time (whatever "reasonable" means).

Bill James in his Baseball studies stressed two separate categories:

Career value

Peak value

 

Self explanatory, the career value is the entire body of work. the break in period, the prime years and the inevitable decline phase.

Peak years are the top part of a players career usually the late twenties into the early thirties.

 

When I think of these lists, the best all time at this or that, I think of career value, the entire body of work. I respect the way that you look at it and can see the argument for doing it that way.

 

 Some folks like to combine the two, essentially looking at career value and giving extra points for peak value. Maybe that is the right way, weigh everything with extra points for peak value.

 

That is what cracks me up with the Brett Hull haters, using your method, looking at peak value, Hull scored 72, 86, 70, 54 and 50 goals over a five year period, one of the all time great goal scoring totals for a five year period.

 

Using mine, looking at career value, the whole body of work, he drilled 741 goals, good for 3rd all time behind Howe and Gretzky.

 

So either way, he is at the top of the lists.

 

Hockeyreference.com lists similarity scores, the players who were closest to each other in career value. Hulls top comps are:

 

Sakic

Yzerman

Howe

Dionne

Bobby (surprise)

Selanne

Beliveau

 

In short, the players we are all throwing around.

 

I refuse to sell Brett Hull short, he was a pure goal scorer with deficiencies sure but when it came to scoring goals both peak and career, nobody did it better. Loud mouth little punk, I always wanted someone to knock the smile off his face, even when he played for Detroit. He was Roenick but more talented. The type that people hate if he isn't playing for your team and sometimes you hate him when he is on your team. But he won a couple of cups and a Hart, he was a first team All star 3 times, is second all time in power play goals and third all time in game winners.

[JackStraw]

I refuse to sell Brett Hull short, he was a pure goal scorer with deficiencies sure but when it came to scoring goals both peak and career, nobody did it better. Loud mouth little punk, I always wanted someone to knock the smile off his face, even when he played for Detroit. He was Roenick but more talented. The type that people hate if he isn't playing for your team and sometimes you hate him when he is on your team. But he won a couple of cups and a Hart, he was a first team All star 3 times, is second all time in power play goals and third all time in game winners.

 

My beef with him was that he just wasn't that good at anything other than scoring goals. Now I realize that scoring goals is kind of a big thing in hockey, and it does kind of sound like Buddy Ryan talking about Chris Carter ("all he does is catch touchdowns"), but when trying to rate hockey players (as opposed to all time goal scorers) I just think there are other players I'd rather have on my team.

[Podein25]

No problem. You are one of my favorites in here, Hell, you even turned me around on the Winnipeg Jets and they were fun to watch down the stretch. But serious, I totally forgot Clarke. Omission, not commission.

Clarke was a heck of a player, I think I would rank him somewhere around 7 or 8 on the list. The ultimate Captain that all other captains should be measured by.

 

 

Understood. The thing I've always said to people is that Clarkie was an A-hole, but he was our A-hole. It is good that people appreciate the kind of leader he was on the ice. I've always been able to forgive him for not being able to translate that leadership to the boardroom. 

 

As for the Jets, I'm glad I was able to persuade you. I think we may still differ in our opinion of Trouba, but in time I will have you convinced that you're wrong there too 

[B21]

Wow I thought we buried the hatchet a long time ago, lol. Apparently you dug it up and stuck it in my back.

 

Not talking about you.